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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #119404 > unrolled thread

Re: APFS on HDD

Started byrs99tl@gmail.com
First post2018-11-09 17:32 -0800
Last post2018-11-11 13:04 -0500
Articles 20 on this page of 83 — 14 participants

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  Re: APFS on HDD rs99tl@gmail.com - 2018-11-09 17:32 -0800
    Re: APFS on HDD Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-11-10 14:42 +1300
      Re: APFS on HDD RSORLANDO <rs99tl@gmail.com> - 2018-11-09 18:15 -0800
      Re: APFS on HDD Elden <usenet@moondog.org> - 2018-11-09 21:27 -0800
        Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-10 18:52 +1300
          Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-10 09:11 -0500
            Re: APFS on HDD Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-11-11 10:08 +1300
              Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-10 17:41 -0500
                Re: APFS on HDD nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2018-11-10 19:18 -0500
                Re: APFS on HDD Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-11-11 18:03 +1300
                  Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-11 13:21 -0500
                    Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-12 03:09 +0000
                      Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-12 02:10 -0500
                        Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-12 12:32 +0000
                        Re: APFS on HDD Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-11-13 08:14 +1300
                          Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-12 20:29 -0500
                            Re: APFS on HDD Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-11-13 18:15 +1300
                              Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-13 09:20 -0500
                      Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-12 02:30 -0500
                        Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-12 12:45 +0000
                          Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-12 18:31 -0500
                            Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-13 00:04 +0000
                            Re: APFS on HDD Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-11-13 13:46 +1300
            Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-11 15:55 +1300
              Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-10 23:38 -0500
              Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-11 07:18 +0000
                Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-11 12:39 -0500
                  Re: APFS on HDD Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-11-12 09:10 +1300
                    Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-11 19:26 -0500
                      Re: APFS on HDD Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-11-12 16:20 +1300
                        Re: APFS on HDD J Burns <burns@nospam.com> - 2018-11-12 01:46 -0500
              Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-14 02:05 +1300
          Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-11 07:13 +0000
            Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-12 02:10 -0500
          Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-12 02:02 -0500
            Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-12 21:57 +1300
              Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-12 18:26 -0500
                Re: APFS on HDD Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2018-11-13 01:12 +0000
                  Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-12 23:44 -0500
                    Re: APFS on HDD Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2018-11-13 18:17 +0000
                Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-13 19:38 +1300
                  Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-13 10:21 +0000
                  Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-13 05:55 -0500
                    Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-14 01:28 +1300
                    Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-13 13:40 +0000
                      Re: APFS on HDD Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2018-11-13 18:18 +0000
                  Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-13 05:57 -0500
                    Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-14 01:28 +1300
                      Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-13 13:27 -0500
                        Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-14 13:31 +1300
                          Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-14 15:33 -0500
                            Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-15 12:04 +1300
                              Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-15 00:35 -0500
                                Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-15 22:24 +1300
                                  Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-15 12:39 -0500
                                    Re: APFS on HDD Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2018-11-16 13:45 -0500
                                      Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-16 20:13 -0500
                                        Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-18 18:37 +1300
                                          Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-18 17:40 -0500
                                            Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-19 13:42 +1300
                                            Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-19 02:08 +0000
                                              Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-19 15:52 +1300
                                                Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-18 22:31 -0500
                                                  Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-20 13:23 +1300
                                                    Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-19 23:32 -0500
                                                      Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-20 22:05 +1300
                                                        Re: APFS on HDD "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org> - 2018-11-20 09:36 +0000
                                                          Re: APFS on HDD André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2018-11-20 06:12 -0700
                                                            Re: APFS on HDD "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org> - 2018-11-20 14:28 +0000
                                                              Re: APFS on HDD nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2018-11-20 09:36 -0500
                                                          Re: APFS on HDD nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2018-11-20 08:57 -0500
                                                            Re: APFS on HDD "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org> - 2018-11-20 14:34 +0000
                                                              Re: APFS on HDD nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2018-11-20 09:36 -0500
                                                Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-19 05:46 +0000
                                                  Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-19 02:27 -0500
                                                    Re: APFS on HDD Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2018-11-19 11:42 -0500
                                                  Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-20 13:23 +1300
                                                    Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-19 21:57 -0500
                                                      Re: APFS on HDD dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2018-11-20 16:28 +1300
                                                        Re: APFS on HDD JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-11-21 13:24 -0500
                                            Re: APFS on HDD Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid> - 2018-11-19 11:34 -0500
                    Re: APFS on HDD Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2018-11-13 13:41 +0000
    Re: APFS on HDD Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2018-11-11 13:04 -0500

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#119404 — Re: APFS on HDD

Fromrs99tl@gmail.com
Date2018-11-09 17:32 -0800
SubjectRe: APFS on HDD
Message-ID<66ab0cd3-19b3-45ad-b37d-6d52c2f203fb@googlegroups.com>
On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 12:33:28 PM UTC-4, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2017-10-01 11:58, Király wrote:
> > I know that APFS is designed for SSDs, but it can be used on HDDs too.
> > Is anyone running APFS on their HDD boot drive? I'm trying to decide if
> > I should convert my 2009 iMac's HDD to APFS but I'm not sure if there
> > are any net advantages. Online reviews are mixed. Thanks.
> 
> It's not available for HD or even Fusion drives.  No guarantee that it 
> will be.
> 
> https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT208018

The local Apple Store here in Altamonte Springs, Florida just did a clean install of Mohave 10.14.2 on my iMac 10.13.6 High Sierra with a 2Tb Fusion Drive (HDD). The hardware report confirms that the two SSD cards and the main 2Tb Fusion HDD was indeed formatted as an APFS drive. I bought this iMac spec'd up to near "Pro" level with an I7 4.2 Ghz processor and specifically stated this particular iMac was compatible with HSF/APFS formating. Awesome, fast machine...

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#119405

FromYour Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date2018-11-10 14:42 +1300
Message-ID<ps5d1g$a2v$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#119404
On 2018-11-10 01:32:02 +0000, rs99tl@gmail.com said:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 12:33:28 PM UTC-4, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2017-10-01 11:58, Király wrote:
>>> 
>>> I know that APFS is designed for SSDs, but it can be used on HDDs too.
>>> Is anyone running APFS on their HDD boot drive? I'm trying to decide if
>>> I should convert my 2009 iMac's HDD to APFS but I'm not sure if there
>>> are any net advantages. Online reviews are mixed. Thanks.
>> 
>> It's not available for HD or even Fusion drives.  No guarantee that it will be.
>> https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT208018
> 
> The local Apple Store here in Altamonte Springs, Florida just did a 
> clean install of Mohave 10.14.2 on my iMac 10.13.6 High Sierra with a 
> 2Tb Fusion Drive (HDD). The hardware report confirms that the two SSD 
> cards and the main 2Tb Fusion HDD was indeed formatted as an APFS 
> drive. I bought this iMac spec'd up to near "Pro" level with an I7 4.2 
> Ghz processor and specifically stated this particular iMac was 
> compatible with HSF/APFS formating. Awesome, fast machine...

During some of the beta testing of High Sierra, APFS was available for 
hard drives and Fusion drives, but that support was dropped from the 
official release due to some issues, so only SSDs were converted.

Apple has managed to fix those issues, and as of Mojave, Apple has made 
APFS the standard disk format for all drive types, including hard 
drives and Fusion drives.

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#119406

FromRSORLANDO <rs99tl@gmail.com>
Date2018-11-09 18:15 -0800
Message-ID<49c92da5-9e0c-4875-b47d-3e48a13f9df0@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#119405
On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 8:42:14 PM UTC-5, Your Name wrote:
> On 2018-11-10 01:32:02 +0000, rs99tl@gmail.com said:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 12:33:28 PM UTC-4, Alan Browne wrote:
> >> On 2017-10-01 11:58, Király wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> I know that APFS is designed for SSDs, but it can be used on HDDs too.
> >>> Is anyone running APFS on their HDD boot drive? I'm trying to decide if
> >>> I should convert my 2009 iMac's HDD to APFS but I'm not sure if there
> >>> are any net advantages. Online reviews are mixed. Thanks.
> >> 
> >> It's not available for HD or even Fusion drives.  No guarantee that it will be.
> >> https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT208018
> > 
> > The local Apple Store here in Altamonte Springs, Florida just did a 
> > clean install of Mohave 10.14.2 on my iMac 10.13.6 High Sierra with a 
> > 2Tb Fusion Drive (HDD). The hardware report confirms that the two SSD 
> > cards and the main 2Tb Fusion HDD was indeed formatted as an APFS 
> > drive. I bought this iMac spec'd up to near "Pro" level with an I7 4.2 
> > Ghz processor and specifically stated this particular iMac was 
> > compatible with HSF/APFS formating. Awesome, fast machine...
> 
> During some of the beta testing of High Sierra, APFS was available for 
> hard drives and Fusion drives, but that support was dropped from the 
> official release due to some issues, so only SSDs were converted.
> 
> Apple has managed to fix those issues, and as of Mojave, Apple has made 
> APFS the standard disk format for all drive types, including hard 
> drives and Fusion drives.

This is indeed true! I bought an Imac 2 months ago seriously upgraded but with a Fusion HDD, 2 Tb with two included SSD's. A 120Gb SSD, and a 200Gb SSD showing as 1, 2Tb Fusion HDD. It came as High Sierra 10.13.6, HSF+ Ready to be formatted to APFS.  2 days ago I brought it to my local Apple Store to have the Fusion drive erased and had a clean install of Mohave, 10.14.x.
When I returned, I looked at the hardware details and it shows the 2 SSD's and the 2tb Fusion drive formatted as APFS. Both SSD's & the 2Tb Fusion HDD drive show as the singular MAC Drive.
I had a cloned bootable external drive that contained my High Sierra complete system on it. During setup, I was prompted to use this drive as the source for the migration Assistant to copy my High Sierra system over onto the new clean install of Mohave. Talk about a "turn key" operation! Worked perfectly! Here's what I lost: 2 passwords for two Airmail 3 email accounts, and the custom Icon I had used for the original High Sierra Desktop "Mac HDD" alias. I'm 70 years old, just abandoned Windows because of OS10, and am way beyond delight with all this sofar! I wasted my life on windows!
 

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#119418

FromElden <usenet@moondog.org>
Date2018-11-09 21:27 -0800
Message-ID<0001HW.2196A3D800D19A6370000D2122EF@news.giganews.com>
In reply to#119405
On Nov 9, 2018, Your Name wrote:
>
> During some of the beta testing of High Sierra, APFS was available for
> hard drives and Fusion drives, but that support was dropped from the
> official release due to some issues, so only SSDs were converted.
>
> Apple has managed to fix those issues, and as of Mojave, Apple has made
> APFS the standard disk format for all drive types, including hard
> drives and Fusion drives.

I haven’t heard. Can you use an APFS drive for a time machine backup 
target? I believe originally one could not.

-- 
-=Elden=-

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#119420

Fromdempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson)
Date2018-11-10 18:52 +1300
Message-ID<1ny2c51.bdcrtc1ehzkc6N%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>
In reply to#119418
Elden <usenet@moondog.org> wrote:

> On Nov 9, 2018, Your Name wrote:
> >
> > During some of the beta testing of High Sierra, APFS was available for
> > hard drives and Fusion drives, but that support was dropped from the
> > official release due to some issues, so only SSDs were converted.
> >
> > Apple has managed to fix those issues, and as of Mojave, Apple has made
> > APFS the standard disk format for all drive types, including hard
> > drives and Fusion drives.
> 
> I haven't heard. Can you use an APFS drive for a time machine backup 
> target? I believe originally one could not.

No, Time Machine drives are still HFS+.

They might be ready to start using APFS on Time Machine backup drives in
macOS 10.15, but probably only for a new or erased backup drive as it
would be too difficult to convert the tangled web of hard links on an
existing backup drive into a snapshot/clone-based model for APFS.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#119426

FromJ Burns <burns@nospam.com>
Date2018-11-10 09:11 -0500
Message-ID<ps6ouk$e8u$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#119420
On 11/10/18 12:52 AM, David Empson wrote:
> Elden <usenet@moondog.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 9, 2018, Your Name wrote:
>>>
>>> During some of the beta testing of High Sierra, APFS was available for
>>> hard drives and Fusion drives, but that support was dropped from the
>>> official release due to some issues, so only SSDs were converted.
>>>
>>> Apple has managed to fix those issues, and as of Mojave, Apple has made
>>> APFS the standard disk format for all drive types, including hard
>>> drives and Fusion drives.
>>
>> I haven't heard. Can you use an APFS drive for a time machine backup
>> target? I believe originally one could not.
> 
> No, Time Machine drives are still HFS+.
> 
> They might be ready to start using APFS on Time Machine backup drives in
> macOS 10.15, but probably only for a new or erased backup drive as it
> would be too difficult to convert the tangled web of hard links on an
> existing backup drive into a snapshot/clone-based model for APFS.
> 
I'm thinking of getting a 2018 mini and keeping my 2012 mini as a 
backup. I want to use CCC to keep to keep the files on the backup up to 
date. Should I reformat the 2012 as APFS? (The 2012 has a spinning disk, 
but I may install an SSD.)

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#119443

FromYour Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date2018-11-11 10:08 +1300
Message-ID<ps7hbh$1koc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#119426
On 2018-11-10 14:11:30 +0000, J Burns said:

> On 11/10/18 12:52 AM, David Empson wrote:
>> Elden <usenet@moondog.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Nov 9, 2018, Your Name wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> During some of the beta testing of High Sierra, APFS was available for
>>>> hard drives and Fusion drives, but that support was dropped from the
>>>> official release due to some issues, so only SSDs were converted.
>>>> 
>>>> Apple has managed to fix those issues, and as of Mojave, Apple has made
>>>> APFS the standard disk format for all drive types, including hard
>>>> drives and Fusion drives.
>>> 
>>> I haven't heard. Can you use an APFS drive for a time machine backup
>>> target? I believe originally one could not.
>> 
>> No, Time Machine drives are still HFS+.
>> 
>> They might be ready to start using APFS on Time Machine backup drives in
>> macOS 10.15, but probably only for a new or erased backup drive as it
>> would be too difficult to convert the tangled web of hard links on an
>> existing backup drive into a snapshot/clone-based model for APFS.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting a 2018 mini and keeping my 2012 mini as a 
> backup. I want to use CCC to keep to keep the files on the backup up to 
> date. Should I reformat the 2012 as APFS? (The 2012 has a spinning 
> disk, but I may install an SSD.)

If you're backing up individual files and folders, then the format od 
the backup drive is irrelevant to any good piece of backup software 
that can automatically copy the real file when it encounters an alias / 
shortcut ... otherwise you could end up with a backup of the alias / 
shortcut istself, but not the real file it points to. I haven't ever 
looked into what Carbon Copy Cloner does with aliases / shortcuts since 
I clone the whole drive.

If you're first cloning the entire drive and then doing regular sync 
backups, then the backup drive will be the same as the source drive 
anyway. The problem with this is that the 2012 Mac Mini may not be able 
to boot the new 2018 Mac Mini's version of the OS, so it would be a 
data backup, but not a usable computer (the 2012 Mac Mini would 
basically just be an expensive external drive).

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#119445

FromJ Burns <burns@nospam.com>
Date2018-11-10 17:41 -0500
Message-ID<ps7mqh$8a7$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#119443
On 11/10/18 4:08 PM, Your Name wrote:
> On 2018-11-10 14:11:30 +0000, J Burns said:
> 
>> On 11/10/18 12:52 AM, David Empson wrote:
>>> Elden <usenet@moondog.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, Your Name wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> During some of the beta testing of High Sierra, APFS was available for
>>>>> hard drives and Fusion drives, but that support was dropped from the
>>>>> official release due to some issues, so only SSDs were converted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple has managed to fix those issues, and as of Mojave, Apple has 
>>>>> made
>>>>> APFS the standard disk format for all drive types, including hard
>>>>> drives and Fusion drives.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't heard. Can you use an APFS drive for a time machine backup
>>>> target? I believe originally one could not.
>>>
>>> No, Time Machine drives are still HFS+.
>>>
>>> They might be ready to start using APFS on Time Machine backup drives in
>>> macOS 10.15, but probably only for a new or erased backup drive as it
>>> would be too difficult to convert the tangled web of hard links on an
>>> existing backup drive into a snapshot/clone-based model for APFS.
>>
>> I'm thinking of getting a 2018 mini and keeping my 2012 mini as a 
>> backup. I want to use CCC to keep to keep the files on the backup up 
>> to date. Should I reformat the 2012 as APFS? (The 2012 has a spinning 
>> disk, but I may install an SSD.)
> 
> If you're backing up individual files and folders, then the format od 
> the backup drive is irrelevant to any good piece of backup software that 
> can automatically copy the real file when it encounters an alias / 
> shortcut ... otherwise you could end up with a backup of the alias / 
> shortcut istself, but not the real file it points to. I haven't ever 
> looked into what Carbon Copy Cloner does with aliases / shortcuts since 
> I clone the whole drive.
> 
> If you're first cloning the entire drive and then doing regular sync 
> backups, then the backup drive will be the same as the source drive 
> anyway. The problem with this is that the 2012 Mac Mini may not be able 
> to boot the new 2018 Mac Mini's version of the OS, so it would be a data 
> backup, but not a usable computer (the 2012 Mac Mini would basically 
> just be an expensive external drive).
> 
> 
I'm confused about that. Years ago, I had PPC with a 603 running System 
8. Relatives had a G4 running OS X. I could put my system folder and 
other files on a Firewire disk, take it to their house, and boot their 
Mac as if it were my own.

Would that not work between Intel minis?

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#119446

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2018-11-10 19:18 -0500
Message-ID<101120181918180722%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#119445
In article <ps7mqh$8a7$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns@nospam.com>
wrote:

> > If you're first cloning the entire drive and then doing regular sync 
> > backups, then the backup drive will be the same as the source drive 
> > anyway. The problem with this is that the 2012 Mac Mini may not be able 
> > to boot the new 2018 Mac Mini's version of the OS, so it would be a data 
> > backup, but not a usable computer (the 2012 Mac Mini would basically 
> > just be an expensive external drive).
> > 
> I'm confused about that. Years ago, I had PPC with a 603 running System 
> 8. Relatives had a G4 running OS X. I could put my system folder and 
> other files on a Firewire disk, take it to their house, and boot their 
> Mac as if it were my own.
> 
> Would that not work between Intel minis?

he's wrong yet again. there is no issue, although it's not necessarily
desirable.

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#119452

FromYour Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date2018-11-11 18:03 +1300
Message-ID<ps8d7t$r49$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#119445
On 2018-11-10 22:41:20 +0000, J Burns said:
> On 11/10/18 4:08 PM, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2018-11-10 14:11:30 +0000, J Burns said:
>>> On 11/10/18 12:52 AM, David Empson wrote:
>>>> Elden <usenet@moondog.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Nov 9, 2018, Your Name wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> During some of the beta testing of High Sierra, APFS was available for
>>>>>> hard drives and Fusion drives, but that support was dropped from the
>>>>>> official release due to some issues, so only SSDs were converted.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Apple has managed to fix those issues, and as of Mojave, Apple has made
>>>>>> APFS the standard disk format for all drive types, including hard
>>>>>> drives and Fusion drives.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I haven't heard. Can you use an APFS drive for a time machine backup
>>>>> target? I believe originally one could not.
>>>> 
>>>> No, Time Machine drives are still HFS+.
>>>> 
>>>> They might be ready to start using APFS on Time Machine backup drives in
>>>> macOS 10.15, but probably only for a new or erased backup drive as it
>>>> would be too difficult to convert the tangled web of hard links on an
>>>> existing backup drive into a snapshot/clone-based model for APFS.
>>> 
>>> I'm thinking of getting a 2018 mini and keeping my 2012 mini as a 
>>> backup. I want to use CCC to keep to keep the files on the backup up to 
>>> date. Should I reformat the 2012 as APFS? (The 2012 has a spinning 
>>> disk, but I may install an SSD.)
>> 
>> If you're backing up individual files and folders, then the format od 
>> the backup drive is irrelevant to any good piece of backup software 
>> that can automatically copy the real file when it encounters an alias / 
>> shortcut ... otherwise you could end up with a backup of the alias / 
>> shortcut istself, but not the real file it points to. I haven't ever 
>> looked into what Carbon Copy Cloner does with aliases / shortcuts since 
>> I clone the whole drive.
>> 
>> If you're first cloning the entire drive and then doing regular sync 
>> backups, then the backup drive will be the same as the source drive 
>> anyway. The problem with this is that the 2012 Mac Mini may not be able 
>> to boot the new 2018 Mac Mini's version of the OS, so it would be a 
>> data backup, but not a usable computer (the 2012 Mac Mini would 
>> basically just be an expensive external drive).
> 
> I'm confused about that. Years ago, I had PPC with a 603 running System 
> 8. Relatives had a G4 running OS X. I could put my system folder and 
> other files on a Firewire disk, take it to their house, and boot their 
> Mac as if it were my own.
> 
> Would that not work between Intel minis?

It depends on the specific Mac models and what versions of the OS they 
can use. An older Mac might not be able to run the newer macOS version.

In your past example, the G4 can only use System 8.6 or newer, so if 
your PPC603 had been using System 8.0 you wouln't had been able to boot 
the G4 with that drive. Vice versa, if the G4 had been upgraded to OS X 
10.3, then you wouldn't have been able to boot the PPC603 with that 
drive.

In this case you're talking abot a 2018 Mac Mini running Mojave and a 
2012 Mac Mini. Apple's list says "late 2012 or newer" for the Mac Mini, 
so you could be okay ... at the moment.

BUT,
the 2018 Mac Mini will be able to run macOS 10.15 when it is released 
(probably next year), while the 2012 Mac Mini may well get dropped off 
the compatibility list. At that point you won't be able to boot the 
2012 Mac Mini using the 2018 Mac Mini's backup data.

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#119467

FromJ Burns <burns@nospam.com>
Date2018-11-11 13:21 -0500
Message-ID<ps9rvq$2b5$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#119452
On 11/11/18 12:03 AM, Your Name wrote:
> In your past example, the G4 can only use System 8.6 or newer, so if 
> your PPC603 had been using System 8.0 you wouln't had been able to boot 
> the G4 with that drive. Vice versa, if the G4 had been upgraded to OS X 
> 10.3, then you wouldn't have been able to boot the PPC603 with that drive.

The Mac OS has been going downhill ever since 8.6 was put down.

Sherlock 2.1, DrawSprocket 1.1.4, Plaintalk 1.5.4, Open Transport 2.0.3, 
ColorSync 2.6.1, Disk Copy 6.3.3, Multiprocessing API Library, Virtual 
Memory Manager, Dvorak Keyboard Layouts 1.0, Apple Help 1.2, USB 
Interface Module, and much, much more!

Gil Amelio had pointed the ship in the right direction. OS 8.6 was a 
thoroughbred racehorse. That other guy came back and persuaded his fan 
base that Clydesdales were the wave of the future. He persuaded the 
staff by his arbitrary use of the term "You're fired," which The Donald 
later attempted to copyright. Amelio left to join the Woz.

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#119479

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2018-11-12 03:09 +0000
Message-ID<slrnpuhrmv.cl1.g.kreme@Snow.local>
In reply to#119467
In message <ps9rvq$2b5$1@dont-email.me> J Burns <burns@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 11/11/18 12:03 AM, Your Name wrote:
>> In your past example, the G4 can only use System 8.6 or newer, so if 
>> your PPC603 had been using System 8.0 you wouln't had been able to boot 
>> the G4 with that drive. Vice versa, if the G4 had been upgraded to OS X 
>> 10.3, then you wouldn't have been able to boot the PPC603 with that drive.

> The Mac OS has been going downhill ever since 8.6 was put down.

Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
better since then.

> Gil Amelio had pointed the ship in the right direction.

Directly an irrevocably into bankruptcy.

> OS 8.6 was a thoroughbred racehorse. That other guy came back and
> persuaded his fan base that Clydesdales were the wave of the future.
> He persuaded the staff by his arbitrary use of the term "You're
> fired," 

You are entirely delusional. There would be no Apple without Jobs'
reluctant return.

-- 
Rid yourself of doubt -- or should you? -George Carlin

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#119485

FromJ Burns <burns@nospam.com>
Date2018-11-12 02:10 -0500
Message-ID<psb917$bum$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#119479
On 11/11/18 10:09 PM, Lewis wrote:
>> The Mac OS has been going downhill ever since 8.6 was put down.

> Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
> massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
> better since then.
> 
Massive? You may be thinking of Clydesdales. Beautiful animals, but not 
racehorses like System 8.6.

When you say "massive leap over," you may be thinking of Warmbloods. 
Many people confuse them with Clydesdales, but, believe it or not, 
they're 1/4 ton lighter.

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#119492

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2018-11-12 12:32 +0000
Message-ID<slrnpuism4.2jnq.g.kreme@Snow.local>
In reply to#119485
In message <psb917$bum$1@dont-email.me> J Burns <burns@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 11/11/18 10:09 PM, Lewis wrote:
>>> The Mac OS has been going downhill ever since 8.6 was put down.

>> Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
>> massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
>> better since then.
>> 
> Massive? You may be thinking of Clydesdales. Beautiful animals, but not 
> racehorses like System 8.6.

Nope, you're delusional.

> When you say "massive leap over," you may be thinking of Warmbloods. 
> Many people confuse them with Clydesdales, but, believe it or not, 
> they're 1/4 ton lighter.

I got much more done, and much more quickly on 10.0 and 10.1, neither of
which were fast, than I ever did in 6, 7, 8, or 9. The ability to simply
drop to the command line was transformative and gave you access to tools
that made short work of tasks that were extremely tedious in the GUI.

-- 
Battlemage? That's not a profession. It barely qualifies as a hobby.
'Battlemage' is about impressive a title as 'Lord of the Dance'. <PAUSE>
I'm adding Lord of the Dance to my titles.

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#119502

FromYour Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date2018-11-13 08:14 +1300
Message-ID<pscjfb$1tid$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#119485
On 2018-11-12 07:10:30 +0000, J Burns said:
> On 11/11/18 10:09 PM, Lewis wrote:
>>> 
>>> The Mac OS has been going downhill ever since 8.6 was put down.
>> 
>> Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
>> massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
>> better since then.
> 
> Massive? You may be thinking of Clydesdales. Beautiful animals, but not 
> racehorses like System 8.6.
> 
> When you say "massive leap over," you may be thinking of Warmbloods. 
> Many people confuse them with Clydesdales, but, believe it or not, 
> they're 1/4 ton lighter.

Although 10.1 and 10.2 are usable, Mac OS X didn't even get close to 
matching OS 8 and 9 until at least 10.3, and it took longer to regain 
some of the lost features (I'm not sure it has even regained them all 
in 10.13!)

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#119512

FromJ Burns <burns@nospam.com>
Date2018-11-12 20:29 -0500
Message-ID<psd9d5$atq$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#119502
On 11/12/18 2:14 PM, Your Name wrote:
> On 2018-11-12 07:10:30 +0000, J Burns said:
>> On 11/11/18 10:09 PM, Lewis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The Mac OS has been going downhill ever since 8.6 was put down.
>>>
>>> Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
>>> massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
>>> better since then.
>>
>> Massive? You may be thinking of Clydesdales. Beautiful animals, but 
>> not racehorses like System 8.6.
>>
>> When you say "massive leap over," you may be thinking of Warmbloods. 
>> Many people confuse them with Clydesdales, but, believe it or not, 
>> they're 1/4 ton lighter.
> 
> Although 10.1 and 10.2 are usable, Mac OS X didn't even get close to 
> matching OS 8 and 9 until at least 10.3, and it took longer to regain 
> some of the lost features (I'm not sure it has even regained them all in 
> 10.13!)
> 
> 
There was a major disappointment. Peter Buckland's masterpiece, Crystal 
Quest, wouldn't run on System 8.

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#119514

FromYour Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date2018-11-13 18:15 +1300
Message-ID<psdmli$1icq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#119512
On 2018-11-13 01:29:08 +0000, J Burns said:

> On 11/12/18 2:14 PM, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2018-11-12 07:10:30 +0000, J Burns said:
>>> On 11/11/18 10:09 PM, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Mac OS has been going downhill ever since 8.6 was put down.
>>>> 
>>>> Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
>>>> massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
>>>> better since then.
>>> 
>>> Massive? You may be thinking of Clydesdales. Beautiful animals, but not 
>>> racehorses like System 8.6.
>>> 
>>> When you say "massive leap over," you may be thinking of Warmbloods. 
>>> Many people confuse them with Clydesdales, but, believe it or not, 
>>> they're 1/4 ton lighter.
>> 
>> Although 10.1 and 10.2 are usable, Mac OS X didn't even get close to 
>> matching OS 8 and 9 until at least 10.3, and it took longer to regain 
>> some of the lost features (I'm not sure it has even regained them all 
>> in 10.13!)
>> 
>> 
> There was a major disappointment. Peter Buckland's masterpiece, Crystal 
> Quest, wouldn't run on System 8.

Patrick Buckland. According to the Macintosh Garden page, Crystal Quest 
does run on System 8 and 9, but you don't get any sound.
<http://macintoshgarden.org/games/crystal-quest>

Same problem with some other games as the OS was upgraded. Even under 
OS X some old games lose their sound on newer versions of the OS. 
Sometimes it's because the apps don't follow the rules, and sometimes 
it's because of changes Apple has made.

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#119526

FromJ Burns <burns@nospam.com>
Date2018-11-13 09:20 -0500
Message-ID<psemj1$fom$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#119514
On 11/13/18 12:15 AM, Your Name wrote:
> On 2018-11-13 01:29:08 +0000, J Burns said:
> 
>> On 11/12/18 2:14 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>> On 2018-11-12 07:10:30 +0000, J Burns said:
>>>> On 11/11/18 10:09 PM, Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Mac OS has been going downhill ever since 8.6 was put down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
>>>>> massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
>>>>> better since then.
>>>>
>>>> Massive? You may be thinking of Clydesdales. Beautiful animals, but 
>>>> not racehorses like System 8.6.
>>>>
>>>> When you say "massive leap over," you may be thinking of Warmbloods. 
>>>> Many people confuse them with Clydesdales, but, believe it or not, 
>>>> they're 1/4 ton lighter.
>>>
>>> Although 10.1 and 10.2 are usable, Mac OS X didn't even get close to 
>>> matching OS 8 and 9 until at least 10.3, and it took longer to regain 
>>> some of the lost features (I'm not sure it has even regained them all 
>>> in 10.13!)
>>>
>>>
>> There was a major disappointment. Peter Buckland's masterpiece, 
>> Crystal Quest, wouldn't run on System 8.
> 
> Patrick Buckland. According to the Macintosh Garden page, Crystal Quest 
> does run on System 8 and 9, but you don't get any sound.
> <http://macintoshgarden.org/games/crystal-quest>
> 
> Same problem with some other games as the OS was upgraded. Even under OS 
> X some old games lose their sound on newer versions of the OS. Sometimes 
> it's because the apps don't follow the rules, and sometimes it's because 
> of changes Apple has made.
> 
> 
Patrick! That's much better than Peter. In The Avengers, Patrick was the 
actor who drove the Bentley. It was well worth tuning in to see Mrs. 
Peel, but my true love was the Bentley, winner at Le Mans in 1924, 1927, 
1928, 1929, and 1930, after which they dropped out to give others a 
chance. That's how I felt about System 8.6.

(The Bently was also like the Mac mini in that they'd sell you the 
chassis, and you'd have it delivered to a coach builder to put on a 
mouse, keyboard, and monitor.)

The one obnoxious thing about Mrs. Peel was her choice of wheels. If she 
hadn't been so darn smug about it, I would have felt sorry for her. 
Lotus designed the Elan with Ford parts to prove they could build 
something even cheaper than the Beetle. Because of the Lotus emblem, 
people assumed it was a race car. Some even entered Elans in races, 
which horrified Lotus. Eventually, Lotus came out with an upgrade kit, 
costing more than the car, to make it a little better suited to the race 
track.

That sounds like OS X. Neither could run Patrick Buckland's Crystal 
Quest, unless maybe there was a version of Sheepshaver for the Elan.

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#119487

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2018-11-12 02:30 -0500
Message-ID<b_9GD.529014$OM2.43883@fx37.iad>
In reply to#119479
On 2018-11-11 22:09, Lewis wrote:

> Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
> massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
> better since then.

Snow Leopard was the peak of OS-X before Apple started to thinker for
marketing purposes and broke much stuff.


> Directly an irrevocably into bankruptcy.

didn't Amelio admit defeat and brough in Jobs along with Next?

It seems to me that Sculley is the one that steered the ship in the
wrong direction. Amelio may not


> You are entirely delusional. There would be no Apple without Jobs'
> reluctant return.

"reluctant" ?  I sincerely doubt it. He carefully planned/executed his
return once Amelio opened the door, and committed to full time only once
he was assured board members supported him instead of waiting to throw
knuves at his back as happened in the 80s. (and smartly didn't cut ties
with his then current jons until he was sure the part time gig at Apple
was secure).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#119493

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2018-11-12 12:45 +0000
Message-ID<slrnpuitfm.2jnq.g.kreme@Snow.local>
In reply to#119487
In message <b_9GD.529014$OM2.43883@fx37.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2018-11-11 22:09, Lewis wrote:

>> Ahahahahahahahaha! You silly silly person. Even Mac OS X 10.0 was a
>> massive leap over Mac OS 8 (or 9), and OS X has gotten considerably
>> better since then.

> Snow Leopard was the peak of OS-X before Apple started to thinker for
> marketing purposes and broke much stuff.


>> Directly an irrevocably into bankruptcy.

> didn't Amelio admit defeat and brough in Jobs along with Next?

> It seems to me that Sculley is the one that steered the ship in the
> wrong direction. Amelio may not


>> You are entirely delusional. There would be no Apple without Jobs'
>> reluctant return.

> "reluctant" ?

Absolutely.

> I sincerely doubt it.

Facts are your kryptonite. The details are well known and most of us
lived through that period and remember it well.

> He carefully planned/executed his return once Amelio opened the door,

You are delusional. When Apple bought Next Jobs was not part of the
deal. He was busy with Pixar, which was busy making a little film called
Toy Story. Apple wanted Jobs to come back, and he didn't want to,. but
the deal was contingent on his being available, so he agreed to be a
consultant.

Apple asked him to step in while they looked for a CEO, and he agreed to
do it on an interim basis, thus his self-styled title of 'iCEO'. In
fact, the only thing Jobs got from the sale of NeXT was 1.5 million
nearly worthless shares of Apple. This happened months after Apple closed
the deal on NeXT.

> and committed to full time only once he was assured board members

You making shit up doesn't make it true.

> supported him instead of waiting to throw knuves at his back as
> happened in the 80s. (and smartly didn't cut ties with his then
> current jons until he was sure the part time gig at Apple was secure).

Where the hell do you get this utter crap? Jobs stayed in charge of
Pixar until Disney bought it a few years before his death, making him
Disney's largest shareholder.

-- 
Nothing says poor craftsmanship more than wrinkled duct tape.

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