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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #47954 > unrolled thread
| Started by | bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-08-23 16:42 -0700 |
| Last post | 2013-09-15 02:26 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 88 — 20 participants |
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alternative mail clients for Mac bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2013-08-23 16:42 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2013-08-23 16:51 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-08-24 15:13 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2013-08-23 16:53 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac billy@MIX.COM - 2013-08-24 15:25 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-08-25 02:32 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac billy@MIX.COM - 2013-09-01 01:12 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac billy@MIX.COM - 2013-09-07 23:15 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2013-08-24 23:12 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-08-23 18:32 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac howdy@doody.com - 2013-08-24 07:01 -0500
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-02 12:41 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac William Munny <will@bigwhisky.net> - 2013-08-24 17:24 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-09-01 14:28 +1200
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-31 23:03 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2013-08-31 20:29 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-09-01 15:33 +1200
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-01 00:23 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2013-09-01 00:38 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-01 00:54 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-08-31 21:55 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-09-02 01:15 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-01 22:46 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-09-01 22:22 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-02 08:22 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-02 08:56 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-02 10:02 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2013-09-02 14:28 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-02 17:02 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-02 17:45 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-03 10:41 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-03 10:46 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-03 12:37 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2013-09-03 09:49 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-09-03 10:04 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Tom Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-03 13:47 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-03 15:28 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2013-09-03 12:33 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-03 17:48 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2013-09-03 14:52 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-04 04:28 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-09-03 15:25 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-03 20:49 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-09-03 17:59 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-09-03 19:17 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac billy@MIX.COM - 2013-09-04 02:50 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2013-09-04 03:20 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-09-03 20:57 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac billy@MIX.COM - 2013-09-04 15:38 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-09-04 00:02 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-04 04:28 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-04 17:00 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-09-04 21:48 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-04 04:28 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-09-04 09:39 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-09-04 22:00 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-05 07:08 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-05 07:08 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-09-04 21:42 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2013-09-04 16:14 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-03 13:18 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-03 15:31 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-04 04:28 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-05 01:42 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-05 07:08 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2013-09-06 21:10 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-09-02 22:45 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-09-02 09:18 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-02 17:33 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-02 18:39 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-02 20:12 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-02 20:24 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac mcarels@xs4all.nl (Maarten Carels) - 2013-09-03 10:12 +0200
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-03 16:40 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-09-03 15:21 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-03 20:42 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac billy@MIX.COM - 2013-09-02 04:39 +0000
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-02 12:45 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac "Red Ryder" <r.Ryder@aol.com> - 2013-09-14 10:55 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-09-14 10:12 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-14 13:45 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-09-14 12:56 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-09-14 17:21 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac "Red Ryder" <rRyder@brightnet.net> - 2013-09-14 19:08 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac "Red Ryder" <rRyder@aol.com> - 2013-09-14 16:17 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-09-14 13:45 -0700
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac "Red Ryder" <rRyder@brightnet.net> - 2013-09-14 19:07 -0400
Re: alternative mail clients for Mac Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-09-15 02:26 +0000
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| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 04:28 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <040920130428470020%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #48213 |
In article <barmar-6E806F.17480503092013@news.eternal-september.org>, Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote: > > > > I read email two places (my desktop with mail filters set up to do > > > > what I want) and my iPhone. > > > > > > > > If my computer is off, then I'm seeing new mail come in on my iPhone > > > > which does not get filtered by the filtering rules on my desktop. > > > > > > > > And in fact, I'm likely to read it on my iphone while reading other > > > > mail, so it is no longer new mail when my computer comes back on, thus > > > > the filtering doesn't even get applied then. > > > > > > > > I actually (like many people) have a more complicated situation. I > > > > read email in four places: my work computer, my home computer, my > > > > iPhone and my iPad. What I do is just leave my work computer on all > > > > the time, because the filtering I do is important for me. > > > > > > I thought you might be talking about this. But if you read mail on > > > multiple devices, client-side filtering in general is useless, because a > > > filter on client A won't help if you read the mail first on client > > > B. > > > > That's simply not true. > > > > If client A is a Mac Desktop running Mail and client A is on, and Mail > > is on, then mail gets filtered by client A. I reap the benefits > > reading it with client B. > > > > > So since you're in such a tizzy about how Mail's filters don't work with > > > pre-sorted mail, I assumed that you didn't make much use of multiple > > > devices. > > > > You have me mistaken for someone else. I have said nothing about how > > Mail's filters work or don't work with pre-sorted mail. > > Sorry, I didn't bother looking at attributions. I thought the only one > arguing that there's a problem with what Mail does was the guy who said > he uses postfix to pre-sort his mail, and that Mail isn't compatible > with this, so I assumed that was you when you responded. that'd be me, and i do use multiple devices. it's the main reason i switched to imap. however, i also use postfix filtering because it's so incredibly useful.
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| From | Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-03 15:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <michelle-A80E7B.15254503092013@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #48206 |
In article <barmar-65A185.15280003092013@news.eternal-september.org>, Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote: > I thought you might be talking about this. But if you read mail on > multiple devices, client-side filtering in general is useless, because a > filter on client A won't help if you read the mail first on client B. Mail addressed to michelle@michelle.org gets delivered to both my iMac and iPad; it is an IMAP account. I leave the iMac running 24/7, so when mail.app sorts incoming mail into various folders, they get sorted into the same folders on the iPad, even if I read the mail on the iPad before reading it on the iMac. One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want to sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client computer. -- All usenet users are quirky, but some are more quirky than others.
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| From | Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-03 20:49 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <sfKdnaiX7tcyHrvPnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #48218 |
On 2013.09.03 18:25 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <barmar-65A185.15280003092013@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> I thought you might be talking about this. But if you read mail on
>> multiple devices, client-side filtering in general is useless, because a
>> filter on client A won't help if you read the mail first on client B.
>
> Mail addressed to michelle@michelle.org gets delivered to both my iMac and
> iPad; it is an IMAP account. I leave the iMac running 24/7, so when
> mail.app sorts incoming mail into various folders, they get sorted into the
> same folders on the iPad, even if I read the mail on the iPad before
> reading it on the iMac.
>
> One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want to
> sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client computer.
Seems to me only one person has that affliction.
--
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible
to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."
-Unknown
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| From | Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-03 17:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <michelle-9FF319.17594803092013@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #48224 |
In article <sfKdnaiX7tcyHrvPnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > > One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want > > to sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client > > computer. > > Seems to me only one person has that affliction. It seems to me that there are two or three people here wanting to do it. I still don't understand their reasons, though; they haven't given any examples. -- All usenet users are quirky, but some are more quirky than others.
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| From | Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-03 19:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vilain-BC94B3.19171803092013@news.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #48225 |
In article <michelle-9FF319.17594803092013@news.eternal-september.org>, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote: > In article <sfKdnaiX7tcyHrvPnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, > Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > > > > One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want > > > to sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client > > > computer. > > > > Seems to me only one person has that affliction. > > It seems to me that there are two or three people here wanting to do it. I > still don't understand their reasons, though; they haven't given any > examples. I can see a use case for sorting email on the server so that it can be accessed via multiple machines using IMAP. However, that use case apparently hasn't occurred to Apple (or most email client creators). I think it's historical--all mail clients read mail from a server into a local inbox. You had to read mail and file it away to move it out of that inbox, which was usually on the user's local machine. As more and more systems started using server-based email (IMAP) rather than client-based (POP) email, the sorting-on-the-server model negates the local filtering left over from the client model. nospam may be an outlier and feel that Apple Mail is "broken", but that's just his opinion. Most developers would just say "not a bug--works as designed". Sorting on the server only really applies if you have your own mail server. Gmail is the only service that does sorting on the server. All the others assume the client will do the sorting. So, nospam can either use Gmail with it's filtering which works on any IMAP email client. Or find another email client that does what he wants (apparently they all assume client filtering). Or accept things as they are. Complaining here will accomplish nothing. Really. Complaining here about Apple software bugs, perceived or real, will accomplish NOTHING. Maybe it's time to send a bug report off to Apple's /dev/null mailbox http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html -- DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee... [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
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| From | billy@MIX.COM |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 02:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <l06766$292$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #48227 |
Michael Vilain <vilain@nospamcop.net> writes:
> [...] Sorting on the server only really applies if
> you have your own mail server. Gmail is the only service that does
> sorting on the server. All the others assume the client will do the
> sorting.
PMDF on VMS can do it, as can Oracle's Convergence messaging system.
There must be at least a few others...
> Complaining here about Apple software bugs, perceived or real, will
> accomplish NOTHING.
>
> Maybe it's time to send a bug report off to Apple's /dev/null mailbox
>
> http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html
Why not use the real one?
https://bugreport.apple.com/
Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
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| From | Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 03:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5226a719$0$52738$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net> |
| In reply to | #48228 |
In article <l06766$292$1@reader1.panix.com>, <billy@MIX.COM> wrote: >Michael Vilain <vilain@nospamcop.net> writes: > >> Complaining here about Apple software bugs, perceived or real, will >> accomplish NOTHING. >> >> Maybe it's time to send a bug report off to Apple's /dev/null mailbox >> >> http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html > >Why not use the real one? > >https://bugreport.apple.com/ The bottom of that page says "[Apple logo] Developer." Can it also be used by non-developers? Patty
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| From | Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-03 20:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vilain-CE2B4D.20572603092013@news.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #48229 |
In article <5226a719$0$52738$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote: > In article <l06766$292$1@reader1.panix.com>, <billy@MIX.COM> wrote: > >Michael Vilain <vilain@nospamcop.net> writes: > > > >> Complaining here about Apple software bugs, perceived or real, will > >> accomplish NOTHING. > >> > >> Maybe it's time to send a bug report off to Apple's /dev/null mailbox > >> > >> http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html > > > >Why not use the real one? > > > >https://bugreport.apple.com/ > > The bottom of that page says "[Apple logo] Developer." Can it > also be used by non-developers? > > > Patty It doesn't cost anything to register as an Apple Developer, it's just an extra step. It want's your Apple Developer ID, so you have to become a developer even if you don't know C++ from FORRAN. -- DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee... [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
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| From | billy@MIX.COM |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 15:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <l07k5m$mfv$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #48230 |
Michael Vilain <vilain@nospamcop.net> writes, quoting me
and Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com>:
> > >Why not use the real one?
> > >
> > >https://bugreport.apple.com/
> >
> > The bottom of that page says "[Apple logo] Developer." Can it
> > also be used by non-developers?
> It doesn't cost anything to register as an Apple Developer, it's just an
> extra step. It want's your Apple Developer ID, so you have to become a
> developer even if you don't know C++ from FORRAN.
Yes, anyone can use it, although it does require free registration.
That said, clear explanations and steps to reproduce are important.
Apple keeps everything filed here to themselves, so you might want
to check here first, to see if your bug has already been reported -
http://openradar.appspot.com/
Some background info on Open Radar -
http://openradar.appspot.com/faq
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2008/11/open-radar-using-social-networking-to-squash-apple-bugs/
Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
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| From | Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 00:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <michelle-4A8CE2.00023804092013@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #48229 |
In article <5226a719$0$52738$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> wrote: > The bottom of that page says "[Apple logo] Developer." Can it > also be used by non-developers? Anyone can sign up for free as a developer and get access to the bug report page. There's also paid developer status which gets greater access, including beta OS and other software. -- All usenet users are quirky, but some are more quirky than others.
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| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 04:28 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <040920130428500233%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #48227 |
In article <vilain-BC94B3.19171803092013@news.individual.net>, Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> wrote: > I can see a use case for sorting email on the server so that it can be > accessed via multiple machines using IMAP. However, that use case > apparently hasn't occurred to Apple (or most email client creators). I > think it's historical--all mail clients read mail from a server into a > local inbox. You had to read mail and file it away to move it out of > that inbox, which was usually on the user's local machine. nonsense. someone thought it would be useful enough to implement in postfix, with millions of people using it every day. google thought it was useful enough to fully support it in gmail. > As more and more systems started using server-based email (IMAP) rather > than client-based (POP) email, the sorting-on-the-server model negates > the local filtering left over from the client model. no it doesn't at all. although there's some overlap, one does not replace the other. each can do some things the other cannot. > nospam may be an outlier and feel that Apple Mail is "broken", but > that's just his opinion. Most developers would just say "not a > bug--works as designed". that's the standard response of lazy developers. > Sorting on the server only really applies if > you have your own mail server. Gmail is the only service that does > sorting on the server. All the others assume the client will do the > sorting. nonsense. gmail is not the only client that supports it. it's a standard feature of postfix, which is widely used, including by google with gmail. > So, nospam can either use Gmail with it's filtering which works on any > IMAP email client. Or find another email client that does what he wants > (apparently they all assume client filtering). Or accept things as they > are. Complaining here will accomplish nothing. gmail doesn't solve the problem, it just changes the server. the problem is still exactly the same. apple mail won't sort gmail folders either. there are email clients that can do it but they suck in other ways, such as being powerpc only or having an interface designed by sadists.
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| From | Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 17:00 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <qO-dnd9haJTxArrPnZ2dnUVZ_vYAAAAA@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #48227 |
On 2013.09.03 22:17 , Michael Vilain wrote:
> Complaining here about Apple software bugs, perceived or real, will
> accomplish NOTHING.
Not quite. It makes this community aware of issues (potential, real or
imagined). Posting them to Apple's feedback site is sort of like
writing letters to the Queen suggesting she would not be unwelcome to
drop in for tea some day.
--
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible
to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."
-Unknown
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| From | Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 21:48 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnl2falb.1td.g.kreme@mbp55.local> |
| In reply to | #48227 |
In message <vilain-BC94B3.19171803092013@news.individual.net> Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> wrote: > In article <michelle-9FF319.17594803092013@news.eternal-september.org>, > Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote: >> In article <sfKdnaiX7tcyHrvPnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, >> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: >> >> > > One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want >> > > to sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client >> > > computer. >> > >> > Seems to me only one person has that affliction. >> >> It seems to me that there are two or three people here wanting to do it. I >> still don't understand their reasons, though; they haven't given any >> examples. > I can see a use case for sorting email on the server so that it can be > accessed via multiple machines using IMAP. However, that use case > apparently hasn't occurred to Apple (or most email client creators). Of course it has. Apple server uses postfix and dovecot. It might even have sieve installed by default. >I think it's historical--all mail clients read mail from a server into >a local inbox. No, that's no the case *at all*. That is how POP works. IMAP works by having the client SYNC all its local folders with the folders on the server. > You had to read mail and file it away to move it out of > that inbox, which was usually on the user's local machine. You are not describing IMAP at all. > As more and more systems started using server-based email (IMAP) rather > than client-based (POP) email, the sorting-on-the-server model negates > the local filtering left over from the client model. There is no sense in filtering twice in two places. Filtering on the server means that mail is always where it is supposed to be. > nospam may be an outlier and feel that Apple Mail is "broken", but > that's just his opinion. Most developers would just say "not a > bug--works as designed". Sorting on the server only really applies if > you have your own mail server. Gmail is the only service that does > sorting on the server. No, that's not the case at all. Anyone with dovecot and sieve or courier and maildrop or anything and procmail can do server-side filtering. -- "Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." - Isaac Asimov
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| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 04:28 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <040920130428480114%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #48218 |
In article <michelle-A80E7B.15254503092013@news.eternal-september.org>, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote: > > I thought you might be talking about this. But if you read mail on > > multiple devices, client-side filtering in general is useless, because a > > filter on client A won't help if you read the mail first on client B. > > Mail addressed to michelle@michelle.org gets delivered to both my iMac and > iPad; it is an IMAP account. I leave the iMac running 24/7, so when > mail.app sorts incoming mail into various folders, they get sorted into the > same folders on the iPad, even if I read the mail on the iPad before > reading it on the iMac. > > One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want to > sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client computer. different types of filtering. on the mail server, a +suffix sorts mail into a corresponding imap folder, automatically creating the folder if needed, no additional steps required beyond creating a new email suffix. with apple mail, i'd need to do it all manually every time i wanted a new folder, and it's also something that's not possible when not using apple mail, namely from an idevice. i'd also like to do *additional* filtering, such as changing the colour or copying it off the server entirely. for example, i'd like to see ebay saved searches in one colour and ebay confirmations in a different colour. neither of those can be done upstream. one does *not* replace the other.
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| From | Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 09:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <michelle-F07CC6.09392304092013@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #48234 |
In article <040920130428480114%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote: > > One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want to > > sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client computer. > > different types of filtering. > > on the mail server, a +suffix sorts mail into a corresponding imap > folder, automatically creating the folder if needed, no additional steps > required beyond creating a new email suffix. with apple mail, i'd need > to do it all manually every time i wanted a new folder, I can see the savings of a step. > and it's also something that's not possible when not using apple mail, > namely from an idevice. True, but if you have an IMAP compliant mail app on a computer, creating a new folder there will cause the IMAP server to replicate it on the iDevice. (OF course that doesn't help anyone who has only the iDevice and no computer unless they create the folder on the server using a webmail interface.) > i'd also like to do *additional* filtering, such as changing the colour > or copying it off the server entirely. for example, i'd like to see ebay > saved searches in one colour and ebay confirmations in a different > colour. neither of those can be done upstream. Yes, I can see how that can be useful. However, it can be done with mail.app, using two rules, and maybe with other email apps as well. > one does *not* replace the other. I never said it did; I was wondering where having both would be useful. Thanks for the considered reply. -- All usenet users are quirky, but some are more quirky than others.
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| From | Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 22:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnl2fbbf.1td.g.kreme@mbp55.local> |
| In reply to | #48241 |
In message <michelle-F07CC6.09392304092013@news.eternal-september.org> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote: > In article <040920130428480114%nospam@nospam.invalid>, > nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote: >> > One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want to >> > sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client computer. >> >> different types of filtering. >> >> on the mail server, a +suffix sorts mail into a corresponding imap >> folder, automatically creating the folder if needed, no additional steps >> required beyond creating a new email suffix. with apple mail, i'd need >> to do it all manually every time i wanted a new folder, > I can see the savings of a step. But it's not true anyway. The +address is not a magic "create a folder" command to the mailserver. It is trivial to have the Local Delivery Agent (LDA) create and file mail to that folder, but it still takes something to actually do it. I use procmail, but sieve and maildrop and probably any other LDA can do it as well. In procmail I have several + addresses that all get filed to "misc". I believe, but am not sure, that in dovecot all you need to do is add: $recipient_delimiter = '+'; and it will manage the mailbox creation and filing for you, but then you don't get to dump multiple +addresses into a single folder like I do. >> i'd also like to do *additional* filtering, such as changing the colour >> or copying it off the server entirely. for example, i'd like to see ebay >> saved searches in one colour and ebay confirmations in a different >> colour. neither of those can be done upstream. > Yes, I can see how that can be useful. However, it can be done with > mail.app, using two rules, and maybe with other email apps as well. As far as I know, colors are local only in Apple Mail. That is to say, if I set a mail message to "red" it's only red on the machine I set it on. Maybe that's changed and they use MAILDIR flags now? -- "I don't think the kind of friends I'd have would care."
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| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-05 07:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <050920130708387966%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #48253 |
In article <slrnl2fbbf.1td.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote: > >> > One thing I don't understand in this discussion is why one would want to > >> > sort mail twice: once on the server, and again on the client computer. > >> > >> different types of filtering. > >> > >> on the mail server, a +suffix sorts mail into a corresponding imap > >> folder, automatically creating the folder if needed, no additional steps > >> required beyond creating a new email suffix. with apple mail, i'd need > >> to do it all manually every time i wanted a new folder, > > > I can see the savings of a step. > > But it's not true anyway. it is. > The +address is not a magic "create a folder" > command to the mailserver. It is trivial to have the Local Delivery > Agent (LDA) create and file mail to that folder, but it still takes > something to actually do it. I use procmail, but sieve and maildrop and > probably any other LDA can do it as well. at the end of the day, adding a new +suffix creates a new folder if the folder didn't already exist. otherwise, mail is put into the existing folder. > In procmail I have several + addresses that all get filed to "misc". > > I believe, but am not sure, that in dovecot all you need to do is add: > > $recipient_delimiter = '+'; > > and it will manage the mailbox creation and filing for you, but then you > don't get to dump multiple +addresses into a single folder like I do. yes you can, either with procmail, or do it on the client end. > >> i'd also like to do *additional* filtering, such as changing the colour > >> or copying it off the server entirely. for example, i'd like to see ebay > >> saved searches in one colour and ebay confirmations in a different > >> colour. neither of those can be done upstream. > > > Yes, I can see how that can be useful. However, it can be done with > > mail.app, using two rules, and maybe with other email apps as well. > > As far as I know, colors are local only in Apple Mail. That is to say, > if I set a mail message to "red" it's only red on the machine I set it > on. Maybe that's changed and they use MAILDIR flags now? exactly why filtering can't be entirely done on the server.
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| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-05 07:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <050920130708367828%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #48241 |
In article <michelle-F07CC6.09392304092013@news.eternal-september.org>, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote: > > i'd also like to do *additional* filtering, such as changing the colour > > or copying it off the server entirely. for example, i'd like to see ebay > > saved searches in one colour and ebay confirmations in a different > > colour. neither of those can be done upstream. > > Yes, I can see how that can be useful. However, it can be done with > mail.app, using two rules, and maybe with other email apps as well. not automatically it can't. that's the problem.
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| From | Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 21:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnl2faa2.1td.g.kreme@mbp55.local> |
| In reply to | #48198 |
In message <4bioyhc0jz.fsf@ethel.the.log> Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote: > Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> writes: >> In article <030920131046024178%nospam@nospam.invalid>, >> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote: >> >> > In article <barmar-CCFD09.10413003092013@news.eternal-september.org>, >> > Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote: >> > >> > > > > I suspect it's a deliberate design choice by Apple not to do filtering >> > > > > of messages that aren't in the Inbox. >> > > > >> > > > that doesn't change anything. it still means a key feature of postfix >> > > > and other similar software are voided. >> > > >> > > You keep saying that, as if Apple were somehow UNDOING what postfix >> > > does. Postfix puts the mail in a folder, Apple doesn't void it. >> > >> > it makes the feature useless. i call that voided. >> > >> > > What I think you mean are that Mail rules are not as useful when >> > > combined with Postfix filtering. >> > >> > that's what i said. >> > >> > > You could just do all your filtering in Mail. >> > >> > i could, but that means throwing out what's already been done. it also >> > requires apple mail to always be running. >> >> Why? As soon as you start it up, it will download the new mail and sort >> them into their folders. > Consider the following situation: > I read email two places (my desktop with mail filters set up to do > what I want) and my iPhone. > If my computer is off, then I'm seeing new mail come in on my iPhone > which does not get filtered by the filtering rules on my desktop. > And in fact, I'm likely to read it on my iphone while reading other > mail, so it is no longer new mail when my computer comes back on, thus > the filtering doesn't even get applied then. > I actually (like many people) have a more complicated situation. I > read email in four places: my work computer, my home computer, my > iPhone and my iPad. What I do is just leave my work computer on all > the time, because the filtering I do is important for me. And what *I* do is filter on the server, so it doesn't matter what computer I am using and my filters do not depend on a single machine being connected to the Internet. My iPad, iPhone, MacBook, iMac, Mini, and any random computer I decide to use webmail from all see the exact same mailstore, filtered. -- Here are people who know that there is no steel, only the idea of steel. Footnote: But they still use forks, or, at least, the idea of forks. There may, as the philosopher says, be no spoon, although this begs the question of why there is the idea of soup.
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| From | Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-09-04 16:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rtk3iwp4b9.fsf@ethel.the.log> |
| In reply to | #48250 |
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes: (snip) > And what *I* do is filter on the server, so it doesn't matter what > computer I am using and my filters do not depend on a single machine > being connected to the Internet. Right. That is a perfectly good solution - I was just answering the question of "why (if you use Apple's Mail program to filter) you need to leave your computer running all the time.
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