Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers?

From	FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c, comp.lang.clipper, comp.lang.ada, comp.programming, alt.comp.freeware, alt.conspiracy
Subject	Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers?
Date	2016-12-12 10:00 -0500
Organization	Peripheral Visions
Message-ID	<o2me2j$he4$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	<o2jiap$oo0$1@dont-email.me> <eb57akFi340U1@mid.individual.net> <o2jt4c$732$1@dont-email.me> <cjlr4cp1gg8ve58nl0pngk4dj2rtrvrff0@4ax.com> <o2mb3r$c16$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 6 groups.

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Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote on 12/12/2016 :
> On 12/12/2016 6:42 AM, K Wills (Shill #3) wrote:
>>>
>>> Ha ha ha... who generated content for defined "validate prng"?
>>> Why should we trust it, Your Honor? Expert??? ha ha ha ... :)
>>
>> Make your own, if you don't trust what others have made
>> available.
>
>
>
>> With your paranoia, why do you even use computers?
>
> If someone was extremely paranoia, he/she/it would NOT trust anything sensed. 
> Basically, he/she/it was dead like a ghost.
>
> But I can still look at the Sun, the Moon and the stars. :)

RNG is not the same as PRNG and PRNG is not the same as CSPRNG. There 
are cryptographic 'distinguishers' which can help to distinguish 
between randomness and a covered plaintext, but you would have to trust 
that it works as advertised.

Basically, you have to trust somebody. Whether the random source is 
thermal noise or minute differences in the timing of somewhat regular 
natural events you might need a physicist to determine that no innate 
bias exists.

Then you probably need a mathematician to check out the math involved 
in converting and using that source's output to pick from a set of 
numbers. There is no such thing as a random number, only numbers 
selected from a set of numbers by a random process, that is 'a randomly 
chosen' number.

Then you need a coder/programmer to check out the particular 
implementation of that mathematical process to ensure that no bias or 
other kind of error is introduced by the implementation process itself.

If you are that kind of polymath, then maybe you can do this all by 
yourself, but that is very unlikely. Can you trust yourself to do this 
kind of evaluation, even if you are an expert in all of these 
disciplines? You might miss something, nobody's perfect, you may need a 
team -- which again means trusting someone.

Thread

Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 20:56 +0800
  Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-12-11 08:48 -0600
    Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 00:00 +0800
      Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "K Wills (Shill #3)" <compuelf@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 16:42 -0600
        Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 22:11 +0800
          Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> - 2016-12-12 10:00 -0500
            Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 23:03 +0800
              Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-12-12 07:08 -0800
              Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> - 2016-12-12 10:17 -0500
                Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 23:30 +0800
                Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> - 2016-12-12 10:57 -0500
        Re: The real and fair DIce of Solomon? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 22:13 +0800
  Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 00:05 +0800
  Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 00:46 +0800
    Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-12-12 01:44 +0100
  Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? bartekltg <bartekltg@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 02:02 +0100
    Re: Dice: mechanical vs electrical "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 22:51 +0800
      Re: Dice: mechanical vs electrical bartekltg <bartekltg@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 20:17 +0100
  Re: Fake randomness is still random? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 22:15 +0800
    Re: Fake randomness is still random? Johan Nel <johan.nel@xsinet.co.za> - 2016-12-12 16:46 +0200
      Re: Fake randomness is still random? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 22:49 +0800
        Re: Fake randomness is still random? Adam Jensen <hanzer@riseup.net> - 2016-12-12 10:35 -0500
          Re: Fake randomness is still random? Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-12-12 07:56 -0800
    Re: Fake randomness is still random? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-12-12 16:41 +0000
      Re: Fake randomness is still random? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 17:45 +0100
      Re: Fake randomness is still random? root <NoEMail@home.org> - 2016-12-12 16:51 +0000
        Re: Fake randomness is still random? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 18:10 +0100
          Re: Randomness and Taro "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 02:28 +0800
        Re: From randomness to astrology "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 02:28 +0800
  Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2016-12-13 14:35 -0500
    Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-12-13 12:38 -0700
      Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2016-12-14 14:45 -0500
    Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 21:02 +0000
    Re: Fake random numbers? Bad programmers? Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> - 2016-12-15 22:08 +0100

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