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Groups > comp.sys.mac.apps > #21568

Re: Newsreaders

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On 2014-03-16, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.03.16, 13:01 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-03-16, Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <160320140733290477%michelle@michelle.org>,
>>>   Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <bolmd6FrvqdU1@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd  E Parsons
>>>> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Thoth by contrast appears to have an active developer, and I am tempted
>>>>>> to try it just because I believe that he or she will act on bug reports.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoth DID have an active developer.  But he's dropped it again.  No
>>>>> updates, and you can't buy it and get the unlocking key any more.
>>>>
>>>> And directly from the Thoth web page:
>>>>
>>>> "Registering and Downloading
>>>> "Unfortunately, after a decade of consistently poor sales, Thoth is no
>>>> longer available for downloading or registration. The possible influx
>>>> of registrations from MT-NewsWatcher users updating to Mavericks and
>>>> needing a new newsreader could have kept Thoth going for another couple
>>>> of years, but the registrations never materialized."
>>>
>>> "... poor sales"?
>>>
>>> He's not allowed to sell it. He never has been. That's always been the
>>> sticking point with this asshole. He wants money for something he has no
>>> right to collect money from. It's like he's in church and wants to take
>>> money out of the collection plate.
>>
>> Yup. NewsWatcher source code was released by John Norstad (the original
>> creator of NewsWatcher) as free ware with this notice:
>>
>> "Please note that both the NewsWatcher program and NewsWatcher's source
>> code are copyright by Northwestern University. You may not use either of
>> them for profit."
>>
>> If you'll recall, Brian (the author of Thoth) was also the author of
>> YA-NewsWatcher, which was based directly on NewsWatcher source code.
>> Initially YA-NewsWatcher was free; but later Brian decided to charge for
>> YA-NewsWatcher. Naturally, this was in violation of the original
>> author's intent, and after significant push back from both developers
>> and users, he refunded those sales. However, later, he released Thoth -
>> another NewsWatcher derivative, and *drum roll* charged for it.
>>
>> Initially, Brian said that Thoth was based on Newswatcher and still
>> contained code from it. It was only after people pointed out the license
>> restrictions were such that he couldn't sell it that he reversed that
>> and began to claim that he had eliminated all Northwestern University
>> code from it.
>
>> I'm pretty sure at one point in time I even recall seeing disassembled
>> code of Thoth compared with disassembled code of NewsWatcher (either on
>> a web site or right here on Usenet), and they were extremely similar or
>> exactly the same in a some cases, indicating that the author of Thoth
>> did indeed use code from NewsWatcher, and was charging for it yet again.
>
> You have to be careful with disassembled code - the similarities can be 
> libraries that both versions would reasonably include; macro call frames 
> to same; various things that would be done in a generically similar 
> manner and so on.  (Note that switches at compile time may leave a lot 
> of debug data in the code including the symbols the author used - in 
> that case it would be a dead giveaway).

This was discussed, as I recall, and it was determined that the code in
question was a unique part of NewsWatcher code that had been effectively
duplicated in both YA-NewsWatcher and Thoth. It's been ages since I read
all of it, so someone with better memory or an archive of the discussion
would be more of an authority on it than me.

> The original (university code) may also have included open source code 
> as well and it's reasonable for the next guy to be using the same stuff. 
>   That would be obfuscated in the disassembled code.

Depends on what part of the code you're talking about, of course.

> But if there was some higher level resemblance to the structure of the 
> code, data structures (which are really not obvious with disassembled 
> code) then there may be something to that.

That was my understanding of it at the time.

>> At any rate, since Thoth was released, Brian has decided *several* times
>> to publicly bitch and moan to his existing customers that unless sales
>> pick up, he would stop supporting Thoth and stop accepting sales of
>> Thoth, leaving his customers out in the cold. And he has actually done
>> that several times now. He also did this with YA-NewsWatcher in the
>> past.
>>
>> I would never support a software developer who behaves in this manner.
>
> I don't know the details and don't care very much - but in the end if 
> Thoth and NW are no longer available it's because some people weren't 
> feeling the love (whether the admiration and support of the community or 
> beer + pizza money).

I don't think there was any love to feel from Brian. The user community
showed him some support though, until he stepped on them enough times,
that is.

> Thunderbird, which people either accept as "good enough" or hate is 
> maintained by a pretty large open source community.  The focus is more 
> on the e-mail side - but it is serviceable.  I have Unison 2 also, but I 
> use Thunderbird much more.

I use slrn. It's all I need. It's good we still have some choices.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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Thread

Re: Newsreaders Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> - 2014-02-16 15:20 +0000
  Re: Newsreaders Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-03-09 23:47 -0700
    Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-10 15:19 +0000
    Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-03-10 12:17 -0700
    Re: Newsreaders <address_is@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-16 04:24 +0000
      Re: Newsreaders Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-03-16 00:55 -0700
    Re: Newsreaders Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-03-16 08:14 -0500
      Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-03-16 07:33 -0700
        Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-03-16 10:47 -0400
          Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-16 17:01 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-03-16 13:34 -0400
              Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-16 19:17 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-16 20:18 +0000
            Re: Newsreaders Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-03-16 16:47 -0400
              Re: Newsreaders Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-03-16 20:59 +0000
                Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-03-16 17:49 -0400
                Re: Newsreaders Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> - 2014-03-18 20:23 +0000
          Re: Newsreaders dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2014-03-17 07:53 +1100
            Re: Newsreaders Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2014-03-16 17:58 -0400
              Re: Newsreaders Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-16 22:26 +0000
              Re: Newsreaders Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-03-16 16:09 -0700
        Re: Newsreaders Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-03-16 11:48 -0700
        Re: Newsreaders Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2014-03-28 15:14 -0600
    Re: Newsreaders Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBASURA@attglobal.net> - 2014-03-16 12:21 -0500
      Re: Newsreaders Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-03-16 11:42 -0700

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