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Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone

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  Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-06 22:57 -0800
    Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-01-08 07:18 +1100
      Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-08 16:17 -0800
        Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-01-09 13:53 +1100
          Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-11 22:22 -0800
            Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-01-12 19:34 +1100
              Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-13 21:08 -0800
                Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-01-14 16:32 +1100
            Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2012-01-13 11:46 +0000
              Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone Arno <me@privacy.net> - 2012-01-13 17:08 +0000
                Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-13 21:14 -0800
                  Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-01-14 16:41 +1100
                    Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-14 21:38 -0800
                      Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-01-15 20:37 +1100
                        Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-15 21:23 -0800
                          Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-01-16 20:14 +1100
                            Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-16 20:57 -0800
                              Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 19:44 +1100
                            Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 20:48 -0800
                              Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-16 16:10 +1100
                                Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-16 20:50 -0800
                                  Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 04:26 -0800
                                    Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 00:58 +1100
                                      Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-19 15:04 -0800
                                        Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-20 10:55 +1100
                                          Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-19 21:27 -0800
                                            Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-20 20:12 +1100
                                              Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-20 22:50 -0800
                                                Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-21 20:20 +1100
                                                  Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-21 22:08 -0800
                                                    Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-22 19:34 +1100
                                                      Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-23 05:09 +1100
                                                        Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-22 20:26 -0800
                                                      Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-22 20:46 -0800
                                                        Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-23 20:04 +1100
                                                          Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-23 18:49 -0800
                                                            Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-24 15:58 +1100
                                                              Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-23 21:09 -0800
                                                                Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2012-02-24 17:30 +1100
                                                                  Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-02-24 20:39 -0800
                                                    Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone Winniethepooh@100acrewoods.net (GMAN) - 2012-02-22 15:48 +0000
                  Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone Arno <me@privacy.net> - 2012-01-14 18:37 +0000
                    Re: Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> - 2012-01-14 21:42 -0800

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#2311 — Initialize / format 500 GB Momentus XT to make bootable clone

I have a Toshiba Satellite A660 PSAW3C-047017 running Windows 7
Professional 64-bit.

I bought a 500 GB Momentus XT in December so that I can clone to it
(bootable clone, not recoverable image).  I just bought and installed
Norton Ghost 15, but it can't see the drive, which is connected to the
laptop via eSATA.  Disk Management says I need to initialize the
disk.  I can't find an explanation of what exactly initialization
means.  What exactly does it do?

Various forum threads say conflicting things about the end effect of
initialization (whether it destroys data):

http://superuser.com/questions/283930/will-initializing-disk-make-data-unrecoverable
http://www.sevenforums.com/hardware-devices/29199-hard-drive-initialization-question.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080214215647AAYFNGS

Since it's a new HDD, I guess I don't have to worry about that?

Should I choose MBR (Master Boot Record) or GPT (GUID Partition
Table)?

Finally, this may be a bit Seagate-specific for a non-Seagate thread,
but I'll put it out there in case anyone can chime in.  I've read that
the Momentus XT has some intelligence built in to prevent performance-
degrading alignment problems with partition boundaries when Advanced
Format is used.  It also advertises built-in intelligence to keep most
frequently accessed content in the SDD part of the HDD.  Will any of
these be "messed up" by initialization, or the wrong partition style?
What about formatting, is there anything to be careful about?

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#2330

AndyHancock wrote:

> I have a Toshiba Satellite A660 PSAW3C-047017
> running Windows 7 Professional 64-bit.

> I bought a 500 GB Momentus XT in December so that I can
> clone to it (bootable clone, not recoverable image).  I just
> bought and installed Norton Ghost 15, but it can't see the drive,

Yeah, thats one downside with Ghost, it can be a bit stupid.

Mainly because it does stuff at the Win level.

> which is connected to the laptop via eSATA.  Disk Management
> says I need to initialize the disk.  I can't find an explanation of
> what exactly initialization means.  What exactly does it do?

Partitions and formats the drive.

> Various forum threads say conflicting things about the
> end effect of initialization (whether it destroys data):

Yeah, thats the downside I mentioned with various forums.

Yes, the data on the drive is lost.

> http://superuser.com/questions/283930/will-initializing-disk-make-data-unrecoverable
> http://www.sevenforums.com/hardware-devices/29199-hard-drive-initialization-question.html
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080214215647AAYFNGS

> Since it's a new HDD, I guess I don't have to worry about that?

Correct.

> Should I choose MBR (Master Boot Record) or GPT (GUID Partition Table)?

MBR. The drive isnt big enough to need GPT and will be what the current drive uses.

> Finally, this may be a bit Seagate-specific for a non-Seagate thread,
> but I'll put it out there in case anyone can chime in.  I've read that
> the Momentus XT has some intelligence built in to prevent performance-
> degrading alignment problems with partition boundaries when Advanced
> Format is used.  It also advertises built-in intelligence to keep most
> frequently accessed content in the SDD part of the HDD.  Will any of
> these be "messed up" by initialization, or the wrong partition style?

Should be fine. It should warn you if that can be a problem.

> What about formatting, is there anything to be careful about?

Nope. It will be replaced by the cloning anyway. 

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#2338

Thanks again, Rod.  It now shows up.  Now surfing to get smart about
partitioning.

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#2340

AndyHancock wrote:

> Thanks again, Rod.  It now shows up.
> Now surfing to get smart about partitioning.

You dont need to worry about that, whatever partitioning is
on the drive will be replaced when you clone the original drive. 

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#2362

On Jan 8, 9:53 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> AndyHancock wrote:
> > Thanks again, Rod.  It now shows up.
> > Now surfing to get smart about partitioning.
>
> You dont need to worry about that, whatever partitioning is
> on the drive will be replaced when you clone the original drive.

It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller, so
partition 2 (of 4), which is a mostly-empty C-drive, will need to be
shrunk on the fly.  Ghost will do this, but I suspect that I need to
do one partition at a time in order to shrink partition 2.

Assuming that I'm right (correct me if I'm wrong), then I need to
create partitions on the target drive before cloning.  Ghost's Copy
Drive shows a list of HDDs & their partitions for the user to specify
the target.  So I've read up on partitioning, and it's pretty easy
using the partitioning wizard in diskmgmt.msc.  I just ensure that I
choose the option not to format the drive, since I expect cloning to
clone the format.

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#2364

AndyHancock wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> AndyHancock wrote:

>>> Thanks again, Rod. It now shows up.
>>> Now surfing to get smart about partitioning.

>> You dont need to worry about that, whatever partitioning is
>> on the drive will be replaced when you clone the original drive.

> It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller, so partition
> 2 (of 4), which is a mostly-empty C-drive, will need to be shrunk on the fly.

Yes, but any decent cloner will just replace what partitioning
is on the target drive with the new partitioning, with the size
of that particular partition being adjusted as you specify.

> Ghost will do this, but I suspect that I need to do
> one partition at a time in order to shrink partition 2.

You dont with True Image, you just specify that partition 2 will be
smaller than on the original drive and it will just replace whatever
partition is on the target drive with the partitioning on the original
drive, with the size of that partition being shrunk as the only difference.

> Assuming that I'm right (correct me if I'm wrong), then I
> need to create partitions on the target drive before cloning.

Even if you do, you just need to specify the partitioning on the original\
drive with the exception of the size of the partition that will be shrunk.

> Ghost's Copy Drive shows a list of HDDs & their partitions for the user to specify the target.

You just specify the physical drive which will be the target with True
Image and specify that the drive which will be shrunk new size.

> So I've read up on partitioning, and it's pretty easy
> using the partitioning wizard in diskmgmt.msc.

Its even easier in disk management with Win7.

> I just ensure that I choose the option not to format
> the drive, since I expect cloning to clone the format.

Yes, that is correct. 

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#2370

On Jan 12, 3:34 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> AndyHancock wrote
>> It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller,
>> so partition 2 (of 4), which is a mostly-empty C-drive, will need
>> to be shrunk on the fly.
>
> Yes, but any decent cloner will just replace what partitioning is on
> the target drive with the new partitioning, with the size of that
> particular partition being adjusted as you specify.
>
>> Ghost will do this, but I suspect that I need to do one partition
>> at a time in order to shrink partition 2.
>
> You dont with True Image, you just specify that partition 2 will be
> smaller than on the original drive and it will just replace whatever
> partition is on the target drive with the partitioning on the
> original drive, with the size of that partition being shrunk as the
> only difference.

I already bought Norton....I should try to make it work.  I've already
returned an app that didn't fit the need.

I got some feedback on the vendor forum.  I don't have to partition
the target HDD, I should ensure that it is all unallocated space.  I
can clone partition 1 (boot) and partition 2 (c-drive).  Since the
addition of the c-drive partition would exceed the HDD capacity, it
will be shrunk.  I can further shrink it to make room for partitions 3
and 4.  Not quite as elegant as what you described for Acronis True
Image.

>> Assuming that I'm right (correct me if I'm wrong), then I need to
>> create partitions on the target drive before cloning.
>
> Even if you do, you just need to specify the partitioning on the
> original drive with the exception of the size of the partition that
> will be shrunk.

It's pretty well a selection of source partition from a list.  My
impression is that it will clone to a same-size partition if there is
room, otherwise, it shrinks the partition to fit.  You can further
shrink the cloned partition after cloning.

>> Ghost's Copy Drive shows a list of HDDs & their partitions for the
>> user to specify the target.
>
> You just specify the physical drive which will be the target with
> True Image and specify that the drive which will be shrunk new size.

Do you mean specify the *partition* that will be shrunk?

That sound very elegant.

>> So I've read up on partitioning, and it's pretty easy using the
>> partitioning wizard in diskmgmt.msc.
>
> Its even easier in disk management with Win7.

Yes, I really should refer to it as Disk Management.  Diskmgmt.msc is
just the command-line method of accessing it.  I forgot what brought
on the requirement for command-line access, but I have found it so
much faster than navigating the GUI.  (I'm formerly from a unix
environment).

>> I just ensure that I choose the option not to format the drive,
>> since I expect cloning to clone the format.
>
> Yes, that is correct.

Cool.  Thanks.

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#2372

AndyHancock wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> AndyHancock wrote

>>> It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD
>>> is smaller, so partition 2 (of 4), which is a mostly-empty
>>> C-drive, will need to be shrunk on the fly.

>> Yes, but any decent cloner will just replace what partitioning
>> is on the target drive with the new partitioning, with the size
>> of that particular partition being adjusted as you specify.

>>> Ghost will do this, but I suspect that I need to do one partition
>>> at a time in order to shrink partition 2.

>> You dont with True Image, you just specify that partition 2 will be
>> smaller than on the original drive and it will just replace whatever
>> partition is on the target drive with the partitioning on the original
>> drive, with the size of that partition being shrunk as the only difference.

> I already bought Norton....I should try to make it work.
> I've already returned an app that didn't fit the need.

> I got some feedback on the vendor forum.  I don't have to partition
> the target HDD, I should ensure that it is all unallocated space.  I
> can clone partition 1 (boot) and partition 2 (c-drive).  Since the
> addition of the c-drive partition would exceed the HDD capacity, it
> will be shrunk.  I can further shrink it to make room for partitions 3
> and 4.  Not quite as elegant as what you described for Acronis True
> Image.

Yeah, thats the main problem with Norton's some stuff is quite awkard to do.

>>> Assuming that I'm right (correct me if I'm wrong), then I
>>> need to create partitions on the target drive before cloning.

>> Even if you do, you just need to specify the partitioning on the
>> original drive with the exception of the size of the partition that
>> will be shrunk.

> It's pretty well a selection of source partition from a list.
> My impression is that it will clone to a same-size partition
> if there is room, otherwise, it shrinks the partition to fit.

I'd be surprised if it does operate like that.

> You can further shrink the cloned partition after cloning.

>>> Ghost's Copy Drive shows a list of HDDs & their partitions for the
>>> user to specify the target.

>> You just specify the physical drive which will be the target with
>> True Image and specify that the drive which will be shrunk new size.

> Do you mean specify the *partition* that will be shrunk?

Yes. You specify the size of the partitions on the target drive,
specifying which ones to leave the same size, which ones to
shrink and which to make bigger.

> That sound very elegant.

Yes, thats the best way to do it IMO.

>>> So I've read up on partitioning, and it's pretty easy using the
>>> partitioning wizard in diskmgmt.msc.

>> Its even easier in disk management with Win7.

> Yes, I really should refer to it as Disk Management.  Diskmgmt.msc is
> just the command-line method of accessing it.  I forgot what brought
> on the requirement for command-line access, but I have found it so
> much faster than navigating the GUI.

I dont find that myself, its a lot easier to just right mouse click
on the unallocated space and tell it to partition and format that.

You dont have to navigate the GUI with Win7, just type disk into the box and click on that.

> (I'm formerly from a unix environment).

I'm formerly from a DEC CLI environment but prefer a well designed GUI.

>>> I just ensure that I choose the option not to format the drive,
>>> since I expect cloning to clone the format.

>> Yes, that is correct.

> Cool.  Thanks. 

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#2367

In article <7296016e-979e-44d7-8f4e-b1626fe10ee9@ck5g2000vbb.googlegroup
s.com>, AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> writes

>It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller

You'll make things much easier and reduce the chances of an error
causing data loss if you clone onto the same size, or larger HDD.

-- 
(\__/)   
(='.'=) 
(")_(")

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#2368

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <7296016e-979e-44d7-8f4e-b1626fe10ee9@ck5g2000vbb.googlegroup
> s.com>, AndyHancock <andymhancock@gmail.com> writes

>>It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller

> You'll make things much easier and reduce the chances of an error
> causing data loss if you clone onto the same size, or larger HDD.

You can also clone to a larger 3.5" hdd first, reduce size there 
and then clone to the target. But in principle cloning to same 
size or larger is the only reasonable thing to do.

Arno
-- 
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: arno@wagner.name
GnuPG:  ID: 1E25338F  FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C  0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans

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#2371

On Jan 13, 12:08 pm, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Mike Tomlinson
> <m...@jasper.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <7296016e-979e-44d7-8f4e-b1626fe10...@ck5g2000vbb.googlegroup
>> s.com>, AndyHancock <andymhanc...@gmail.com> writes
>>>It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller
>>
>> You'll make things much easier and reduce the chances of an error
>> causing data loss if you clone onto the same size, or larger HDD.
>
> You can also clone to a larger 3.5" hdd first, reduce size there and
> then clone to the target. But in principle cloning to same size or
> larger is the only reasonable thing to do.

I certainly agree...however, I took into consideration the following.
I only have one computer and one 500GB auxiliary HDD to serve as a
clone for a 640 GB resident HDD.  It is too late to return the
auxiliary HDD.  The user data on the resident HDD is a mere tens of
GB's.  To get a larger auxiliary HDD, I'd have to move to 750 GB (640
GB seems rare, and doesn't provide much in the way of choice).  Most
of the 750 GB will be unused, and it will cost in the order of $240 in
my country.  I figure it's worthwhile figuring out how to clone to the
smaller HDD as long as I verify the clone.

I can boot up on the clone, but is there a way to compare the content
of the clone with the original?  I suspect not, because the moment I
start using the computer, the original starts to change.

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#2373

AndyHancock wrote
> Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote
>> Mike Tomlinson <m...@jasper.org.uk> wrote
>>> AndyHancock <andymhanc...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller

>>> You'll make things much easier and reduce the chances of an error
>>> causing data loss if you clone onto the same size, or larger HDD.

>> You can also clone to a larger 3.5" hdd first, reduce size there and
>> then clone to the target. But in principle cloning to same size or
>> larger is the only reasonable thing to do.

> I certainly agree...

I dont on that last. And decent cloner will both shrink and expand a partition its
cloning, no reason why only ever expanding is the only reasonable thing to do.

> however, I took into consideration the following.
> I only have one computer and one 500GB auxiliary HDD to serve
> as a clone for a 640 GB resident HDD.  It is too late to return the
> auxiliary HDD.  The user data on the resident HDD is a mere tens of
> GB's.  To get a larger auxiliary HDD, I'd have to move to 750 GB (640
> GB seems rare, and doesn't provide much in the way of choice).  Most
> of the 750 GB will be unused, and it will cost in the order of $240 in
> my country.  I figure it's worthwhile figuring out how to clone to the
> smaller HDD as long as I verify the clone.

You dont need to verify it with a decent cloner, if it boots fine and if it
does the restore ops fine, you can be confident that its cloned properly.

The main question mark isnt so much because of the size difference,
its more whether the cloner will end up with fangs in its bum because
the new drive is a hybrid hard drive/SSD.

> I can boot up on the clone, but is there a way to
> compare the content of the clone with the original?

Compare in what sense ?  You can obviously compare
the directory listings of the original and the clone, but
that doesnt prove anything about the file contents.

You cant do a binary compare if the sizes arent the same.

> I suspect not, because the moment I start using
> the computer, the original starts to change.

You can obviously boot a linux live CD and do the comparison that way. 

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#2379

On Jan 14, 12:41 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> AndyHancock wrote
>
> > Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote
> >> Mike Tomlinson <m...@jasper.org.uk> wrote
> >>> AndyHancock <andymhanc...@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>> It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller
> >>> You'll make things much easier and reduce the chances of an error
> >>> causing data loss if you clone onto the same size, or larger HDD.
> >> You can also clone to a larger 3.5" hdd first, reduce size there and
> >> then clone to the target. But in principle cloning to same size or
> >> larger is the only reasonable thing to do.
> > I certainly agree...
>
> I dont on that last. And decent cloner will both shrink and expand a partition its
> cloning, no reason why only ever expanding is the only reasonable thing to do.
>
> > however, I took into consideration the following.
> > I only have one computer and one 500GB auxiliary HDD to serve
> > as a clone for a 640 GB resident HDD.  It is too late to return the
> > auxiliary HDD.  The user data on the resident HDD is a mere tens of
> > GB's.  To get a larger auxiliary HDD, I'd have to move to 750 GB (640
> > GB seems rare, and doesn't provide much in the way of choice).  Most
> > of the 750 GB will be unused, and it will cost in the order of $240 in
> > my country.  I figure it's worthwhile figuring out how to clone to the
> > smaller HDD as long as I verify the clone.
>
> You dont need to verify it with a decent cloner, if it boots fine and if it
> does the restore ops fine, you can be confident that its cloned properly.
>
> The main question mark isnt so much because of the size difference,
> its more whether the cloner will end up with fangs in its bum because
> the new drive is a hybrid hard drive/SSD.
>
> > I can boot up on the clone, but is there a way to
> > compare the content of the clone with the original?
>
> Compare in what sense ?  You can obviously compare
> the directory listings of the original and the clone, but
> that doesnt prove anything about the file contents.
>
> You cant do a binary compare if the sizes arent the same.
>
> > I suspect not, because the moment I start using
> > the computer, the original starts to change.
>
> You can obviously boot a linux live CD and do the comparison that way.

Lord, I wasn't prepared to embark on yet another journey of ramping up
in new territory yet.  I haven't yet finished cloning all 4 partition
in my current problem.  Also, the laptop is still running Windows 7
when the cloning is being done, so all the files are being altered in
real time.  I had hoped that a kind of diff'ing utility (without
having to get smart about Linux CD's) might reveal minimal differences
that are easily to recognize as inconsequential.    I will try booting
off the clone once I've researched the safety measures against a
hazard that exist when both source & clone partitions are visible to
the machine during a reboot.

The restore ops won't work yet because they reside in partitions 3 &
4, which I haven't yet cloned.

By the way, how would you recognize fangs in the bum?

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#2382

AndyHancock wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> AndyHancock wrote
>>> Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote
>>>> Mike Tomlinson <m...@jasper.org.uk> wrote
>>>>> AndyHancock <andymhanc...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>>> It's not a blind copy of the whole HDD...the target HDD is smaller

>>>>> You'll make things much easier and reduce the chances of an error
>>>>> causing data loss if you clone onto the same size, or larger HDD.

>>>> You can also clone to a larger 3.5" hdd first, reduce size there
>>>> and then clone to the target. But in principle cloning to same
>>>> size or larger is the only reasonable thing to do.

>>> I certainly agree...

>> I dont on that last. And decent cloner will both shrink
>> and expand a partition its cloning, no reason why only
>> ever expanding is the only reasonable thing to do.

>>> however, I took into consideration the following.
>>> I only have one computer and one 500GB auxiliary HDD to serve
>>> as a clone for a 640 GB resident HDD. It is too late to return the
>>> auxiliary HDD. The user data on the resident HDD is a mere tens of
>>> GB's. To get a larger auxiliary HDD, I'd have to move to 750 GB (640
>>> GB seems rare, and doesn't provide much in the way of choice). Most
>>> of the 750 GB will be unused, and it will cost in the order of $240
>>> in my country. I figure it's worthwhile figuring out how to clone
>>> to the smaller HDD as long as I verify the clone.

>> You dont need to verify it with a decent cloner, if it boots fine and if it
>> does the restore ops fine, you can be confident that its cloned properly.

>> The main question mark isnt so much because of the size difference,
>> its more whether the cloner will end up with fangs in its bum because
>> the new drive is a hybrid hard drive/SSD.

>>> I can boot up on the clone, but is there a way to
>>> compare the content of the clone with the original?

>> Compare in what sense ? You can obviously compare
>> the directory listings of the original and the clone, but
>> that doesnt prove anything about the file contents.

>> You cant do a binary compare if the sizes arent the same.

>>> I suspect not, because the moment I start using
>>> the computer, the original starts to change.

>> You can obviously boot a linux live CD and do the comparison that way.

> Lord, I wasn't prepared to embark on yet another
> journey of ramping up in new territory yet.  I haven't
> yet finished cloning all 4 partition in my current problem.

Its not that bad when a basic compare and it booting fine on the new cloned
partition give you a good level of confidence that the clone worked fine.

If the clone didnt work properly, you likely wont be able to boot it.

> Also, the laptop is still running Windows 7 when the cloning
> is being done, so all the files are being altered in real time.

Yes, but if you are just running the cloner, not too much will have been changed.

> I had hoped that a kind of diff'ing utility (without having
> to get smart about Linux CD's) might reveal minimal
> differences that are easily to recognize as inconsequential.

I havent noticed any Win ute that will do that, but I dont bother to do that
sort of compare myself, I just see if it boots and everything works fine.

> I will try booting off the clone once I've researched the safety
> measures against a hazard that exist when both source &
> clone partitions are visible to the machine during a reboot.

All you have to do is physically remove the original
so the first boot of the clone cant see the original.

> The restore ops won't work yet because they
> reside in partitions 3 & 4, which I haven't yet cloned.

> By the way, how would you recognize fangs in the bum?

You can usually feel it and if you feel some pain there, check for bleeding.

Corse that can be a problem if you suffer from haemorrhoids.

Normally it wont boot the clone with the original physically removed from the system. 

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#2390

On Jan 15, 4:37 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> AndyHancock wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>>> The main question mark isnt so much because of the size
>>> difference, its more whether the cloner will end up with fangs in
>>> its bum because the new drive is a hybrid hard drive/SSD.
>>>
>>> <...snip...>
>>>
>>> You can obviously boot a linux live CD and do the comparison that
>>> way.
>>
>> Lord, I wasn't prepared to embark on yet another journey of ramping
>> up in new territory yet.  I haven't yet finished cloning all 4
>> partition in my current problem.
>
> Its not that bad when a basic compare and it booting fine on the new
> cloned partition give you a good level of confidence that the clone
> worked fine.  If the clone didnt work properly, you likely wont be
> able to boot it.
>
>> Also, the laptop is still running Windows 7 when the cloning is
>> being done, so all the files are being altered in real time.
>
> Yes, but if you are just running the cloner, not too much will have
> been changed.
>
>> I had hoped that a kind of diff'ing utility (without having to get
>> smart about Linux CD's) might reveal minimal differences that are
>> easily to recognize as inconsequential.
>
> I havent noticed any Win ute that will do that, but I dont bother to
> do that sort of compare myself, I just see if it boots and
> everything works fine.
>
>> I will try booting off the clone once I've researched the safety
>> measures against a hazard that exist when both source & clone
>> partitions are visible to the machine during a reboot.
>
> All you have to do is physically remove the original so the first
> boot of the clone cant see the original.
>
>> The restore ops won't work yet because they reside in partitions 3
>> & 4, which I haven't yet cloned.  By the way, how would you
>> recognize fangs in the bum?
>
> <...snip...>
>
> Normally it wont boot the clone with the original physically removed
> from the system.

OK, running into a few complications that are complicating the picture
a bit.

Toshiba Canada says that changing the HDD doesn't void the warranty,
but they are not allowed to provide it in writing.  Seems fishy.  So
I'm seeking a way to verify the booting off the clone without removing
the native HDD.  I can change the boot sequence so that it boots off
of eSATA-connected auxiliary drive (residing in an enclosure), but I'm
told that unless I actually remove the native drive, there is a risk
that the laptop will see both boot partitions and modify the registry
so that one or both HDDs can't be booted from.  I need to dig deeper
so that I'm not gambling with my HDDs.  Of course, if there is no
other solution, I guess the only course of action is to remove the
native HDD.  :(

Now, about Linux, I have zero experience with it, so what I did was
resort to my Cygwin install.  That requires that I mount the
partitions as posix paths (I'm assuming), but the partitions are not
letter drives.  Some people have suggested using fdisk or accessing
the partitions through /dev/sda (a folder which doesn't exist for
me).  Also, fdisk assumes that file systems are at /dev/sda.  So I
have a bit more of a journey determining if non-letter-drives
partitions can be mounted.  I likely depends on the file system, but
Toshiba doesn't actually provide any official info on their
partitioning.  There are vague educated guesses on forums.

All this to say that I may not try booting for some time, and I likely
won't be diff'ing for significantly longer.  Ah well.  I feel myself
getting smarter.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2391

AndyHancock wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> AndyHancock wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> The main question mark isnt so much because of the size
>>>> difference, its more whether the cloner will end up with fangs in
>>>> its bum because the new drive is a hybrid hard drive/SSD.

>>>> <...snip...>

>>>> You can obviously boot a linux live CD and do the comparison that way.

>>> Lord, I wasn't prepared to embark on yet another journey of ramping
>>> up in new territory yet.  I haven't yet finished cloning all 4 partition in
>>> my current problem.

>> Its not that bad when a basic compare and it booting fine on the new
>> cloned partition give you a good level of confidence that the clone
>> worked fine.  If the clone didnt work properly, you likely wont be
>> able to boot it.

>>> Also, the laptop is still running Windows 7 when the cloning is
>>> being done, so all the files are being altered in real time.

>> Yes, but if you are just running the cloner, not too much will have been changed.

>>> I had hoped that a kind of diff'ing utility (without having to get
>>> smart about Linux CD's) might reveal minimal differences that are
>>> easily to recognize as inconsequential.

>> I havent noticed any Win ute that will do that, but I dont bother to
>> do that sort of compare myself, I just see if it boots and
>> everything works fine.

>>> I will try booting off the clone once I've researched the safety
>>> measures against a hazard that exist when both source & clone
>>> partitions are visible to the machine during a reboot.

>> All you have to do is physically remove the original so the first
>> boot of the clone cant see the original.

>>> The restore ops won't work yet because they reside in partitions 3
>>> & 4, which I haven't yet cloned.  By the way, how would you
>>> recognize fangs in the bum?

>> <...snip...>

>> Normally it wont boot the clone with the original physically removed from the system.

> OK, running into a few complications that are complicating the picture a bit.

> Toshiba Canada says that changing the HDD doesn't void the warranty,

Yes, thats the legal situation.

> but they are not allowed to provide it in writing.  Seems fishy.

Nar, just some fool who doesnt allow the minions to put stuff like that in writing.

> So I'm seeking a way to verify the booting off the clone without removing the native HDD.

Thats very undesirable indeed with Win.

> I can change the boot sequence so that it boots off of
> eSATA-connected auxiliary drive (residing in an enclosure),
> but I'm told that unless I actually remove the native drive, there
> is a risk that the laptop will see both boot partitions and modify
> the registry so that one or both HDDs can't be booted from.

And that is correct. In fact its not only a risk its a certainty.

> I need to dig deeper so that I'm not gambling with my HDDs.

You arent gambling if you are careful about removing the original drive.

> Of course, if there is no other solution, I guess the
> only course of action is to remove the native HDD.  :(

Yes, that is your only option and legally unless you do something
really stupid mechanically, that will not void your warranty and they
wont even be able to work out that you have removed it in the very
unlikely situation where it does die coincidentally with you removing it.

> Now, about Linux, I have zero experience with it,

Its just another flavor of unix.

> so what I did was resort to my Cygwin install.  That requires that I
> mount the partitions as posix paths (I'm assuming), but the partitions
> are not letter drives.  Some people have suggested using fdisk or
> accessing the partitions through /dev/sda (a folder which doesn't
> exist for me).  Also, fdisk assumes that file systems are at /dev/sda.
> So I have a bit more of a journey determining if non-letter-drives
> partitions can be mounted.  I likely depends on the file system, but
> Toshiba doesn't actually provide any official info on their partitioning.
> There are vague educated guesses on forums.

I wouldnt bother with comparing the parttions myself, I would
just see if you can boot with the original drive physically removed.

The worst that can happen is that you find that you cant and you can just
put the original drive back in the laptop again and carry on regardless.

> All this to say that I may not try booting for some time, and I likely won't
> be diff'ing for significantly longer.  Ah well.  I feel myself getting smarter.

That usually results in tears before bedtime when it turns out to have been an illusion. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2401

On Jan 16, 4:14 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> AndyHancock wrote
>> OK, running into a few complications that are complicating the
>> picture a bit.  Toshiba Canada says that changing the HDD doesn't
>> void the warranty,
>
> Yes, thats the legal situation.
>
>> but they are not allowed to provide it in writing.  Seems fishy.
>
> Nar, just some fool who doesnt allow the minions to put stuff like
> that in writing.

That's a lot of minions.  It seems to be a company wide policy.

>> So I'm seeking a way to verify the booting off the clone without
>> removing the native HDD.
>
> Thats very undesirable indeed with Win.
>
>> I can change the boot sequence so that it boots off of
>> eSATA-connected auxiliary drive (residing in an enclosure), but I'm
>> told that unless I actually remove the native drive, there is a
>> risk that the laptop will see both boot partitions and modify the
>> registry so that one or both HDDs can't be booted from.
>
> And that is correct. In fact its not only a risk its a certainty.

Now that's a very valuable tidbit.  Thanks!

>> I need to dig deeper so that I'm not gambling with my HDDs.
>
> You arent gambling if you are careful about removing the original
> drive.
>
>> Of course, if there is no other solution, I guess the only course
>> of action is to remove the native HDD.  :(
>
> Yes, that is your only option and legally unless you do something
> really stupid mechanically, that will not void your warranty and
> they wont even be able to work out that you have removed it in the
> very unlikely situation where it does die coincidentally with you
> removing it.

I'll try not to let it get to that.

>> Now, about Linux, I have zero experience with it,
>
> Its just another flavor of unix.

I know...I meant all the klag about versions, install, packages,
mapping different file systems and security models, etc.  Once I get
to a bash command line, I'm happy.  My experience with Cygwin reveals
that a lot has to go on behind the dashboard to give the illusion of
unix's when dealing with Windows and its file system.  The user isn't
always insulated from those things.

>> so what I did was resort to my Cygwin install.  That requires that
>> I mount the partitions as posix paths (I'm assuming), but the
>> partitions are not letter drives.  Some people have suggested using
>> fdisk or accessing the partitions through /dev/sda (a folder which
>> doesn't exist for me).  Also, fdisk assumes that file systems are
>> at /dev/sda.  So I have a bit more of a journey determining if
>> non-letter-drives partitions can be mounted.  I likely depends on
>> the file system, but Toshiba doesn't actually provide any official
>> info on their partitioning.  There are vague educated guesses on
>> forums.
>
> I wouldnt bother with comparing the parttions myself, I would just
> see if you can boot with the original drive physically removed.
>
> The worst that can happen is that you find that you cant and you can
> just put the original drive back in the laptop again and carry on
> regardless.

You know, with all the unknowns, I have considered that more than
once.  If only the Toshiba partitions were like normal, with one SRP
and one C-drive.  However, they have 2 additional partitions for
recovery purposes.  I'm now all too clear on how they break down, but
I believe that the purposes covered of those additional partitions
are: (1) to make the recovery discs, and (2) to enable restoration to
factory state in the absence of recovery discs ("HDD recovery").

I would like to see if I can preserve all the partitions and their
functionality, but it's not clear how to check additional partitions.
Just booting probably won't do it, so the measures I can take to check
the clone are to: (1) compare the content with the original, (2) go
through the motions of making recovery discs, (3) do HDD recovery, and
(4) restore to factory settings using the recovery discs made in #2.
I don't know if I have the will power to go through all of these
measures, so I'm trying my luck with #1.

>> All this to say that I may not try booting for some time, and I
>> likely won't be diff'ing for significantly longer.  Ah well.  I
>> feel myself getting smarter.
>
> That usually results in tears before bedtime when it turns out to
> have been an illusion.

The very fact that I'm trying to do this may actually show that I'm
getting dumber.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2403

AndyHancock wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> AndyHancock wrote

>>> OK, running into a few complications that are complicating the picture a bit.
>>> Toshiba Canada says that changing the HDD doesn't void the warranty,

>> Yes, thats the legal situation.

>>> but they are not allowed to provide it in writing.  Seems fishy.

>> Nar, just some fool who doesnt allow the minions to put stuff like that in writing.

> That's a lot of minions.

Not really. There arent that many involved directly with the public.

> It seems to be a company wide policy.

Sure, but obviously set by some particular fool.

>>> So I'm seeking a way to verify the booting off
>>> the clone without removing the native HDD.

>> Thats very undesirable indeed with Win.

>>> I can change the boot sequence so that it boots off of
>>> eSATA-connected auxiliary drive (residing in an enclosure), but I'm
>>> told that unless I actually remove the native drive, there is a
>>> risk that the laptop will see both boot partitions and modify the
>>> registry so that one or both HDDs can't be booted from.

>> And that is correct. In fact its not only a risk its a certainty.

> Now that's a very valuable tidbit.  Thanks!

OK.

>>> I need to dig deeper so that I'm not gambling with my HDDs.

>> You arent gambling if you are careful about removing the original drive.

>>> Of course, if there is no other solution, I guess the only course
>>> of action is to remove the native HDD.  :(

>> Yes, that is your only option and legally unless you do something
>> really stupid mechanically, that will not void your warranty and they
>> wont even be able to work out that you have removed it in the very
>> unlikely situation where it does die coincidentally with you removing it.

> I'll try not to let it get to that.

You dont have any control over that.

Its very unllikely tho.

>>> Now, about Linux, I have zero experience with it,

>> Its just another flavor of unix.

> I know...I meant all the klag about versions, install, packages,
> mapping different file systems and security models, etc.  Once
> I get to a bash command line, I'm happy.  My experience with
> Cygwin reveals that a lot has to go on behind the dashboard to
> give the illusion of unix's when dealing with Windows and its file
> system.  The user isn't always insulated from those things.

Yep, that isnt even possible.

>>> so what I did was resort to my Cygwin install.  That requires that
>>> I mount the partitions as posix paths (I'm assuming), but the
>>> partitions are not letter drives.  Some people have suggested using
>>> fdisk or accessing the partitions through /dev/sda (a folder which
>>> doesn't exist for me).  Also, fdisk assumes that file systems are
>>> at /dev/sda.  So I have a bit more of a journey determining if
>>> non-letter-drives partitions can be mounted.  I likely depends on
>>> the file system, but Toshiba doesn't actually provide any official info
>>> on their partitioning.  There are vague educated guesses on forums.

>> I wouldnt bother with comparing the parttions myself, I would just
>> see if you can boot with the original drive physically removed.

>> The worst that can happen is that you find that you cant and you can just
>> put the original drive back in the laptop again and carry on regardless.

> You know, with all the unknowns, I have considered that more than once.
> If only the Toshiba partitions were like normal, with one SRP and one C-drive.
> However, they have 2 additional partitions for recovery purposes.  I'm now all
> too clear on how they break down, but I believe that the purposes covered of
> those additional partitions are: (1) to make the recovery discs, and (2) to enable
> restoration to factory state in the absence of recovery discs ("HDD recovery").

> I would like to see if I can preserve all the partitions and their
> functionality, but it's not clear how to check additional partitions.

A binary compare of the partitions should do that and you can
check if the recovery operations work with the cloned drive too.

> Just booting probably won't do it,

Yes.

> so the measures I can take to check the clone are to: (1) compare the
> content with the original, (2) go through the motions of making recovery
> discs, (3) do HDD recovery, and (4) restore to factory settings using the
> recovery discs made in #2.

Yep.

> I don't know if I have the will power to go through all
> of these measures, so I'm trying my luck with #1.

That wont tell you if the recovery ops will work.

There isnt that much involved with doing 2-4 with a clone of the original.

>>> All this to say that I may not try booting for some time,
>>> and I likely won't be diff'ing for significantly longer.
>>> Ah well.  I feel myself getting smarter.

>> That usually results in tears before bedtime when it turns out to have been an illusion.

> The very fact that I'm trying to do this may actually show that I'm getting dumber.

Hard to say when we dont know how you operated previously. 

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#2639

On Jan 16, 4:14 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> AndyHancock wrote
>> I can change the boot sequence so that it boots off of
>> eSATA-connected auxiliary drive (residing in an enclosure),
>> but I'm told that unless I actually remove the native drive, there
>> is a risk that the laptop will see both boot partitions and modify
>> the registry so that one or both HDDs can't be booted from.
>
> And that is correct. In fact its not only a risk its a certainty.
>
>> I need to dig deeper so that I'm not gambling with my HDDs.
>
> You arent gambling if you are careful about removing the original drive.

Hi, Rod,

Apparently, if you've booted off of the clone drive once, you no
longer run the risk of making both drives unbootable if you happen to
have both drives connected during boot time.  Is this something you're
familiar with?

If so, would you know if booting off the clone when it is in the eSATA
enclosure qualifies as having booted once?

What about if you boot once when the clone is in the eSATA enclosure,
then boot a 2nd time when it is in the laptop...during that 2nd time,
would the clone be already out of the danger zone?  If so, it means
that I can have another bootable HDD in the eSATA enclosure (for
example, the source HDD) during bootup.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2642

AndyHancock wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> AndyHancock wrote

>>> I can change the boot sequence so that it boots off of
>>> eSATA-connected auxiliary drive (residing in an enclosure),
>>> but I'm told that unless I actually remove the native drive, there
>>> is a risk that the laptop will see both boot partitions and modify
>>> the registry so that one or both HDDs can't be booted from.

>> And that is correct. In fact its not only a risk its a certainty.

>>> I need to dig deeper so that I'm not gambling with my HDDs.

>> You arent gambling if you are careful about removing the original drive.

> Hi, Rod,

> Apparently, if you've booted off of the clone drive once,
> you no longer run the risk of making both drives unbootable
> if you happen to have both drives connected during boot time.

Yes, that is correct.

> Is this something you're familiar with?

Yes, I have said that in here myself in the past.

> If so, would you know if booting off the clone when it is
> in the eSATA enclosure qualifies as having booted once?

Yes it does.

> What about if you boot once when the clone is in the eSATA
> enclosure, then boot a 2nd time when it is in the laptop...during
> that 2nd time, would the clone be already out of the danger zone?

Yes it is.

> If so, it means that I can have another bootable HDD in the
> eSATA enclosure (for example, the source HDD) during bootup.

Not during the first boot of the clone after the clone has been created. 

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