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RTF vs XCode

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  RTF vs XCode Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2014-03-27 20:26 -0700
    Re: RTF vs XCode Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-28 04:11 +0000
      Re: RTF vs XCode Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2014-03-27 23:35 -0700
        Re: RTF vs XCode ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-03-28 14:30 +0100
          Re: RTF vs XCode Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2014-03-28 06:39 -0700
        Re: RTF vs XCode Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-03-29 08:41 +1200
    Re: RTF vs XCode Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-03-29 08:44 +1200
      Re: RTF vs XCode ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-03-28 23:28 +0100
        Re: RTF vs XCode Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-03-28 23:06 +0000
          Re: RTF vs XCode Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-03-29 12:24 +1200
            Re: RTF vs XCode Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-03-29 08:02 +0000
              Re: RTF vs XCode ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-03-29 13:17 +0100
                Re: RTF vs XCode Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-03-29 18:02 +0000
                  Re: RTF vs XCode ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-03-30 03:00 +0200
              Re: RTF vs XCode Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-03-30 09:55 +1200
                Re: RTF vs XCode Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-03-29 22:27 +0000
                Re: RTF vs XCode ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-03-30 03:16 +0200
            Re: RTF vs XCode ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-03-29 12:49 +0100
          Re: RTF vs XCode ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-03-29 12:30 +0100
        Re: RTF vs XCode Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-03-29 12:03 +1200
          Re: RTF vs XCode Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-28 23:56 +0000
        Re: RTF vs XCode Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-03-29 12:20 +1200
          Re: RTF vs XCode ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> - 2014-03-29 12:55 +0100
        Re: RTF vs XCode Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-03-29 12:27 +1200
        Re: RTF vs XCode Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2014-03-29 12:32 +1200

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#58177 — RTF vs XCode

My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to properly edit 
RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF with all the usual 
functionality like auto-indent?
-- 
Daddy says Mormons are all programmers because their god is Cobol. Should
I ask Mormons to reschedule Bullwinkle?
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
This is Walter speaking.

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#58179

On 2014-03-28, Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to
> properly edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit
> RTF with all the usual functionality like auto-indent?

I've never used Xcode to edit RTF documents. TextEdit does it well
enough for my needs, though.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#58183

In article <bpkb34FdrhvU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-03-28, Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to
> > properly edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit
> > RTF with all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> 
> I've never used Xcode to edit RTF documents. TextEdit does it well
> enough for my needs, though.

TextEdit doesn't have autoindent, RE searches, bracket matching, etc.
-- 
Daddy says Mormons are all programmers because their god is Cobol. Should
I ask Mormons to reschedule Bullwinkle?
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
This is Walter speaking.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#58186

Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <bpkb34FdrhvU1@mid.individual.net>,
>   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-03-28, Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to
>>> properly edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit
>>> RTF with all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
>>
>> I've never used Xcode to edit RTF documents. TextEdit does it well
>> enough for my needs, though.
>
> TextEdit doesn't have autoindent, RE searches, bracket matching, etc.

Indeed! TE isnot as good as many thinks it is. - Also opening RTF files 
made in word Mac/Win will make most formatting disappear.

Have you tried Bean 3.2.x? I use it as a TE replacement because it can 
do much more. It handles lots of formats incl. HTML, RTF, DOC etc. and 
it's feee.
<http://www.bean-osx.com/Bean.html>

If you want a full easy-to-use textprocessor/editor, I can only 
recommend NisusWriter Pro. NWP uses RTF as default format, but it 
handles lots of file formats. Lots of features like tables, graphics, 
manually and automatically tools through macros, PerlScripts, 
AppleScripts etc.. 14-days free full-working trial available.
<http://nisus.com/pro/>

NisusWriter is also in a somewhat simpler and cheaper version - 
NisusWriter Express, also using RTF as default, also with the same file 
format handling, macro, script handling. 14-day free full-working trial 
here.
<http://nisus.com/Express/>

Both NWP and NWE have one big advantage. They do handle tables in RTF. 
And to make these RTF files fully compatible to Windows users is just to 
rename the document from .rtf to .doc before sending to a Win-user. This 
will keep ALL formattings saved on a Wintel computer.

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#58187

In article <lh3ti6$m6u$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> wrote:

> Siri Cruise wrote:
> > In article <bpkb34FdrhvU1@mid.individual.net>,
> >   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2014-03-28, Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to
> >>> properly edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit
> >>> RTF with all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> >>
> >> I've never used Xcode to edit RTF documents. TextEdit does it well
> >> enough for my needs, though.
> >
> > TextEdit doesn't have autoindent, RE searches, bracket matching, etc.
> 
> Indeed! TE isnot as good as many thinks it is. - Also opening RTF files 
> made in word Mac/Win will make most formatting disappear.
> 
> Have you tried Bean 3.2.x? I use it as a TE replacement because it can 
> do much more. It handles lots of formats incl. HTML, RTF, DOC etc. and 
> it's feee.
> <http://www.bean-osx.com/Bean.html>
> 
> If you want a full easy-to-use textprocessor/editor, I can only 
> recommend NisusWriter Pro. NWP uses RTF as default format, but it 
> handles lots of file formats. Lots of features like tables, graphics, 
> manually and automatically tools through macros, PerlScripts, 
> AppleScripts etc.. 14-days free full-working trial available.
> <http://nisus.com/pro/>
> 
> NisusWriter is also in a somewhat simpler and cheaper version - 
> NisusWriter Express, also using RTF as default, also with the same file 
> format handling, macro, script handling. 14-day free full-working trial 
> here.
> <http://nisus.com/Express/>
> 
> Both NWP and NWE have one big advantage. They do handle tables in RTF. 
> And to make these RTF files fully compatible to Windows users is just to 
> rename the document from .rtf to .doc before sending to a Win-user. This 
> will keep ALL formattings saved on a Wintel computer.
> 
> Cheers, Erik Richard

Thanks.
-- 
Daddy says Mormons are all programmers because their god is Cobol. Should
I ask Mormons to reschedule Bullwinkle?
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
This is Walter speaking.

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#58190

In article <lh3qbj$ash$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid>
wrote:

> Siri Cruise wrote:
> > In article <bpkb34FdrhvU1@mid.individual.net>,
> >   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2014-03-28, Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to
> >>> properly edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit
> >>> RTF with all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> >>
> >> I've never used Xcode to edit RTF documents. TextEdit does it well
> >> enough for my needs, though.
> >
> > TextEdit doesn't have autoindent, RE searches, bracket matching, etc.
> 
> Indeed! TE isnot as good as many thinks it is. - Also opening RTF files 
> made in word Mac/Win will make most formatting disappear.
<snip>

That is likely caused by Microsoft's refusal to stick to anyone else's
standards and try to make up "standards" of their own they then expect
everyone else to use.  :-(

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#58191

In article
<chine.bleu-DE94A3.20260927032014@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri
Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:

> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to properly
> edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF with 
> all the usual functionality like auto-indent?

BBEdit is the more usual text editor used by programmers and HTML
website creators, but I don't know if it handles RTF. RTF isn't really
needed for such an editor when the colouring, etc. can be done
on-the-fly on screen. http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#58197

Your Name wrote:
> Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to properly
>> edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF with
>> all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
>
> BBEdit is the more usual text editor used by programmers and HTML
> website creators, but I don't know if it handles RTF. RTF isn't really
> needed for such an editor when the colouring, etc. can be done
> on-the-fly on screen. http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/

Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor. It has no direct saving 
functionality into /any/ file format. But it handles plain and styled 
text and it can be used for editing RTF and other files, because it 
always keeps the primary format as the saving format. I.e. if you open a 
TXT file in BBEdit and use the COM+S, it will keep the .txt format, and 
if you open a RTF file, hit COM+S it will keep the .rtf format

Another benefit is that BBEdit can save directly into customized 
formats. I.e. if you open a TXT file (or any other file format), make 
your changes and select 'Save As' you can change the suffix from .txt to 
.rtf, .doc, docx etc, and the saved tocument will be a document of the 
chosen file format. - And hereto fully formattings are kept as the 
original an d it's possible to add styled text to a .txt file!

Just tried with a RTF file which I first saved as a TXT file - all 
formattings are kept, - and then again back to a TXT file - all 
formattings are kept.

The only thing that changes is the prime icon showing which app to be 
used as default opening the file. The changed file will get a BBEdit 
icon with 'text' written inside the icon no matter if it's a TXT or RTF 
file. But opening in your default app will show correct content.

The problem with BBEdit is that it's relatively expensive for non-pro 
users, and the learning curve is rather steep...

Bean 3.x doesnot handle styled TXT documents... I didn't know that, but 
have just found out...

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#58198

In article <lh4t1v$a2s$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid>
wrote:

> Your Name wrote:
> > Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to properly
> >> edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF with
> >> all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> >
> > BBEdit is the more usual text editor used by programmers and HTML
> > website creators, but I don't know if it handles RTF. RTF isn't really
> > needed for such an editor when the colouring, etc. can be done
> > on-the-fly on screen. http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/
> 
> Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor. It has no direct saving 
> functionality into /any/ file format. But it handles plain and styled 
> text and it can be used for editing RTF and other files, because it 
> always keeps the primary format as the saving format. I.e. if you open a 
> TXT file in BBEdit and use the COM+S, it will keep the .txt format, and 
> if you open a RTF file, hit COM+S it will keep the .rtf format
> 
> Another benefit is that BBEdit can save directly into customized 
> formats. I.e. if you open a TXT file (or any other file format), make 
> your changes and select 'Save As' you can change the suffix from .txt to 
> .rtf, .doc, docx etc, and the saved tocument will be a document of the 
> chosen file format. - And hereto fully formattings are kept as the 
> original an d it's possible to add styled text to a .txt file!
> 
> Just tried with a RTF file which I first saved as a TXT file - all 
> formattings are kept, - and then again back to a TXT file - all 
> formattings are kept.

You seem to be implying that BBedit knows how to save a text file in
Word format. RTF is just text, nothing special about it. Some
applications will *interpret* it as styled text, but that's a different
story.

Changing the suffix doesn't change the file format. It just changes the
suffix. The file content is unaltered.

-- 
"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to
 lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores 
 the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them
 into it in the first place."                             - Douglas Adams

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#58200

In article <280320142306408124%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <lh4t1v$a2s$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid>
> wrote:
> > Your Name wrote:
> > > Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to properly
> > >> edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF with
> > >> all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> > >
> > > BBEdit is the more usual text editor used by programmers and HTML
> > > website creators, but I don't know if it handles RTF. RTF isn't really
> > > needed for such an editor when the colouring, etc. can be done
> > > on-the-fly on screen. http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/
> > 
> > Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor. It has no direct saving 
> > functionality into /any/ file format. But it handles plain and styled 
> > text and it can be used for editing RTF and other files, because it 
> > always keeps the primary format as the saving format. I.e. if you open a 
> > TXT file in BBEdit and use the COM+S, it will keep the .txt format, and 
> > if you open a RTF file, hit COM+S it will keep the .rtf format
> > 
> > Another benefit is that BBEdit can save directly into customized 
> > formats. I.e. if you open a TXT file (or any other file format), make 
> > your changes and select 'Save As' you can change the suffix from .txt to 
> > .rtf, .doc, docx etc, and the saved tocument will be a document of the 
> > chosen file format. - And hereto fully formattings are kept as the 
> > original an d it's possible to add styled text to a .txt file!
> > 
> > Just tried with a RTF file which I first saved as a TXT file - all 
> > formattings are kept, - and then again back to a TXT file - all 
> > formattings are kept.
> 
> You seem to be implying that BBedit knows how to save a text file in
> Word format. RTF is just text, nothing special about it. Some
> applications will *interpret* it as styled text, but that's a different
> story.
> 
> Changing the suffix doesn't change the file format. It just changes the
> suffix. The file content is unaltered.

I don't know about BBEdit, but GraphicConverter is definitely "suffix
aware" - when in a Save As window, whatever suffix you type on the
filename will automatically change the file format it saves as (as will
choosing the format from the pop-up menu of course). If you type ".jpg"
or ".jpeg" the file saves as a JPG. If you type ".tiff" it saves as a
TIF, etc.

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#58205

In article <290320141224355373%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> In article <280320142306408124%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > In article <lh4t1v$a2s$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid>
> > wrote:
> > > Your Name wrote:
> > > > Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to
> > > >> properly
> > > >> edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF with
> > > >> all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> > > >
> > > > BBEdit is the more usual text editor used by programmers and HTML
> > > > website creators, but I don't know if it handles RTF. RTF isn't really
> > > > needed for such an editor when the colouring, etc. can be done
> > > > on-the-fly on screen. http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/
> > > 
> > > Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor. It has no direct saving 
> > > functionality into /any/ file format. But it handles plain and styled 
> > > text and it can be used for editing RTF and other files, because it 
> > > always keeps the primary format as the saving format. I.e. if you open a 
> > > TXT file in BBEdit and use the COM+S, it will keep the .txt format, and 
> > > if you open a RTF file, hit COM+S it will keep the .rtf format
> > > 
> > > Another benefit is that BBEdit can save directly into customized 
> > > formats. I.e. if you open a TXT file (or any other file format), make 
> > > your changes and select 'Save As' you can change the suffix from .txt to 
> > > .rtf, .doc, docx etc, and the saved tocument will be a document of the 
> > > chosen file format. - And hereto fully formattings are kept as the 
> > > original an d it's possible to add styled text to a .txt file!
> > > 
> > > Just tried with a RTF file which I first saved as a TXT file - all 
> > > formattings are kept, - and then again back to a TXT file - all 
> > > formattings are kept.
> > 
> > You seem to be implying that BBedit knows how to save a text file in
> > Word format. RTF is just text, nothing special about it. Some
> > applications will *interpret* it as styled text, but that's a different
> > story.
> > 
> > Changing the suffix doesn't change the file format. It just changes the
> > suffix. The file content is unaltered.
> 
> I don't know about BBEdit, but GraphicConverter is definitely "suffix
> aware" - when in a Save As window, whatever suffix you type on the
> filename will automatically change the file format it saves as (as will
> choosing the format from the pop-up menu of course). If you type ".jpg"
> or ".jpeg" the file saves as a JPG. If you type ".tiff" it saves as a
> TIF, etc.

Well obviously. A .tiff is a different format from a .jpg or .png and
the file sizes will be diffeent too.

A .txt file is just text. So is a .rtf file. You can save your text
file as .doc but that doesn't make the file be in Word format. Try
writing some simple text in a Word document, save it as .doc, and open
that with BBedit and see how far you get.

-- 
"Once you adopt the unix paradigm, the variants cease to be a problem - you
bitch, of course, but that's because bitching is fun, unlike M$ OS's, where 
bitching is required to keep your head from exploding." - S Stremler in afc

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#58210

Tim Streater wrote:
> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>> I don't know about BBEdit, but GraphicConverter is definitely "suffix
>> aware" - when in a Save As window, whatever suffix you type on the
>> filename will automatically change the file format it saves as (as will
>> choosing the format from the pop-up menu of course). If you type ".jpg"
>> or ".jpeg" the file saves as a JPG. If you type ".tiff" it saves as a
>> TIF, etc.
>
> Well obviously. A .tiff is a different format from a .jpg or .png and
> the file sizes will be diffeent too.
>
> A .txt file is just text. So is a .rtf file. You can save your text
> file as .doc but that doesn't make the file be in Word format. Try
> writing some simple text in a Word document, save it as .doc, and open
> that with BBedit and see how far you get.

Exact this method I've used many, many times when people came to me with 
more or less damaged .doc/.docx files which they aren't able to open in 
Word (mainly Word for Windows).

The most obvious differences are all the crap that MSWD puts into the 
document header and each and everytime you've hit the 'Save' command.

Not long ago I received an article around 2:00AM with a cry for help. 
The document (MSWD .docx 2003/2008) couldn't be opened in Word 2008 Mac 
and it had to go to the press next morning at 7:00AM...

What to do now? BBEdit 9.6.3... opened the file and I stripped it for 
anything Word-crap, headers, save info, paragraph break info etc., saved 
it as a .rtf file. Opened it in NisusWriter Pro and corrected the 
missing Danish characters æÆ, øØ and åÅ, saved and zipped and along it 
went to the author. This process only took less than half an hour!

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#58212

In article <lh6dkk$45l$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid>
wrote:

> Tim Streater wrote:
> > Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> >> I don't know about BBEdit, but GraphicConverter is definitely "suffix
> >> aware" - when in a Save As window, whatever suffix you type on the
> >> filename will automatically change the file format it saves as (as will
> >> choosing the format from the pop-up menu of course). If you type ".jpg"
> >> or ".jpeg" the file saves as a JPG. If you type ".tiff" it saves as a
> >> TIF, etc.
> >
> > Well obviously. A .tiff is a different format from a .jpg or .png and
> > the file sizes will be diffeent too.
> >
> > A .txt file is just text. So is a .rtf file. You can save your text
> > file as .doc but that doesn't make the file be in Word format. Try
> > writing some simple text in a Word document, save it as .doc, and open
> > that with BBedit and see how far you get.
> 
> Exact this method I've used many, many times when people came to me with 
> more or less damaged .doc/.docx files which they aren't able to open in 
> Word (mainly Word for Windows).

Even when the .doc file contains tables, footnotes, styled text (such
as italics or bold), headings, paragraph spacing, different fonts and
points sizes, and so on? You trying to pretend that this information
can be manipulated by native BBedit? (I know nothing of these plugins
of which you speak)

You might be able to manage some of that with a .docx file, which AIUI
is in XML, and therefore when opened by a text editor will appear as
text, and which you stand some chance of being able to edit without
destroying it.

The only circumstance in which you might manage it with a .doc file,
which is a binary format, is if the author used Word as a text editor -
didn't use any tables, footnotes, styled text (such as italics or
bold), headings, paragraph spacing, different fonts or points sizes. A
circumstance in which, IOW, the author might as well have used a text
editor to prepare the text, but didn't. The text in such a file is
usually quite visible.

> The most obvious differences are all the crap that MSWD puts into the 
> document header and each and everytime you've hit the 'Save' command.

This "crap" as you so wittily describe it, is where the formatting
information about tables, footnotes, styled text (such as italics or
bold), headings, paragraph spacing, different fonts and points sizes is
stored.

-- 
"If you're not able to ask questions and deal with the answers without feeling 
that someone has called your intelligence or competence into question, don't 
ask questions on Usenet where the answers won't be carefully tailored to avoid
tripping your hair-trigger insecurities."                  - D M Procida, UCSM

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#58218

Tim Streater wrote:
> ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> wrote:
>> Tim Streater wrote:
>>> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't know about BBEdit, but GraphicConverter is definitely
>>>> "suffix aware" - when in a Save As window, whatever suffix you
>>>> type on the filename will automatically change the file format
>>>> it saves as (as will choosing the format from the pop-up menu
>>>> of course). If you type ".jpg" or ".jpeg" the file saves as
>>>> a JPG. If you type ".tiff" it saves as a TIF, etc.
>>>
>>> Well obviously. A .tiff is a different format from a .jpg or .png and
>>> the file sizes will be diffeent too.
>>>
>>> A .txt file is just text. So is a .rtf file. You can save your text
>>> file as .doc but that doesn't make the file be in Word format. Try
>>> writing some simple text in a Word document, save it as .doc, and open
>>> that with BBedit and see how far you get.
>>
>> Exact this method I've used many, many times when people came to me
>> with more or less damaged .doc/.docx files which they aren't able to
>> open in Word (mainly Word for Windows).
>
> Even when the .doc file contains tables, footnotes, styled text (such
> as italics or bold), headings, paragraph spacing, different fonts and
> points sizes, and so on? You trying to pretend that this information
> can be manipulated by native BBedit? (I know nothing of these plugins
> of which you speak)
>
> You might be able to manage some of that with a .docx file, which AIUI
> is in XML, and therefore when opened by a text editor will appear as
> text, and which you stand some chance of being able to edit without
> destroying it.
>
> The only circumstance in which you might manage it with a .doc file,
> which is a binary format, is if the author used Word as a text editor -
> didn't use any tables, footnotes, styled text (such as italics or
> bold), headings, paragraph spacing, different fonts or points sizes. A
> circumstance in which, IOW, the author might as well have used a text
> editor to prepare the text, but didn't. The text in such a file is
> usually quite visible.
>
>> The most obvious differences are all the crap that MSWD puts into the
>> document header and each and everytime you've hit the 'Save' command.
>
> This "crap" as you so wittily describe it, is where the formatting
> information about tables, footnotes, styled text (such as italics or
> bold), headings, paragraph spacing, different fonts and points sizes is
> stored.

I did as I wrote with both .doc, .docx and .rtf files. The thing is that 
when you know /which/ things to remove and not to remove or insert, then 
you will keep any formattings as in the original documents.

At that time when I did most of these rescues I used OS X 10.2.8 and 
later 10.3.x, since many of the old plug-ins are/were written in carbon 
and most of them worked with BBEdit 6.x and some even with BBEdit Lite 
6.1.x.

I've also pulled out data using BBEdit 6.x from some Filemaker databases 
needed at a hospital here. - Infact it was a matter of life and death 
for the doctor to get these informations. I know this case was not a 
normal case. The doctor and the developer of the FMP databases had a 
conflict, and the developer denied to make the base as the doctor would 
have it and he - the developer - locked the base, so the doctor couldn't 
access it. So he called me and gave me the backup CDs and luckily I 
could pull out the needed data.

So yes, BBEdit can be used for quite more than one should expect... And 
to strip a .doc file for MS crap is far much easier than you could think 
of. The header info in a MSWD .doc file doesnot contain informations 
about fonts, sizes, styles etc.. These informations are saved along with 
each paragraph.

Each time such a Word file is saved it will inlay new header 
informations both at the top and at the place, where it was saved along 
with information about operating system, appiication version, dates and 
time etc.etc... If you just remove all that crappy stuff and leave the 
style informations untouched and save the stripped file as a .rtf file, 
you can just open it in the word processor of your own choice.

In the 'late night' document mentioned it was my own fault that I had to 
replace some odd characters with the correct Danich ones was that I 
forgot to change the read method in BBEdit from ASCII to UTF. I was 
first aware of this today when I tried the various savings. BBEdit 
always opens in ASCII mode and not the document's mode...

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#58214

In article <290320140802276974%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <290320141224355373%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
> <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > In article <280320142306408124%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
> > <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > > In article <lh4t1v$a2s$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Your Name wrote:
> > > > > Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to
> > > > >> properly
> > > > >> edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> > > > >
> > > > > BBEdit is the more usual text editor used by programmers and HTML
> > > > > website creators, but I don't know if it handles RTF. RTF isn't really
> > > > > needed for such an editor when the colouring, etc. can be done
> > > > > on-the-fly on screen. http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor. It has no direct saving 
> > > > functionality into /any/ file format. But it handles plain and styled 
> > > > text and it can be used for editing RTF and other files, because it 
> > > > always keeps the primary format as the saving format. I.e. if you open
> > > > a 
> > > > TXT file in BBEdit and use the COM+S, it will keep the .txt format, and 
> > > > if you open a RTF file, hit COM+S it will keep the .rtf format
> > > > 
> > > > Another benefit is that BBEdit can save directly into customized 
> > > > formats. I.e. if you open a TXT file (or any other file format), make 
> > > > your changes and select 'Save As' you can change the suffix from .txt
> > > > to 
> > > > .rtf, .doc, docx etc, and the saved tocument will be a document of the 
> > > > chosen file format. - And hereto fully formattings are kept as the 
> > > > original an d it's possible to add styled text to a .txt file!
> > > > 
> > > > Just tried with a RTF file which I first saved as a TXT file - all 
> > > > formattings are kept, - and then again back to a TXT file - all 
> > > > formattings are kept.
> > > 
> > > You seem to be implying that BBedit knows how to save a text file in
> > > Word format. RTF is just text, nothing special about it. Some
> > > applications will *interpret* it as styled text, but that's a different
> > > story.
> > > 
> > > Changing the suffix doesn't change the file format. It just changes the
> > > suffix. The file content is unaltered.
> > 
> > I don't know about BBEdit, but GraphicConverter is definitely "suffix
> > aware" - when in a Save As window, whatever suffix you type on the
> > filename will automatically change the file format it saves as (as will
> > choosing the format from the pop-up menu of course). If you type ".jpg"
> > or ".jpeg" the file saves as a JPG. If you type ".tiff" it saves as a
> > TIF, etc.
> 
> Well obviously. A .tiff is a different format from a .jpg or .png and
> the file sizes will be diffeent too.

You missed the point - GraphicConverter will change the actual file
format being saved based on what you type as the filename extenstion.




> A .txt file is just text. So is a .rtf file. 

Not strictly true. RTF contains text, but also contains formatting
instructions, and in the case of Microsoft's version it can also
contain images, tables, etc.




> You can save your text file as .doc but that doesn't make the file be 
> in Word format. 

*IF* BBEdit's Save As routines work the same way as GraphicConverter,
then that's exactly what will happen - I'm not saying it does since
I've never used it, but it is certainly possible to change the file
format based on the filename extension you use.

Changing the filename extension in the Finder will of course not change
the file format of any document. It will often simply change which
application will try to open the document when double-clicked.




> Try writing some simple text in a Word document, save it as .doc, and
> open that with BBedit and see how far you get.

I don't know about BBEdit, but Apple's TextEdit will certainly open
simple (and even mildly comlex) Word .doc documents and retain the
formatting where possible.

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#58215

In article <300320140955121829%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> In article <290320140802276974%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > In article <290320141224355373%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
> > <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > > In article <280320142306408124%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
> > > <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > > > In article <lh4t1v$a2s$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Your Name wrote:
> > > > > > Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to
> > > > > >> properly
> > > > > >> edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF
> > > > > >> with
> > > > > >> all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BBEdit is the more usual text editor used by programmers and HTML
> > > > > > website creators, but I don't know if it handles RTF. RTF isn't
> > > > > > really
> > > > > > needed for such an editor when the colouring, etc. can be done
> > > > > > on-the-fly on screen. http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor. It has no direct saving 
> > > > > functionality into /any/ file format. But it handles plain and styled 
> > > > > text and it can be used for editing RTF and other files, because it 
> > > > > always keeps the primary format as the saving format. I.e. if you open
> > > > > a 
> > > > > TXT file in BBEdit and use the COM+S, it will keep the .txt format,
> > > > > and 
> > > > > if you open a RTF file, hit COM+S it will keep the .rtf format
> > > > > 
> > > > > Another benefit is that BBEdit can save directly into customized 
> > > > > formats. I.e. if you open a TXT file (or any other file format), make 
> > > > > your changes and select 'Save As' you can change the suffix from .txt
> > > > > to 
> > > > > .rtf, .doc, docx etc, and the saved tocument will be a document of
> > > > > the 
> > > > > chosen file format. - And hereto fully formattings are kept as the 
> > > > > original an d it's possible to add styled text to a .txt file!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Just tried with a RTF file which I first saved as a TXT file - all 
> > > > > formattings are kept, - and then again back to a TXT file - all 
> > > > > formattings are kept.
> > > > 
> > > > You seem to be implying that BBedit knows how to save a text file in
> > > > Word format. RTF is just text, nothing special about it. Some
> > > > applications will *interpret* it as styled text, but that's a different
> > > > story.
> > > > 
> > > > Changing the suffix doesn't change the file format. It just changes the
> > > > suffix. The file content is unaltered.
> > > 
> > > I don't know about BBEdit, but GraphicConverter is definitely "suffix
> > > aware" - when in a Save As window, whatever suffix you type on the
> > > filename will automatically change the file format it saves as (as will
> > > choosing the format from the pop-up menu of course). If you type ".jpg"
> > > or ".jpeg" the file saves as a JPG. If you type ".tiff" it saves as a
> > > TIF, etc.
> > 
> > Well obviously. A .tiff is a different format from a .jpg or .png and
> > the file sizes will be diffeent too.
> 
> You missed the point - GraphicConverter will change the actual file
> format being saved based on what you type as the filename extenstion.

That's my point.

> > A .txt file is just text. So is a .rtf file. 
> 
> Not strictly true. RTF contains text, but also contains formatting
> instructions, and in the case of Microsoft's version it can also
> contain images, tables, etc.

Of course. But it's in text form and therefore is still just text as
far as a text editor is concerned.

> > You can save your text file as .doc but that doesn't make the file be 
> > in Word format. 
> 
> *IF* BBEdit's Save As routines work the same way as GraphicConverter,
> then that's exactly what will happen - I'm not saying it does since
> I've never used it, but it is certainly possible to change the file
> format based on the filename extension you use.
> 
> Changing the filename extension in the Finder will of course not change
> the file format of any document. It will often simply change which
> application will try to open the document when double-clicked.

Exactly. And some which have their own proprietary format, such as Word
with its .doc format, can nonetheless open a text file that happens to
have a .doc suffix without complaining about it.

> > Try writing some simple text in a Word document, save it as .doc, and
> > open that with BBedit and see how far you get.
> 
> I don't know about BBEdit, but Apple's TextEdit will certainly open
> simple (and even mildly comlex) Word .doc documents and retain the
> formatting where possible.

Because they have a converter to do so.

-- 
"If you're not able to ask questions and deal with the answers without feeling 
that someone has called your intelligence or competence into question, don't 
ask questions on Usenet where the answers won't be carefully tailored to avoid
tripping your hair-trigger insecurities."                  - D M Procida, UCSM

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#58219

Your Name wrote:
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> Well obviously. A .tiff is a different format from a .jpg or .png and
>> the file sizes will be diffeent too.
>
> You missed the point - GraphicConverter will change the actual file
> format being saved based on what you type as the filename extenstion.

And BBEdit reacts extactly the same way...

>> A .txt file is just text. So is a .rtf file.
>
> Not strictly true. RTF contains text, but also contains formatting
> instructions, and in the case of Microsoft's version it can also
> contain images, tables, etc.

Well... yes and no... MSWD's for Mac RTF format handles both tables and 
images, but the Windows version doesn't handle images and styled tables 
made on a MSWD for Mac (or any other Mac app) when these are saved in RTF.

To use Mac created RTF files with fully content it's just to rename to 
.doc and even styled tables are kept styled in MSWD for Windows... - The 
other way round - i.e. opening a formatted RTF file created with a 
Windows Word will always open correctly in both MSWD 2008/2011 for Mac 
as well as in NisusWriter Pro ver. 1,4 and later.

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#58208

Your Name wrote:
> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> wrote:
>>> Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor. It has no direct saving
>>> functionality into /any/ file format. But it handles plain and styled
>>> text and it can be used for editing RTF and other files, because it
>>> always keeps the primary format as the saving format. I.e. if you open a
>>> TXT file in BBEdit and use the COM+S, it will keep the .txt format, and
>>> if you open a RTF file, hit COM+S it will keep the .rtf format
>>>
>>> Another benefit is that BBEdit can save directly into customized
>>> formats. I.e. if you open a TXT file (or any other file format), make
>>> your changes and select 'Save As' you can change the suffix from .txt to
>>> .rtf, .doc, docx etc, and the saved tocument will be a document of the
>>> chosen file format. - And hereto fully formattings are kept as the
>>> original an d it's possible to add styled text to a .txt file!
>>>
>>> Just tried with a RTF file which I first saved as a TXT file - all
>>> formattings are kept, - and then again back to a TXT file - all
>>> formattings are kept.
>>
>> You seem to be implying that BBedit knows how to save a text file in
>> Word format. RTF is just text, nothing special about it. Some
>> applications will *interpret* it as styled text, but that's a different
>> story.
>>
>> Changing the suffix doesn't change the file format. It just changes the
>> suffix. The file content is unaltered.
>
> I don't know about BBEdit, but GraphicConverter is definitely "suffix
> aware" - when in a Save As window, whatever suffix you type on the
> filename will automatically change the file format it saves as (as will
> choosing the format from the pop-up menu of course). If you type ".jpg"
> or ".jpeg" the file saves as a JPG. If you type ".tiff" it saves as a
> TIF, etc.

And it's exactly the same way BBEdit reacts for most file formats. There 
are still formats that BBEdit can't handle without a plug-in installed.

I've just now tried it out once more... Opened a blank BBEdit file, put 
some text - this answer - into it and hit the 'Save As'. There is no 
suffix specified in the titlebox. - First when you enter a suffix and 
save the file, it will be associated to be the selected file format, - 
and it works!

Another of the old-timers - Tex-Edit Plus - handles it in another way. 
Here you need to use 'Save As' and select the file format you need to use...

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#58207

Tim Streater wrote:
> ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid> wrote:
>> Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor. It has no direct saving
>> functionality into /any/ file format. But it handles plain and styled
>> text and it can be used for editing RTF and other files, because it
>> always keeps the primary format as the saving format. I.e. if you open
>> a TXT file in BBEdit and use the COM+S, it will keep the .txt format,
>> and if you open a RTF file, hit COM+S it will keep the .rtf format
>>
>> Another benefit is that BBEdit can save directly into customized
>> formats. I.e. if you open a TXT file (or any other file format), make
>> your changes and select 'Save As' you can change the suffix from .txt
>> to .rtf, .doc, docx etc, and the saved tocument will be a document of
>> the chosen file format. - And hereto fully formattings are kept as the
>> original an d it's possible to add styled text to a .txt file!
>>
>> Just tried with a RTF file which I first saved as a TXT file - all
>> formattings are kept, - and then again back to a TXT file - all
>> formattings are kept.
>
> You seem to be implying that BBedit knows how to save a text file in
> Word format. RTF is just text, nothing special about it. Some
> applications will *interpret* it as styled text, but that's a different
> story.
>
> Changing the suffix doesn't change the file format. It just changes the
> suffix. The file content is unaltered.

Well... I've used BBEdit to edit and change both text files and 
databases from some specific applications to be able to be read and used 
in other applications... So if it is only the suffix it changes, then it 
shouldn't be possible to use those changed files/databases in other 
applications.

I think you forget here that BBEdit is able to use a variety of plug-ins 
meant for these purposes. - In the classic OS days I had tons of those 
plug-ins which I haven't upgraded, because it will be too exensicve for 
me now where I don't use BBEdit that much anymore. - If i still need 
these possibilities I still walk onto my old OS 9.x machine and startup 
BBEdit 6.3 - the latest I have for Classic and which handles all my 
plug-ins...

There are of course file types and formats that cannot be edited by 
BBEdit since they are encrypted. In those cases one will need the 
resource to be able to edit/save again.

Cheers, Erik Richard

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-daneRE@MOVEstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
Openoffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#58199

In article <lh4t1v$a2s$1@solani.org>, ErikRS <mac-dane@is.invalid>
wrote:
> Your Name wrote:
> > Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> My 10.6 has gone the way of all flesh and with it the ability to properly
> >> edit RTF in XCode. Are there any other edittors that can edit RTF with
> >> all the usual functionality like auto-indent?
> >
> > BBEdit is the more usual text editor used by programmers and HTML
> > website creators, but I don't know if it handles RTF. RTF isn't really
> > needed for such an editor when the colouring, etc. can be done
> > on-the-fly on screen. http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/
> 
> Yes, BBEdit is the ultimate text editor.
...
> 
> The problem with BBEdit is that it's relatively expensive for non-pro 
> users, and the learning curve is rather steep...

The Bare Bones company also makes free(?) TextWrangler, but I'm not
sure how much functionality has been missing from it compared to
BBEdit.
http://www.barebones.com/products/textwrangler/

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