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Very new programmer

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  Very new programmer Ian German <ianpgerman@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 21:06 -0300
    Re: Very new programmer Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-19 02:11 +0100
      Re: Very new programmer Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 21:11 -0400
    Re: Very new programmer Pascal J. Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2012-10-19 12:48 +0000
      Re: Very new programmer Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-19 16:44 +0100
        Re: Very new programmer Pascal J. Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2012-10-19 16:37 +0000
          Re: Very new programmer Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-19 19:04 +0100
            Re: Very new programmer pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-10-19 14:38 -0400
            Re: Very new programmer Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-10-19 21:56 +0100
            Re: Very new programmer Pascal J. Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2012-10-23 13:20 +0000
              Re: Very new programmer "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-23 18:49 +0100
              Re: Very new programmer Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-23 19:41 +0100
    Re: Very new programmer Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-10-19 12:12 -0700
    Re: Very new programmer Markus Freund <markus.freund@s2005.tu-chemnitz.de> - 2012-10-19 23:20 +0200
    Re: Very new programmer "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2012-10-19 17:12 -0500

#2353 — Very new programmer

Hello.

I am interested in programming but I don't know where to start. Can 
anybody give me some advice? I apologize in advance for anything I might 
be doing wrong, I am also new to Usenet.

Kind regards

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#2354

Ian German wrote:

> I am interested in programming but I don't know where to start. Can
> anybody give me some advice? I apologize in advance for anything I might
> be doing wrong, I am also new to Usenet.

Hi,

Sure, fire away.  

So, what kind of programs do you wish to write?


Rui Maciel

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#2355

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 02:11:17AM +0100, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Ian German wrote:
> 
> > I am interested in programming but I don't know where to start. Can
> > anybody give me some advice? I apologize in advance for anything I might
> > be doing wrong, I am also new to Usenet.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Sure, fire away.  
> 
> So, what kind of programs do you wish to write?

Good ones, I hope.


Regards,

Uncle Steve

-- 
My people and I have come to an agreement that satisfies us both.
They are to say what they please, and I am to do what I please.
        - Frederick the Great, c. 1770

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#2357

Ian German <ianpgerman@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello.
> 
> I am interested in programming but I don't know where to start. Can 
> anybody give me some advice? I apologize in advance for anything I might 
> be doing wrong, I am also new to Usenet.
> 
> Kind regards

My advice would be to read those two books:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

Later you can learn some specific programming languages, depending on the
kind of programs you want to write.
-- 
__Pascal J. Bourguignon__

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#2359

Pascal J.  Bourguignon wrote:

> My advice would be to read those two books:
> 
> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
> 
> Later you can learn some specific programming languages, depending on the
> kind of programs you want to write.

Are you really sure that forcing lisp, or one of its dialects, on a newbie, 
without even knowing what he wants to do with, is such a good idea?


Rui Maciel

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#2360

Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pascal J.  Bourguignon wrote:
> 
>> My advice would be to read those two books:
>> 
>> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
>> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
>> 
>> Later you can learn some specific programming languages, depending on the
>> kind of programs you want to write.
> 
> Are you really sure that forcing lisp, or one of its dialects, on a newbie, 
> without even knowing what he wants to do with, is such a good idea?
> 
> 
> Rui Maciel

Yes, I am sure.

Lisp (or scheme) is like Esperanto.  Once you have learned it, you can
learn all the other programming languages very easily.  That is because
lisp concentrates on the concepts, not on the syntax of programming
languages.

Scheme is often taught to programmer beginners in universities.  (Granted,
in some univerity, not anymore to non programmer beginners.  For people who
will become electrical engineers, or biologocists, it is deemed a better
investment to teach them python.  But that very same university still
teaches sicp to CS beginners!)


-- 
__Pascal J. Bourguignon__

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#2362

Pascal J.  Bourguignon wrote:

> Lisp (or scheme) is like Esperanto.  Once you have learned it, you can
> learn all the other programming languages very easily. 

Just like C, C++, Java, etc...


> Scheme is often taught to programmer beginners in universities.

Just like C, C++, Java, etc...


And you forgot to mention that Lisp dialects are rarely used to develop 
professional applications, and demand for lisp programmers is virtually 
inexistent.  For example, in monster.com, right now there is only a single 
add for a lisp programmer, while there are thousands of ads asking for java 
or C++ programmers.


Rui Maciel

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#2363

Rui Maciel wrote:
> 
> Pascal J.  Bourguignon wrote:
> 
> > Lisp (or scheme) is like Esperanto.  

> And you forgot to mention that Lisp dialects
> are rarely used to develop professional applications,
> and demand for lisp programmers is virtually inexistent.

I think that that was implied 
by the comparison of Lisp to Esperanto.

-- 
pete

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#2365

Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:

> Pascal J.  Bourguignon wrote:
>
>> Lisp (or scheme) is like Esperanto.  Once you have learned it, you can
>> learn all the other programming languages very easily. 
>
> Just like C, C++, Java, etc...

Well, yes.  You can also learn all programming languages after learning
to play tennis!  But Pascal's point is about the degree to which
learning X helps with learning P, Q and R.  The claim is that knowing C
does not help in learning, say, ocaml as much as having learnt Lisp.

I don't agree with the Esperanto analogy because I don't think Esperanto
embraces all the different ways in which ideas can be expressed in other
languages which is, I think, the point Pascal is making.  When you learn
C first, you don't just learn a programming language, you learn one way
of thinking about programming and it therefore takes more effort to
absorb others.  Of course the flip side is that it does take more time
to fully learn Lisp, but the almost total lack of syntax is a great help
there.

>> Scheme is often taught to programmer beginners in universities.
>
> Just like C, C++, Java, etc...
>
>
> And you forgot to mention that Lisp dialects are rarely used to develop 
> professional applications, and demand for lisp programmers is virtually 
> inexistent.  For example, in monster.com, right now there is only a single 
> add for a lisp programmer, while there are thousands of ads asking for java 
> or C++ programmers.

That's not obviously relevant.  It's possible that learning Lisp makes
people better programmers in other languages that very much in demand.
I don't know for sure if this is true (thought I think the argument has
some merit) but similar claims are made for other fields.  For example,
far more people are taught mathematics than are ever going to use it in
the job market.

-- 
Ben.

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#2378

Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pascal J.  Bourguignon wrote:
> 
>> Lisp (or scheme) is like Esperanto.  Once you have learned it, you can
>> learn all the other programming languages very easily. 
> 
> Just like C, C++, Java, etc...
> 
> 

wrong.


>> Scheme is often taught to programmer beginners in universities.
> 
> Just like C, C++, Java, etc...
> 

my argument is that it is not done for the best.


> 
> And you forgot to mention that Lisp dialects are rarely used to develop 
> professional applications, and demand for lisp programmers is virtually 
> inexistent.  

but important programs are written in lisp.  eg air ticket finding is
written in lisp at google.

For example, in monster.com, right now there is only a single 
> add for a lisp programmer, while there are thousands of ads asking for java 
> or C++ programmers.

the question was to learn programming, not to land a job.


the reason is because problems are solved in lisp, so you dont need an army
to patch them for ever after.

-- 
__Pascal J. Bourguignon__

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#2379

"Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> wrote in message 
news:1870835287372366360.485255pjb-informatimago.com@news.individual.net...
> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> wrote:

> For example, in monster.com, right now there is only a single
>> add for a lisp programmer, while there are thousands of ads asking for 
>> java
>> or C++ programmers.
>
> the question was to learn programming, not to land a job.

But you might want to ask why the language isn't so popular.

>
> the reason is because problems are solved in lisp, so you dont need an 
> army
> to patch them for ever after.

Lisp has a few problems of it's own:

o It doesn't really have a syntax, which can add useful visual structure and 
variety (instead it is written in what looks like intermediate code output 
of a compiler)

o It's quite complex (1000 pages just to describe the (CL) language)

o It's full of ideas which are difficult or impossible to port to another 
language (for example, I quite *like* to separate code and data!)

o And those same features can be used to write an impossible-to-understand 
program more readily than in a conventional language

-- 
Bartc 

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#2380

Pascal J.  Bourguignon wrote:

> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Pascal J.  Bourguignon wrote:
>> 
>>> Lisp (or scheme) is like Esperanto.  Once you have learned it, you can
>>> learn all the other programming languages very easily.
>> 
>> Just like C, C++, Java, etc...
>> 
>> 
> 
> wrong.

The best thing about baseless assertions is that you are wrong.


>>> Scheme is often taught to programmer beginners in universities.
>> 
>> Just like C, C++, Java, etc...
>> 
> 
> my argument is that it is not done for the best.

I don't understand what you tried to say.  Could you please elaborate on 
that?


>> And you forgot to mention that Lisp dialects are rarely used to develop
>> professional applications, and demand for lisp programmers is virtually
>> inexistent.
> 
> but important programs are written in lisp.  eg air ticket finding is
> written in lisp at google.

That is irrelevant.  If someone writes an "important program" in brainfuck 
it doesn't mean the language is suddenly appropriate as an introductory 
language with real world practical use.


> For example, in monster.com, right now there is only a single
>> add for a lisp programmer, while there are thousands of ads asking for
>> java or C++ programmers.
> 
> the question was to learn programming, not to land a job.

What you failed to understand is that you can have both, and it doesn't make 
any sense to halve your options just because some bloke on usenet had a 
strong opinion on the use of a niche language.


> the reason is because problems are solved in lisp, so you dont need an
> army to patch them for ever after.

Irrelevant.  You can solve problems with any given language.


Rui Maciel

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#2364

On 10/18/2012 5:06 PM, Ian German wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> I am interested in programming but I don't know where to start. Can
> anybody give me some advice? I apologize in advance for anything I might
> be doing wrong, I am also new to Usenet.

I suggest picking some field that interests you, and looking at
programming relevant to that field. That will narrow things down a bit,
and maybe help you get started.

After you have some idea what sort of programming you want to do, pick a
programming language to learn. It should be one that is generally used
in the field you have chosen. You can find out a lot about that by
looking at job ads.

Patricia

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#2366

Hi,

maybe you just get Code::Blocks http://www.codeblocks.org/ and go 
through a tutorial like http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/ or 
http://www.cprogramming.com/

best
markus


Am 19.10.2012 02:06, schrieb Ian German:
>
> Hello.
>
> I am interested in programming but I don't know where to start. Can
> anybody give me some advice? I apologize in advance for anything I might
> be doing wrong, I am also new to Usenet.
>
> Kind regards
>

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#2368

"Ian German" <ianpgerman@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:MPG.2aea8db2e30bc1cc989680@nntp.aioe.org...
>
> Hello.
>
> I am interested in programming but I don't know where to start. Can
> anybody give me some advice? I apologize in advance for anything I might
> be doing wrong, I am also new to Usenet.
>

I'll tell you how *I* got started.  I learned old-style FORTRAN and then 
learned assembly language.  Today, you can learn old-style BASIC in some 
places.  This gives you the concepts of loops, conditional execution (if 
statements), counting loops (FOR loops), and variables for storage... 
storing data values in memory.  Assembly language forces  you to learn about 
the *hardware* underneath and see how the computer adds two numbers (what 
instructions are used) and how binary and two's complement works.  Arrays 
and their implementation have been important in many of the older 
programming languages.

After you get the fundamental concepts down, then you can apply what you've 
learned to acquiring other langauges like LISP or C.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

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