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Re: Newsreaders

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  Re: Newsreaders Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> - 2014-02-16 15:20 +0000
    Re: Newsreaders Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-03-09 23:47 -0700
      Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-10 15:19 +0000
      Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-03-10 12:17 -0700
      Re: Newsreaders <address_is@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-16 04:24 +0000
        Re: Newsreaders Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-03-16 00:55 -0700
      Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-03-16 08:14 -0500
        Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-03-16 07:33 -0700
          Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-03-16 10:47 -0400
            Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-16 17:01 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-03-16 13:34 -0400
                Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-16 19:17 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-16 20:18 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-03-16 16:47 -0400
                Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-16 20:59 +0000
                  Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-03-16 17:49 -0400
                  Re: Newsreaders Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> - 2014-03-18 20:23 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2014-03-17 07:53 +1100
              Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-03-16 17:58 -0400
                Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-16 22:26 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-03-16 16:09 -0700
          Re: Newsreaders Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-03-16 11:48 -0700
          Re: Newsreaders Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2014-03-28 15:14 -0600
      Re: Newsreaders Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBASURA@attglobal.net> - 2014-03-16 12:21 -0500
        Re: Newsreaders Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-03-16 11:42 -0700

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#21121 — Re: Newsreaders

In comp.sys.mac.apps Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> 
> I did buy Unison, and it is very nice in many respects.  I really can't
> fault it for text groups, which is all I do.

I've spent the last few days installing and configuring tin. Seems to
work great although this is my first real post.

[...hmm just how does pico wrap lines ...guess I manually insert linebreaks
now to avoid sending garbage]

Today I took a quick peek at Unison trial. Installing and configuring it
took only 2 minutes and the UI seemed OK. Might even buy it to support the
Mac ecosystem because CLI clients' learning curve IS quite steep.

Guess I'll stick to tin for now. I installed also slrn -- does it have any
major advantages over tin?

-- 
Matti Haveri <mattiDOThaveriATgmailDOTeiroskaaDOTcom> remove ei roskaa

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#21450

On 2014-02-16 15:20:35 +0000, Matti Haveri said:

> In comp.sys.mac.apps Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I did buy Unison, and it is very nice in many respects.  I really can't
>> fault it for text groups, which is all I do.
> 
> I've spent the last few days installing and configuring tin. Seems to
> work great although this is my first real post.
> 
> [...hmm just how does pico wrap lines ...guess I manually insert linebreaks
> now to avoid sending garbage]
> 
> Today I took a quick peek at Unison trial. Installing and configuring it
> took only 2 minutes and the UI seemed OK. Might even buy it to support the
> Mac ecosystem because CLI clients' learning curve IS quite steep.
> 
> Guess I'll stick to tin for now. I installed also slrn -- does it have any
> major advantages over tin?

Unison usually works pretty well, except for three issues.  Sometimes 
it decides to consume an entire processor's resources for an indefinite 
amount of time.  It remains responsive, but to correct the condition 
one must quit and restart.  Sometimes it decides to mix up the posts of 
two or more recently clicked threads willy-nilly.  Sometimes it just 
decides to crash entirely.  I purchased the program but am saddened by 
the fact that the developers are not fixing these bugs despite the fact 
that I usually email in the crash reports.

Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted 
to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.

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#21457

On 2014-03-10, Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted 
> to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.

Don't hold your breath.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#21467

In article <lfjn6s$np$1@dont-email.me>, Oregonian Haruspex
<bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted 
> to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.

Last I heard, he stopped developing it, a month or two ago.

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#21549

Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-16 15:20:35 +0000, Matti Haveri said:
> 
>> In comp.sys.mac.apps Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>>>>> I did buy Unison, and it is very nice in many respects.  I really can't
>>> fault it for text groups, which is all I do.
>>> I've spent the last few days installing and configuring tin. Seems to
>> work great although this is my first real post.
>>> [...hmm just how does pico wrap lines ...guess I manually insert linebreaks
>> now to avoid sending garbage]
>>> Today I took a quick peek at Unison trial. Installing and configuring it
>> took only 2 minutes and the UI seemed OK. Might even buy it to support the
>> Mac ecosystem because CLI clients' learning curve IS quite steep.
>>> Guess I'll stick to tin for now. I installed also slrn -- does it have any
>> major advantages over tin?
> 
> Unison usually works pretty well, except for three issues.  Sometimes it
> decides to consume an entire processor's resources for an indefinite
> amount of time.  It remains responsive, but to correct the condition one
> must quit and restart.  Sometimes it decides to mix up the posts of two
> or more recently clicked threads willy-nilly.  Sometimes it just decides
> to crash entirely.  I purchased the program but am saddened by the fact
> that the developers are not fixing these bugs despite the fact that I
> usually email in the crash reports.
> 
> Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted
> to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.

I found an application named Nemo that works reasonably well and is free.

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#21550

In article 
<1215564925416633231.114706address_is-invalid.invalid@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>,
 <address_is@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On 2014-02-16 15:20:35 +0000, Matti Haveri said:
> > 
> >> In comp.sys.mac.apps Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> >>>>> I did buy Unison, and it is very nice in many respects.  I really can't
> >>> fault it for text groups, which is all I do.
> >>> I've spent the last few days installing and configuring tin. Seems to
> >> work great although this is my first real post.
> >>> [...hmm just how does pico wrap lines ...guess I manually insert 
> >>> linebreaks
> >> now to avoid sending garbage]
> >>> Today I took a quick peek at Unison trial. Installing and configuring it
> >> took only 2 minutes and the UI seemed OK. Might even buy it to support the
> >> Mac ecosystem because CLI clients' learning curve IS quite steep.
> >>> Guess I'll stick to tin for now. I installed also slrn -- does it have 
> >>> any
> >> major advantages over tin?
> > 
> > Unison usually works pretty well, except for three issues.  Sometimes it
> > decides to consume an entire processor's resources for an indefinite
> > amount of time.  It remains responsive, but to correct the condition one
> > must quit and restart.  Sometimes it decides to mix up the posts of two
> > or more recently clicked threads willy-nilly.  Sometimes it just decides
> > to crash entirely.  I purchased the program but am saddened by the fact
> > that the developers are not fixing these bugs despite the fact that I
> > usually email in the crash reports.
> > 
> > Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted
> > to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.
> 
> I found an application named Nemo that works reasonably well and is free.

Nemo has been in paid beta for 3 years. Good luck with that.

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#21552

On 2014-03-10 06:47:57 +0000, Oregonian Haruspex said:

> On 2014-02-16 15:20:35 +0000, Matti Haveri said:
> 
>> In comp.sys.mac.apps Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I did buy Unison, and it is very nice in many respects.  I really can't
>>> fault it for text groups, which is all I do.
>> 
>> I've spent the last few days installing and configuring tin. Seems to
>> work great although this is my first real post.
>> 
>> [...hmm just how does pico wrap lines ...guess I manually insert linebreaks
>> now to avoid sending garbage]
>> 
>> Today I took a quick peek at Unison trial. Installing and configuring it
>> took only 2 minutes and the UI seemed OK. Might even buy it to support the
>> Mac ecosystem because CLI clients' learning curve IS quite steep.
>> 
>> Guess I'll stick to tin for now. I installed also slrn -- does it have any
>> major advantages over tin?
> 
> Unison usually works pretty well, except for three issues.  Sometimes 
> it decides to consume an entire processor's resources for an indefinite 
> amount of time.  It remains responsive, but to correct the condition 
> one must quit and restart.  Sometimes it decides to mix up the posts of 
> two or more recently clicked threads willy-nilly.  Sometimes it just 
> decides to crash entirely.  I purchased the program but am saddened by 
> the fact that the developers are not fixing these bugs despite the fact 
> that I usually email in the crash reports.
> 
> Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted 
> to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.

Thoth DID have an active developer.  But he's dropped it again.  No 
updates, and you can't buy it and get the unlocking key any more.

-- 
Lloyd

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#21553

In article <bolmd6FrvqdU1@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd  E Parsons
<lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

> > Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted 
> > to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.
> 
> Thoth DID have an active developer.  But he's dropped it again.  No 
> updates, and you can't buy it and get the unlocking key any more.

And directly from the Thoth web page:

"Registering and Downloading
"Unfortunately, after a decade of consistently poor sales, Thoth is no
longer available for downloading or registration. The possible influx
of registrations from MT-NewsWatcher users updating to Mavericks and
needing a new newsreader could have kept Thoth going for another couple
of years, but the registrations never materialized."

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#21554

In article <160320140733290477%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <bolmd6FrvqdU1@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd  E Parsons
> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> 
> > > Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted 
> > > to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.
> > 
> > Thoth DID have an active developer.  But he's dropped it again.  No 
> > updates, and you can't buy it and get the unlocking key any more.
> 
> And directly from the Thoth web page:
> 
> "Registering and Downloading
> "Unfortunately, after a decade of consistently poor sales, Thoth is no
> longer available for downloading or registration. The possible influx
> of registrations from MT-NewsWatcher users updating to Mavericks and
> needing a new newsreader could have kept Thoth going for another couple
> of years, but the registrations never materialized."

"... poor sales"?

He's not allowed to sell it. He never has been. That's always been the 
sticking point with this asshole. He wants money for something he has no 
right to collect money from. It's like he's in church and wants to take 
money out of the collection plate.
-- 
Where's the Vangelis music?
Pris' tongue is sticking out in in the wide shot after Batty has kissed her.
They have put back more tits into the Zhora dressing  room scene.
  -- notes for Blade Runner

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#21557

On 2014-03-16, Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <160320140733290477%michelle@michelle.org>,
>  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>> In article <bolmd6FrvqdU1@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd  E Parsons
>> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > > Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted 
>> > > to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.
>> > 
>> > Thoth DID have an active developer.  But he's dropped it again.  No 
>> > updates, and you can't buy it and get the unlocking key any more.
>> 
>> And directly from the Thoth web page:
>> 
>> "Registering and Downloading
>> "Unfortunately, after a decade of consistently poor sales, Thoth is no
>> longer available for downloading or registration. The possible influx
>> of registrations from MT-NewsWatcher users updating to Mavericks and
>> needing a new newsreader could have kept Thoth going for another couple
>> of years, but the registrations never materialized."
>
> "... poor sales"?
>
> He's not allowed to sell it. He never has been. That's always been the 
> sticking point with this asshole. He wants money for something he has no 
> right to collect money from. It's like he's in church and wants to take 
> money out of the collection plate.

Yup. NewsWatcher source code was released by John Norstad (the original
creator of NewsWatcher) as free ware with this notice:

"Please note that both the NewsWatcher program and NewsWatcher's source
code are copyright by Northwestern University. You may not use either of
them for profit."

If you'll recall, Brian (the author of Thoth) was also the author of
YA-NewsWatcher, which was based directly on NewsWatcher source code.
Initially YA-NewsWatcher was free; but later Brian decided to charge for
YA-NewsWatcher. Naturally, this was in violation of the original
author's intent, and after significant push back from both developers
and users, he refunded those sales. However, later, he released Thoth -
another NewsWatcher derivative, and *drum roll* charged for it.

Initially, Brian said that Thoth was based on Newswatcher and still
contained code from it. It was only after people pointed out the license
restrictions were such that he couldn't sell it that he reversed that
and began to claim that he had eliminated all Northwestern University
code from it.

I'm pretty sure at one point in time I even recall seeing disassembled
code of Thoth compared with disassembled code of NewsWatcher (either on
a web site or right here on Usenet), and they were extremely similar or
exactly the same in a some cases, indicating that the author of Thoth
did indeed use code from NewsWatcher, and was charging for it yet again. 

At any rate, since Thoth was released, Brian has decided *several* times
to publicly bitch and moan to his existing customers that unless sales
pick up, he would stop supporting Thoth and stop accepting sales of
Thoth, leaving his customers out in the cold. And he has actually done
that several times now. He also did this with YA-NewsWatcher in the
past. 

I would never support a software developer who behaves in this manner.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#21559

In article <bom3nlFu6hnU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> If you'll recall, Brian (the author of Thoth) was also the author of
> YA-NewsWatcher, which was based directly on NewsWatcher source code.
> Initially YA-NewsWatcher was free; but later Brian decided to charge for
> YA-NewsWatcher. Naturally, this was in violation of the original
> author's intent, and after significant push back from both developers
> and users, he refunded those sales. However, later, he released Thoth -
> another NewsWatcher derivative, and *drum roll* charged for it.

I don't remember him actually charging for Newswatcher per se. I _do_ 
remember that he bundled it with some atrocious document viewer and 
demanded that you pay for the viewer (but not for NW); he lambasted 
anyone who didn't want to buy his stupid viewer (this was way after 
Adobe Reader was launched). He really gave money back?
-- 
Where's the Vangelis music?
Pris' tongue is sticking out in in the wide shot after Batty has kissed her.
They have put back more tits into the Zhora dressing  room scene.
  -- notes for Blade Runner

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#21563

On 2014-03-16, Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <bom3nlFu6hnU1@mid.individual.net>,
>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> If you'll recall, Brian (the author of Thoth) was also the author of
>> YA-NewsWatcher, which was based directly on NewsWatcher source code.
>> Initially YA-NewsWatcher was free; but later Brian decided to charge for
>> YA-NewsWatcher. Naturally, this was in violation of the original
>> author's intent, and after significant push back from both developers
>> and users, he refunded those sales. However, later, he released Thoth -
>> another NewsWatcher derivative, and *drum roll* charged for it.
>
> I don't remember him actually charging for Newswatcher per se. I _do_ 
> remember that he bundled it with some atrocious document viewer and 
> demanded that you pay for the viewer (but not for NW); he lambasted 
> anyone who didn't want to buy his stupid viewer (this was way after 
> Adobe Reader was launched). He really gave money back?

Reportedly.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#21564

In message <bom3nlFu6hnU1@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-03-16, Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <160320140733290477%michelle@michelle.org>,
>>  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <bolmd6FrvqdU1@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd  E Parsons
>>> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > > Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted 
>>> > > to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.
>>> > 
>>> > Thoth DID have an active developer.  But he's dropped it again.  No 
>>> > updates, and you can't buy it and get the unlocking key any more.
>>> 
>>> And directly from the Thoth web page:
>>> 
>>> "Registering and Downloading
>>> "Unfortunately, after a decade of consistently poor sales, Thoth is no
>>> longer available for downloading or registration. The possible influx
>>> of registrations from MT-NewsWatcher users updating to Mavericks and
>>> needing a new newsreader could have kept Thoth going for another couple
>>> of years, but the registrations never materialized."
>>
>> "... poor sales"?
>>
>> He's not allowed to sell it. He never has been. That's always been the 
>> sticking point with this asshole. He wants money for something he has no 
>> right to collect money from. It's like he's in church and wants to take 
>> money out of the collection plate.

> Yup. NewsWatcher source code was released by John Norstad (the original
> creator of NewsWatcher) as free ware with this notice:

> "Please note that both the NewsWatcher program and NewsWatcher's source
> code are copyright by Northwestern University. You may not use either of
> them for profit."

> If you'll recall, Brian (the author of Thoth) was also the author of
> YA-NewsWatcher, which was based directly on NewsWatcher source code.
> Initially YA-NewsWatcher was free; but later Brian decided to charge for
> YA-NewsWatcher. Naturally, this was in violation of the original
> author's intent, and after significant push back from both developers
> and users, he refunded those sales. However, later, he released Thoth -
> another NewsWatcher derivative, and *drum roll* charged for it.

> Initially, Brian said that Thoth was based on Newswatcher and still
> contained code from it. It was only after people pointed out the license
> restrictions were such that he couldn't sell it that he reversed that
> and began to claim that he had eliminated all Northwestern University
> code from it.

> I'm pretty sure at one point in time I even recall seeing disassembled
> code of Thoth compared with disassembled code of NewsWatcher (either on
> a web site or right here on Usenet), and they were extremely similar or
> exactly the same in a some cases, indicating that the author of Thoth
> did indeed use code from NewsWatcher, and was charging for it yet again. 

Yes, Brian was a lying sack of shit.

> At any rate, since Thoth was released, Brian has decided *several* times
> to publicly bitch and moan to his existing customers that unless sales
> pick up, he would stop supporting Thoth and stop accepting sales of
> Thoth, leaving his customers out in the cold. And he has actually done
> that several times now. He also did this with YA-NewsWatcher in the
> past. 

He's also a weasel, a crook, a liar, and a thief.

> I would never support a software developer who behaves in this manner.

Exactly.

-- 
Two, Four, Six, Eight! Time to Transubstantiate!

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#21566

On 2014.03.16, 13:01 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-03-16, Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <160320140733290477%michelle@michelle.org>,
>>   Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <bolmd6FrvqdU1@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd  E Parsons
>>> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted
>>>>> to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.
>>>>
>>>> Thoth DID have an active developer.  But he's dropped it again.  No
>>>> updates, and you can't buy it and get the unlocking key any more.
>>>
>>> And directly from the Thoth web page:
>>>
>>> "Registering and Downloading
>>> "Unfortunately, after a decade of consistently poor sales, Thoth is no
>>> longer available for downloading or registration. The possible influx
>>> of registrations from MT-NewsWatcher users updating to Mavericks and
>>> needing a new newsreader could have kept Thoth going for another couple
>>> of years, but the registrations never materialized."
>>
>> "... poor sales"?
>>
>> He's not allowed to sell it. He never has been. That's always been the
>> sticking point with this asshole. He wants money for something he has no
>> right to collect money from. It's like he's in church and wants to take
>> money out of the collection plate.
>
> Yup. NewsWatcher source code was released by John Norstad (the original
> creator of NewsWatcher) as free ware with this notice:
>
> "Please note that both the NewsWatcher program and NewsWatcher's source
> code are copyright by Northwestern University. You may not use either of
> them for profit."
>
> If you'll recall, Brian (the author of Thoth) was also the author of
> YA-NewsWatcher, which was based directly on NewsWatcher source code.
> Initially YA-NewsWatcher was free; but later Brian decided to charge for
> YA-NewsWatcher. Naturally, this was in violation of the original
> author's intent, and after significant push back from both developers
> and users, he refunded those sales. However, later, he released Thoth -
> another NewsWatcher derivative, and *drum roll* charged for it.
>
> Initially, Brian said that Thoth was based on Newswatcher and still
> contained code from it. It was only after people pointed out the license
> restrictions were such that he couldn't sell it that he reversed that
> and began to claim that he had eliminated all Northwestern University
> code from it.

> I'm pretty sure at one point in time I even recall seeing disassembled
> code of Thoth compared with disassembled code of NewsWatcher (either on
> a web site or right here on Usenet), and they were extremely similar or
> exactly the same in a some cases, indicating that the author of Thoth
> did indeed use code from NewsWatcher, and was charging for it yet again.

You have to be careful with disassembled code - the similarities can be 
libraries that both versions would reasonably include; macro call frames 
to same; various things that would be done in a generically similar 
manner and so on.  (Note that switches at compile time may leave a lot 
of debug data in the code including the symbols the author used - in 
that case it would be a dead giveaway).

The original (university code) may also have included open source code 
as well and it's reasonable for the next guy to be using the same stuff. 
  That would be obfuscated in the disassembled code.

But if there was some higher level resemblance to the structure of the 
code, data structures (which are really not obvious with disassembled 
code) then there may be something to that.

> At any rate, since Thoth was released, Brian has decided *several* times
> to publicly bitch and moan to his existing customers that unless sales
> pick up, he would stop supporting Thoth and stop accepting sales of
> Thoth, leaving his customers out in the cold. And he has actually done
> that several times now. He also did this with YA-NewsWatcher in the
> past.
>
> I would never support a software developer who behaves in this manner.

I don't know the details and don't care very much - but in the end if 
Thoth and NW are no longer available it's because some people weren't 
feeling the love (whether the admiration and support of the community or 
beer + pizza money).

Thunderbird, which people either accept as "good enough" or hate is 
maintained by a pretty large open source community.  The focus is more 
on the e-mail side - but it is serviceable.  I have Unison 2 also, but I 
use Thunderbird much more.

-- 
   Those who have reduced our privacy, whether they are state
   or commercial actors, prefer that we do not reduce theirs.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

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#21568

On 2014-03-16, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.03.16, 13:01 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-03-16, Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <160320140733290477%michelle@michelle.org>,
>>>   Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <bolmd6FrvqdU1@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd  E Parsons
>>>> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted
>>>>>> to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoth DID have an active developer.  But he's dropped it again.  No
>>>>> updates, and you can't buy it and get the unlocking key any more.
>>>>
>>>> And directly from the Thoth web page:
>>>>
>>>> "Registering and Downloading
>>>> "Unfortunately, after a decade of consistently poor sales, Thoth is no
>>>> longer available for downloading or registration. The possible influx
>>>> of registrations from MT-NewsWatcher users updating to Mavericks and
>>>> needing a new newsreader could have kept Thoth going for another couple
>>>> of years, but the registrations never materialized."
>>>
>>> "... poor sales"?
>>>
>>> He's not allowed to sell it. He never has been. That's always been the
>>> sticking point with this asshole. He wants money for something he has no
>>> right to collect money from. It's like he's in church and wants to take
>>> money out of the collection plate.
>>
>> Yup. NewsWatcher source code was released by John Norstad (the original
>> creator of NewsWatcher) as free ware with this notice:
>>
>> "Please note that both the NewsWatcher program and NewsWatcher's source
>> code are copyright by Northwestern University. You may not use either of
>> them for profit."
>>
>> If you'll recall, Brian (the author of Thoth) was also the author of
>> YA-NewsWatcher, which was based directly on NewsWatcher source code.
>> Initially YA-NewsWatcher was free; but later Brian decided to charge for
>> YA-NewsWatcher. Naturally, this was in violation of the original
>> author's intent, and after significant push back from both developers
>> and users, he refunded those sales. However, later, he released Thoth -
>> another NewsWatcher derivative, and *drum roll* charged for it.
>>
>> Initially, Brian said that Thoth was based on Newswatcher and still
>> contained code from it. It was only after people pointed out the license
>> restrictions were such that he couldn't sell it that he reversed that
>> and began to claim that he had eliminated all Northwestern University
>> code from it.
>
>> I'm pretty sure at one point in time I even recall seeing disassembled
>> code of Thoth compared with disassembled code of NewsWatcher (either on
>> a web site or right here on Usenet), and they were extremely similar or
>> exactly the same in a some cases, indicating that the author of Thoth
>> did indeed use code from NewsWatcher, and was charging for it yet again.
>
> You have to be careful with disassembled code - the similarities can be 
> libraries that both versions would reasonably include; macro call frames 
> to same; various things that would be done in a generically similar 
> manner and so on.  (Note that switches at compile time may leave a lot 
> of debug data in the code including the symbols the author used - in 
> that case it would be a dead giveaway).

This was discussed, as I recall, and it was determined that the code in
question was a unique part of NewsWatcher code that had been effectively
duplicated in both YA-NewsWatcher and Thoth. It's been ages since I read
all of it, so someone with better memory or an archive of the discussion
would be more of an authority on it than me.

> The original (university code) may also have included open source code 
> as well and it's reasonable for the next guy to be using the same stuff. 
>   That would be obfuscated in the disassembled code.

Depends on what part of the code you're talking about, of course.

> But if there was some higher level resemblance to the structure of the 
> code, data structures (which are really not obvious with disassembled 
> code) then there may be something to that.

That was my understanding of it at the time.

>> At any rate, since Thoth was released, Brian has decided *several* times
>> to publicly bitch and moan to his existing customers that unless sales
>> pick up, he would stop supporting Thoth and stop accepting sales of
>> Thoth, leaving his customers out in the cold. And he has actually done
>> that several times now. He also did this with YA-NewsWatcher in the
>> past.
>>
>> I would never support a software developer who behaves in this manner.
>
> I don't know the details and don't care very much - but in the end if 
> Thoth and NW are no longer available it's because some people weren't 
> feeling the love (whether the admiration and support of the community or 
> beer + pizza money).

I don't think there was any love to feel from Brian. The user community
showed him some support though, until he stepped on them enough times,
that is.

> Thunderbird, which people either accept as "good enough" or hate is 
> maintained by a pretty large open source community.  The focus is more 
> on the e-mail side - but it is serviceable.  I have Unison 2 also, but I 
> use Thunderbird much more.

I use slrn. It's all I need. It's good we still have some choices.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#21571

In article <bomhm0F30u2U1@mid.individual.net>,
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> I use slrn. It's all I need. It's good we still have some choices.

That's a good choice. I've used slrn and tin and pine and Gnus. If I go 
back to a console-based newsreader, I'll use Gnus. Somewhere on a disk 
in a drawer I've got all the weird customizations that I wasted hours on.

In the meantime, 10.7.5 still runs MTNW.
-- 
Where's the Vangelis music?
Pris' tongue is sticking out in in the wide shot after Batty has kissed her.
They have put back more tits into the Zhora dressing  room scene.
  -- notes for Blade Runner

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#21602

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> This was discussed, as I recall, and it was determined that the code in
> question was a unique part of NewsWatcher code that had been effectively
> duplicated in both YA-NewsWatcher and Thoth. It's been ages since I read
> all of it, so someone with better memory or an archive of the discussion
> would be more of an authority on it than me.

Hey I vividly remember those discussions, too!

I have now reverted to tin which I used 1993 via a dumb terminal. A flash
from the past :-|

...FWIW I also vividly remember the heated arguments (an understatement,
heh) about Quickdraw GX vs. NeXT Display Postscript in spring 1997 in
the newsgroups when Apple bought NeXT.

Notable posters were Lawson English advocating GX and NeXT/OPENSTEP
Developer John Kheit advocating of NeXT Display Postscript.

...A few years ago I asked here who was right in the end?
Or did it even matter? I got one answer:

"Quartz won. Which isn't DPS. In many ways it is better than DPS. But it
lacks dynamic postscript interpretation.

Quickdraw GX was an attempt to bring to QuickDraw a set of PostScript
features it was lacking. Quartz made the question moot as it implemented
the PostScript image model and provided a QuickDraw API for apps that
needed it via Carbon. The few GX features were missing from Quartz
features were missing made it to OSX via Quartz Extreme. The final
insult was the use of CUPS for printing. A non-apple printer driver
stack that is full 180 from GX.

So GX lost. Few noticed. Even fewer cared."

...oops, did I open that can of worms again... ;-)

-- 
Matti Haveri <mattiDOThaveriATgmailDOTeiroskaaDOTcom> remove ei roskaa

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#21567

In article <5325b989$0$61394$c3e8da3$5e5e430d@news.astraweb.com>,
 Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's like he's in church and wants to take 
> money out of the collection plate.

A Catholic priest, an Anglican parson and a
rabbi were discussing how they divided the
money that they collected between the poor of
their parish (God's share), and themselves.

The priest said: "I draw a square on the
ground, throw the money into the air and what
lands in the square is mine; the rest is
God's share."

The parson said: "I draw a circle on the
ground, throw the money in the air and what
lands inside the circle is mine; the rest is
for the poor."

The rabbi said: "It's simple. I throw all the
money in the air and what God wants, he
keeps. Anything that falls to the ground, I
keep."

-- 
dorayme

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#21573

In article <do_ray_me-0DD759.07532017032014@news.albasani.net>,
 dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> In article <5325b989$0$61394$c3e8da3$5e5e430d@news.astraweb.com>,
>  Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > It's like he's in church and wants to take 
> > money out of the collection plate.
> 
> A Catholic priest, an Anglican parson and a
> rabbi were discussing how they divided the
> money that they collected between the poor of
> their parish (God's share), and themselves.
> 
> The priest said: "I draw a square on the
> ground, throw the money into the air and what
> lands in the square is mine; the rest is
> God's share."
> 
> The parson said: "I draw a circle on the
> ground, throw the money in the air and what
> lands inside the circle is mine; the rest is
> for the poor."
> 
> The rabbi said: "It's simple. I throw all the
> money in the air and what God wants, he
> keeps. Anything that falls to the ground, I
> keep."

A rabbi, an imam and a Catholic priest walk into a pub in the Shankhill 
road. The barman looks at them and says "Get the fuck out o' here."
-- 
The caat is a wucked crayture.

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#21575

In message <53261e75$0$12697$c3e8da3$69010069@news.astraweb.com> 
  Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <do_ray_me-0DD759.07532017032014@news.albasani.net>,
>  dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> In article <5325b989$0$61394$c3e8da3$5e5e430d@news.astraweb.com>,
>>  Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > It's like he's in church and wants to take 
>> > money out of the collection plate.
>> 
>> A Catholic priest, an Anglican parson and a
>> rabbi were discussing how they divided the
>> money that they collected between the poor of
>> their parish (God's share), and themselves.
>> 
>> The priest said: "I draw a square on the
>> ground, throw the money into the air and what
>> lands in the square is mine; the rest is
>> God's share."
>> 
>> The parson said: "I draw a circle on the
>> ground, throw the money in the air and what
>> lands inside the circle is mine; the rest is
>> for the poor."
>> 
>> The rabbi said: "It's simple. I throw all the
>> money in the air and what God wants, he
>> keeps. Anything that falls to the ground, I
>> keep."

> A rabbi, an imam and a Catholic priest walk into a pub in the Shankhill 
> road. The barman looks at them and says "Get the fuck out o' here."

4 priests, 12 rabbis, and 24 lawyers walk into a bar. Bartender says,
"Is this a joke?"


-- 
Supposing there was justice for all, after all? For every unheeded
beggar, every harsh word, every neglected duty, every slight... every
choice... Because that was the point, wasn't it? You had to choose. You
might be right, you might be wrong, but you had to choose, knowing that
the rightness or wrongness might never be clear or even that you were
deciding between two sorts of wrong, that there was no right anywhere.
And always, always, you did it by yourself. You were the one there, on
the edge, watching and listening. Never any tears, never any apology,
never any regrets... You saved all that up in a way that could be used
when needed. --Carpe Jugulum

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