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Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ]

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From Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc>
Newsgroups comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.software-eng, comp.lang.c
Subject Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ]
Message-ID <20210709180643.00004d28@reddwarf.jmc> (permalink)
References <s7ednaA-LdLVrn79nZ2dnUU7-XvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <ir6dnd4AKr3FvHv9nZ2dnUU7-IvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <KvrFI.400$7k7.52@fx11.iad> <wOqdnXQT4cNBznv9nZ2dnUU7-W3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <7NsFI.1031$W56.496@fx08.iad> <2MydnZG_WOGNwHv9nZ2dnUU7-aPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <GFtFI.1101$tL2.292@fx43.iad> <YJWdnQE74v818Xv9nZ2dnUU7-THNnZ2d@giganews.com> <yTAFI.13018$Vv6.1050@fx45.iad> <QtKdnVFo6ujma3v9nZ2dnUU7-a2dnZ2d@giganews.com> <b6d70511-28db-4e7a-9a53-95967e566ee0n@googlegroups.com> <Iu2dnYdqd4-FYnv9nZ2dnUU7-IvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <4a4a9879-0636-428b-bdcd-792c8a724ec9n@googlegroups.com> <fI2dnQ2d-MDPlHr9nZ2dnUU7-aHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl7c4wnv.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XKudnV8wlNA1u3r9nZ2dnUU7-N_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87v95k2zaw.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <YuKdnV6NAJXPPHr9nZ2dnUU7-W3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0m02r5r.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <aPmdnQOOhJ88L3r9nZ2dnUU7-L-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tul3207x.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <doWdnZPz-M_By3X9nZ2dnUU7-R3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
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Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 08:59:51 -0500
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> [Halt Deciding Axiom] When the pure simulation of the machine 
> description ⟨P⟩ of a machine P on its input I never halts we know
> that P(I) never halts.
> 
> No we cannot. In order to remove the pathological feedback loop such 
> that P does the opposite of whatever H decides H simply acts as a
> pure simulator of P thus having no effect what-so-ever on the
> behavior of P until after its halt status decision has been made.

Except your decider can only handle trivial uninteresting cases: if you
wish to make progress on this then prove your decider works with a
non-trivial case which includes branching logic predicated on arbitrary
program input that is unknown a priori to the simulation starting; but
before you even do that prove your decider works with a non-trivial
case with branching logic predicated on arbitrary program input that
*is* known a priori.

I also note that you repeatedly refuse to address my point regarding how
x86 mov instructions can read/write from/to memory mapped I/O
rather than RAM so the result of the mov instruction cannot be known a
priori. The halting program concerns computing devices and a computing
device which cannot do I/O is next to useless, much like your decider
(until you actually prove otherwise which I have a feeling is never
going to happen as you appear to be stuck in a loop).

/Flibble

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How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 11:28 -0500
  Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 14:30 -0500
  Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 16:40 -0500
    Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 19:04 -0500
      Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 20:01 -0500
        Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 21:37 -0500
      Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 22:06 -0500
        Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 10:59 -0500
        Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (correct halt deciding criterion measure) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 11:33 -0500
          Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V2) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 21:00 -0500
            Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 11:24 -0500
              Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 13:10 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 14:51 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 20:24 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 21:04 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 07:46 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ independent v dependent variables ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 22:54 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 11:24 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 20:07 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 21:21 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 21:36 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 08:59 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-09 18:06 +0100
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 12:47 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-09 20:16 +0100
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 14:24 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-09 22:08 +0100
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 16:13 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 10:00 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-10 16:15 +0100
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 10:21 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-10 16:25 +0100
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 11:08 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ]( You and I ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 11:42 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-07-10 15:19 -0700
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2021-07-11 00:29 +0000
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ strachey example ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 19:57 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 17:29 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 18:31 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 19:33 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 20:00 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ suspended not halted ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-11 09:14 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-11 09:30 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ]( Flibble agrees ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-11 14:47 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-12 17:18 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 08:41 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 09:42 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 10:02 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 15:52 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 16:47 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 22:12 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 09:17 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 19:42 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 19:52 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 22:03 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 21:48 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ](and Flibble) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 10:11 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 10:33 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 10:43 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 17:21 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 20:11 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 20:52 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 21:14 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-13 21:42 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 15:53 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-14 10:07 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 22:18 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 23:01 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 23:45 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 09:25 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ type mismatch error ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 10:32 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V4) [ type mismatch error ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-10 11:19 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 20:31 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 21:07 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-08 08:29 -0500
                Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-09 09:02 -0500
    Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 23:15 -0500
      Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 10:26 -0500
      Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-06 21:18 +0100
        Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-06 15:41 -0500
          Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (Ben's double-talk does not work) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-06 23:18 +0100
    Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 09:47 -0500
      Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 20:15 -0500
  Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 14:18 +0200
    Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 13:43 -0500
      Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-07 19:01 +0000
        Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? (V3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 14:39 -0500
    Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 17:05 -0500
      Re: How do we know that H(P,P)==0 is correct? [ proof ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-07 18:04 -0500

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