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Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C

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  Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Amine Moulay Ramdane <aminer68@gmail.com> - 2022-02-28 08:43 -0800
    Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-02-28 18:44 +0100
      Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-02-28 19:26 -0600
        Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C rthiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> - 2022-02-28 20:29 -0500
          Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-02-28 20:23 -0600
            Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-03-01 11:34 +0000
            Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-01 14:31 +0100
              Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-03-01 17:25 +0100
                Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-01 18:13 +0100
                  Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-03-01 19:42 +0100
                    Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-01 19:56 +0100
                    Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-03 21:41 +0000
            Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-01 15:14 +0000
        Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-03-01 01:37 +0000
        Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-01 05:11 +0000
        Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-01 08:31 +0100
      Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-03-01 22:45 -0600
        Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-02 05:46 +0100
          Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-03-02 13:47 +0000
            Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C rthiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> - 2022-03-02 13:06 -0500
              Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-03-02 19:19 +0000
                Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-03-02 19:32 -0600
                  Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2022-03-03 14:56 +1100
                  Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-03 14:02 +0100
                Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-03-03 15:09 +0100
                  Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-03 15:14 +0100
            Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-02 19:17 +0100
          Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-02 14:42 +0000
            Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-02 19:18 +0100
              Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-02 18:33 +0000
                Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-02 19:39 +0100
                  Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-03-02 11:05 -0800
      Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-03-03 12:25 -0800
        Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-03 21:37 +0100
          Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-03-03 12:59 -0800
            Re: Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-03-04 11:35 +0100

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#7428 — Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C

Hello,


Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C

The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.

Read more here:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y


Thank you,
Amine Moulay Ramdane.

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#7431

Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
> 
> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.
> 
> Read more here:
> 
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> Amine Moulay Ramdane.

C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.

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#7439

On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>
>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, 
>> Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.
>>
>> Read more here:
>>
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
> 
> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.

Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there than 
anything else.  Just about every real time system is running C.  Linux 
is totally written in C code.  All engine management systems are running 
C.  Etc, etc, etc.

Lynn

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#7440

On 2/28/22 20:26, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>>
>>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, 
>>> Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.
>>>
>>> Read more here:
>>>
>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
>>
>> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.
> 
> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there than 
> anything else.  Just about every real time system is running C.  Linux 
> is totally written in C code.  All engine management systems are running 
> C.  Etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Lynn

How does the number of lines of C running compare to the number of lines 
of Cobol running?

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#7443

On 2/28/2022 7:29 PM, rthiebaud wrote:
> On 2/28/22 20:26, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>>>
>>>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, 
>>>> Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.
>>>>
>>>> Read more here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
>>>
>>> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.
>>
>> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there than 
>> anything else.  Just about every real time system is running C.  Linux 
>> is totally written in C code.  All engine management systems are 
>> running C.  Etc, etc, etc.
>>
>> Lynn
> 
> How does the number of lines of C running compare to the number of lines 
> of Cobol running?

Not even close, C big time the winner.

Every single vehicle running in the USA has several cpus running 20 
million to 30 million lines of C code.

Every single Android cell phone has a Linux operating system written in 
C.  Every single Apple cell phone has an iOS operating system written in C.

All Microsoft operating systems are written in C.  All Apple PC 
operating systems are written in C.  Linux is written in C.  Unix is 
written in C.  Etc, etc, etc.

Lynn

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#7447

On 01/03/2022 02:23, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 2/28/2022 7:29 PM, rthiebaud wrote:
>> On 2/28/22 20:26, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>>> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>>>>
>>>>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. 
>>>>> Now, Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 
>>>>> standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read more here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
>>>>
>>>> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.
>>>
>>> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there than 
>>> anything else.  Just about every real time system is running C.  
>>> Linux is totally written in C code.  All engine management systems 
>>> are running C.  Etc, etc, etc.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> How does the number of lines of C running compare to the number of 
>> lines of Cobol running?
> 
> Not even close, C big time the winner.
> 
> Every single vehicle running in the USA has several cpus running 20 
> million to 30 million lines of C code.

> Every single Android cell phone has a Linux operating system written in 
> C.  Every single Apple cell phone has an iOS operating system written in C.
> 
> All Microsoft operating systems are written in C.

It uses a mix of languages, like .NET ones. Some APIs use C++. Many 
still use C, although it likes to call it C++.

That is what is visible from the developer perspective. Internally, I've 
no idea.

>  All Apple PC 
> operating systems are written in C.  Linux is written in C.  Unix is 
> written in C.  Etc, etc, etc.

I use Windows. My own stuff is 100% not written in C. It makes use of OS 
and other libraries, which may well have been written in C, but when I 
call code in those libraries, it will be as native code at that point, 
not C.

The APIs used are generally refered to as C APIs, but it doesn't mean 
that C invented that primitive style of interface, which these days 
means using these types:

     i8-i64
     u8-u64
     Arrays of any of these
     Structs of any mix of these
     Pointers to any of these
     And using the machine ABI for function call conventions

Such types are common to at least a dozen languages, which will largely 
follow the ABI too.

In the case of the ABI, Win64 ABI is not specified in C terms (on SYS V 
it is, in that it uses C terms to describe the types).

Some C-language characteristics do appear in such APIs and ABIs:

   * Variadic parameters
   * The rules for struct member alignment and padding
   * The weird 'char' type that is neither i8 nor u8
   * Things like case-sensitivity in names shared between programs and 
libraries

Otherwise, all those reams of C code could be replaced overnight by 
another comparable language, or even assembly, and no one would notice 
(other than it might be faster/slower or smaller/bigger).

The language called C could be split into two parts:

  * The lower-level set of primitive types, the basic set of operators, 
control-flow facilities, the concept of imported and exported names and 
so on. A kind of VM if you like.

  * The actual language C with its idiosyncratic syntax, its various 
quirks and its messy attempts at providing those primitive types and a 
million other things that people associate with it, like its macro 
system, nested headers and lack of modules.

The first part is a common subset of many languages. Doubtless many 
systems languages exist, have existed, or could exist that make short 
work of such a language spec.

But it is a fact that C has dominated that area of mainsteam systems 
languages, to the extent that there are hardly any viable alternatives. 
(C++ doesn't count.)

There are a few languages around now that call themselves systems 
languages, but I doubt if they could be implemented in 180KB (the size 
of tcc.exe).

(There is my language, which I've used exclusively for systems work for 
decades, but that is a personal tool so hardly mainstream.

But one reason why I didn't let it die 20 years ago is /because/ there 
wasn't a small-footprint alternative to C that I could switch to.)

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#7448

Am 01.03.2022 um 03:23 schrieb Lynn McGuire:
> On 2/28/2022 7:29 PM, rthiebaud wrote:
>> On 2/28/22 20:26, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>>> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>>>>
>>>>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. 
>>>>> Now, Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 
>>>>> standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read more here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
>>>>
>>>> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.
>>>
>>> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there than 
>>> anything else.  Just about every real time system is running C.  
>>> Linux is totally written in C code.  All engine management systems 
>>> are running C.  Etc, etc, etc.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>
>> How does the number of lines of C running compare to the number of 
>> lines of Cobol running?
> 
> Not even close, C big time the winner.
> 
> Every single vehicle running in the USA has several cpus running 20 
> million to 30 million lines of C code.

For embedded-puorposes C++ is currently more frequently used.
Look at the job offers. C is an outdated language.

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#7454

On 01/03/2022 14:31, Bonita Montero wrote:
> Am 01.03.2022 um 03:23 schrieb Lynn McGuire:
>> On 2/28/2022 7:29 PM, rthiebaud wrote:
>>> On 2/28/22 20:26, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:

>>>>
>>>> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there
>>>> than anything else.  Just about every real time system is running
>>>> C.  Linux is totally written in C code.  All engine management
>>>> systems are running C.  Etc, etc, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> How does the number of lines of C running compare to the number of
>>> lines of Cobol running?
>>
>> Not even close, C big time the winner.
>>
>> Every single vehicle running in the USA has several cpus running 20
>> million to 30 million lines of C code.
> 
> For embedded-puorposes C++ is currently more frequently used.
> Look at the job offers. C is an outdated language.

You sometimes seem to live in a world of make-believe...

Use of C++ is definitely increasing in the embedded world, but
especially on smaller systems C is dominant by a long way.

We understand that you prefer C++ to C.  But wishful thinking will not
change reality.

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#7456

Am 01.03.2022 um 17:25 schrieb David Brown:
> On 01/03/2022 14:31, Bonita Montero wrote:
>> Am 01.03.2022 um 03:23 schrieb Lynn McGuire:
>>> On 2/28/2022 7:29 PM, rthiebaud wrote:
>>>> On 2/28/22 20:26, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
> 
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there
>>>>> than anything else.  Just about every real time system is running
>>>>> C.  Linux is totally written in C code.  All engine management
>>>>> systems are running C.  Etc, etc, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>> How does the number of lines of C running compare to the number of
>>>> lines of Cobol running?
>>>
>>> Not even close, C big time the winner.
>>>
>>> Every single vehicle running in the USA has several cpus running 20
>>> million to 30 million lines of C code.
>>
>> For embedded-puorposes C++ is currently more frequently used.
>> Look at the job offers. C is an outdated language.
> 
> You sometimes seem to live in a world of make-believe...
> 
> Use of C++ is definitely increasing in the embedded world, but
> especially on smaller systems C is dominant by a long way.

That are only very small systems where C++ isn't appropriate.
Here in Germany there are much more Job offerings for embedded
-developers asking for C++ skills than for C skills only.

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#7457

On 01/03/2022 18:13, Bonita Montero wrote:
> Am 01.03.2022 um 17:25 schrieb David Brown:
>> On 01/03/2022 14:31, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>> Am 01.03.2022 um 03:23 schrieb Lynn McGuire:
>>>> On 2/28/2022 7:29 PM, rthiebaud wrote:
>>>>> On 2/28/22 20:26, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there
>>>>>> than anything else.  Just about every real time system is running
>>>>>> C.  Linux is totally written in C code.  All engine management
>>>>>> systems are running C.  Etc, etc, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> How does the number of lines of C running compare to the number of
>>>>> lines of Cobol running?
>>>>
>>>> Not even close, C big time the winner.
>>>>
>>>> Every single vehicle running in the USA has several cpus running 20
>>>> million to 30 million lines of C code.
>>>
>>> For embedded-puorposes C++ is currently more frequently used.
>>> Look at the job offers. C is an outdated language.
>>
>> You sometimes seem to live in a world of make-believe...
>>
>> Use of C++ is definitely increasing in the embedded world, but
>> especially on smaller systems C is dominant by a long way.
> 
> That are only very small systems where C++ isn't appropriate.

I did not say that C++ could not be used, or even that C++ would not be
appropriate.  I said that C++ was /not/ used - C is is used.  There are
a great many reasons - some good, some bad - why C is used on small
embedded systems.

> Here in Germany there are much more Job offerings for embedded
> -developers asking for C++ skills than for C skills only.

That does not contradict me in any way.  Companies are looking for new
people with C++ skills, because - as I said - the use of C++ in embedded
systems is /increasing/.  They don't need new C programmers, because
they already have C programmers.

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#7458

> That does not contradict me in any way.  Companies are looking for new
> people with C++ skills, because - as I said - the use of C++ in embedded
> systems is /increasing/.  They don't need new C programmers, because
> they already have C programmers.

Most embedded-systems have CPUs beyond small PICs or 8051
where you can write in C++.
And on small CPUs like PICs and 8041 the applications being
run are so simple (because limited by small resources) that
C++ isn't a noticeable benefit.
But look at the Arduino UNO - although not having a heap or
a stack you can develop for it in a limited C++-subset with
slight advantages of C++.

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#7493

On 01/03/2022 18:42, David Brown wrote:
> That does not contradict me in any way.  Companies are looking for new
> people with C++ skills, because - as I said - the use of C++ in embedded
> systems is/increasing/.  They don't need new C programmers, because
> they already have C programmers.

We're embedded systems. (though it seems odd to me to use that term for 
something with a thousand times more memory than the mainframes I 
started on...)

The OS layer is Linux, and it's in C. Including the libraries we get 
from the chip manufacturers, and we often end up hacking them. We don't 
often have to fiddle with Linux, but it's not that rare we're looking 
into the code to see what went wrong...

The application we run on top is entirely C++.

At the skill levels we require I would be astounded to find anyone who 
cannot use both languages at least to some degree.

That's skill BTW, not experience - we have an intern system where we 
bring in undergraduates for their last summer. A lot of them get job offers.

Andy

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#7449

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 2/28/2022 7:29 PM, rthiebaud wrote:

>> How does the number of lines of C running compare to the number of lines 
>> of Cobol running?
>
>Not even close, C big time the winner.
>
>Every single vehicle running in the USA has several cpus running 20 
>million to 30 million lines of C code.

Sorry, you can't add the number of vehicles and conclude anything
about the number of lines of C code vs. COBOL code, particularly when
a large portion of it is based on wind river, linux and other embedded
operating environments (i.e. not bespoke).

Estimates of the number of lines of COBOL code running today range
from 750 to 800 billion lines.  Mostly bespoke.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/

>
>Every single Android cell phone has a Linux operating system written in 

There is only _one_ linux operating system source tree that everyone
shares.  Likewise for the Android user-level code as well.

COBOL code is almost completely bespoke.

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#7441

On 2022-03-01, Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.
>
> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there than 
> anything else.  Just about every real time system is running C.  Linux 
> is totally written in C code.  All engine management systems are running 
> C.  Etc, etc, etc.

None of that refutes "C is not modern".  Quite the opposite; a language
that is popular must be modern if, in spite of popularity, there isn't a
lot of code written in it yet. Oceans of code tend to confirm lack of
modernity.

The statement is correct; C is not a modern language. The phrase "modern
C" doesn't imply otherwise; it just refers to a dialect that is new
relative to other dialects of C. Some things have been modernized due to
some people's expectations that come from contact with other new things.

In other respects, it's an oxymoron, like "modern Fortran".

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal

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#7445

On 01/03/2022 01:26, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>
> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there than 
> anything else.  Just about every real time system is running C.  Linux 
> is totally written in C code.  All engine management systems are 
> running C.  Etc, etc, etc.

This is a silly argument. C was created before anything else suitable 
for such things existed. So no wonder  "more C code running out there 
than anything else" as you put it.

People are normally slower to make changes; They always say "if it is 
working why fix it"?

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#7446

Am 01.03.2022 um 02:26 schrieb Lynn McGuire:
> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>>
>>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, 
>>> Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.
>>>
>>> Read more here:
>>>
>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
>>
>> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.
> 
> Sorry but you are wrong.  There is more C code running out there than 
> anything else. ...

Because it's a language easy to learn. But it'ts not as
modern language since it lacks all modern language facicities.

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#7464

On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>
>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, 
>> Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.
>>
>> Read more here:
>>
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
> 
> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.

What is your definition of a modern language ?

Lynn

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#7465

Am 02.03.2022 um 05:45 schrieb Lynn McGuire:
> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>>
>>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, 
>>> Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.
>>>
>>> Read more here:
>>>
>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
>>
>> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.
> 
> What is your definition of a modern language ?

OOP, RAII, generic programming, functional programming,
proper error-handling like with exceptions.

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#7466

On 02/03/2022 04:46, Bonita Montero wrote:
> Am 02.03.2022 um 05:45 schrieb Lynn McGuire:
>> On 2/28/2022 11:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>> Am 28.02.2022 um 17:43 schrieb Amine Moulay Ramdane:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Linus Torvalds prepares to move the Linux kernel to modern C
>>>>
>>>> The Linux kernel's foundation is the ancient C89 standard of C. Now, 
>>>> Torvalds has decided to upgrade to 2011's more modern C11 standard.
>>>>
>>>> Read more here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-prepares-to-move-the-linux-kernel-to-modern-c/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0h&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%20Trending%20Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1oF1ysACG28YRYJnnYlt7oCzfRhXSUePOKd4xsycb3F8GGwxIfeAXZI8Y 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Amine Moulay Ramdane.
>>>
>>> C isn't a modern language, no matter which standard.
>>
>> What is your definition of a modern language ?
> 
> OOP, RAII, generic programming, functional programming,
> proper error-handling like with exceptions.

They all sound like things designed to make coding harder and less 
accessible.

What is available now are almost limitless resources which languages 
tend to use in the wrong ways, IMO. Such as making hugely complex 
installations.

My own stuff over the last few years has introduced:

* Whole-program compilers
* 64-bit everything (C is still stuck on 32-bits)
* Super-fast compilers ...
* ... which are enough to run programs from source, subject to project scale

While at same time striving for clean, easy-to-understand syntax.

Perhaps your idea of a modern language is the torturous C++ examples you 
keep churning out (so complex you can't even see needless duplications); 
that's not mine!

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#7471

>>>>> standard.
>>>>>
> * Whole-program compilers
> * 64-bit everything (C is still stuck on 32-bits)
> * Super-fast compilers ...
  Who says
C is stuck is 32 bits?

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