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Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux

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  Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux White Spirit <wulfgar1976@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 01:33 -0700
    Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-06-03 07:49 -0500
      Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-06-03 15:46 +0000
        Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-06-03 17:18 +0100
          Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-06-03 17:08 +0000
            Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-06-03 19:37 +0100
              Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-06-03 19:40 +0000
                Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-06-03 21:48 +0100
                Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-06-03 23:03 +0000

#8306 — Re: Recommended distro to install for a newcomer to Linux

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I am going to download live DVDs for PCLinux OS, Mint and Mageia to try out and see which one I think is best.

The last time I used Ubuntu on a home computer was a few years ago but my netbook has the latest version with the Unity interface.  I'm not so keen on it.

I like the rolling release system but my experience with Arch was that it sometimes introduced bugs that necessitated downgrading the affected packages until the problem was fixed.  If PCLinuxOS isn't as 'bleeding edge' as Arch that won't put me off.

OpenSuse can also be configured to be rolling release by replacing all repositories with the Tumbleweed repository.  I haven't tried this on my home computers because NVidia's own drivers aren't supported with Tumbleweed and Nouveau doesn't give me the performance I need - at least on my desktop.  Because I use my laptop as a test-bed for upgrades before carrying them out on my desktop, I have it configured for standard releases.

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#8307

Aragorn writes:
> What I meant was that Debian could possibly - and please do note the
> suggestive rather than declarative nature of the term "possibly" -
> wants to placate the FSF as an organization.

That's part of what is hilarious.

> After all, if Debian truly wanted to stay true to the FSF's ideals and
> the FSF's definition of Free Software...

The Debian Free Software Guidelines define Free Software for Debian.
They exclude documents licensed under the FSF's GFDL.  The FSF
disapproves of "non-free".  Well, that's their opinion.

The FSF and Debian are two distinct, independent organizations.  They
share many values but have many differences.  Neither is the creature of
the other.  Neither has any control over the other.

And the notion that Debian depends on the FSF for money is *truly*
hilarious.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

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#8309

On Monday, June 3rd, 2013, at 07:49:01h -0500, John Hasler explained:

> The FSF and Debian are two distinct, independent organizations.  They
> share many values but have many differences.  Neither is the creature of
> the other.  Neither has any control over the other.

But *in the beginning*, according to the The Debian Administrator's Handbook
at

<http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/the-debian-project.html>

QUOTE

   When he created Debian, in 1993, *under the leadership of the FSF*,
   Ian Murdock had clear objectives, which he expressed in the Debian Manifesto. 

UNQUOTE

Obviously much water has passed under the bridge between Debian and
FSF during the past 20 years.

Furthermore it is most important to remember that Debian not an organisation
per se, but is a branded product of Software In the Public Interest (SPI),
which was formed on June 16, 1997 in the state of New York.

According to the Debian FAQ at

<http://www.linuxtopia.ORG/online_books/linux_system_administration/debian_linux_guides/debian_linux_faq/ch-contributing.en_003.html>

QUOTE

 Software in the Public Interest (SPI) is an IRS 501(c)(3) non-profit
 organization, formed when FSF *withdrew* their sponsorship of Debian.

UNQUOTE

It therefore should be clear that the Debian Project does not receive financial
support from FSF, and possibly the only political support is of a token
moral form.

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#8310

J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> writes:
> John Hasler explained:

>> The FSF and Debian are two distinct, independent organizations.  They
>> share many values but have many differences.  Neither is the creature of
>> the other.  Neither has any control over the other.
>
> But *in the beginning*, according to the The Debian Administrator's Handbook
> at
>
> <http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/the-debian-project.html>
>
> QUOTE
>
>    When he created Debian, in 1993, *under the leadership of the FSF*,
>    Ian Murdock had clear objectives, which he expressed in the Debian
>    Manifesto.
>
> UNQUOTE

The initial announcement on comp.os.linux.development can still be
found, and doesn’t mention the FSF at all.  Their own history says the
period of FSF sponsorship was over a year later.  I don’t know where
that website is getting its information from but it doesn’t seem to be
well supported by other sources.

Also, it is simply not credible that it wouldn’t have had ‘GNU’ in the
name from day 1 if the FSF had been somehow involved in founding it.

-- 
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#8311

On Monday, June 3rd, 2013, at 17:18:25h +0100,
R J Kettlewell pondered:

> I don’t know where that website is getting its information from

The website document is

    "The Debian Administrator's Handbook"

written by two highly respected Debian developers:

Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.ORG> and

Roland Mas <lolando@debian.ORG>.

It is available as an official Debian package "debian-handbook".

  <http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/debian-handbook>

  dpkg -p debian-handbook
  Package: debian-handbook
  Priority: optional
  Section: doc
  Installed-Size: 23248
  Maintainer: Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
  Architecture: all
  Version: 6.0+20121031
  Filename: pool/main/d/debian-handbook/debian-handbook_6.0+20121031_all.deb
  Size: 22018418
  MD5sum: c7f995f9a16db038869d2ff5da00cf23
  Description: reference book for Debian users and system administrators
  Accessible to all, the Debian Administrator's Handbook teaches the essentials
  to anyone who wants to become an effective and independent Debian GNU/Linux
  administrator.
  .
  It covers all the topics that a competent Linux administrator should master,
  from the installation and the update of the system, up to the creation of
  packages and the compilation of the kernel, but also monitoring, backup and
  migration, without forgetting advanced topics like SELinux setup to secure
  services, automated installations, or virtualization with Xen, KVM or LXC.
  .
  The Debian Administrator's Handbook has been written by two Debian
  developers — Raphaël Hertzog and Roland Mas.
  .
  This package contains the English book covering Debian 6.0 “Squeeze”. All
  the files are available in /usr/share/doc/debian-handbook/.
  Homepage: http://debian-handbook.info

  dpkg -S /usr/share/doc/debian-handbook/html/the-debian-project.html 
  debian-handbook

  grep leadership
  /usr/share/doc/debian-handbook/html/the-debian-project.html

  /usr/share/doc/debian-handbook/html/the-debian-project.html:
  When he created Debian, in 1993, under the leadership of the FSF,
  Ian Murdock had clear objectives

If one cannot trust the contents of a Debian package concerning the
history of Debian written by Debian developers, what can one trust?

Or maybe it is all just Debianista revistionist historical propaganda?

On further reflection is is possible that the authors, who are not
native English speakers may have chosen the word leadership inappropriately,
and intended the meaning of influenced, inspired, etc, rather than the
literal meaning of oversight from a position of authority.

> but it doesn’t seem to be well supported by other sources.

You should file a bug report if you have evidence to shew that the
statement is incorrect rather than undermine the credibility of the
information by unsubstantiated innuendo.

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#8312

J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> writes:
> You should file a bug report if you have evidence to shew that the
> statement is incorrect rather than undermine the credibility of the
> information by unsubstantiated innuendo.

I suggest you go and look up the sources I referred to, rather than
resorting to insults.

-- 
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#8313

On Monday, June 3rd, 2013, at 19:37:57h +0100,
R J Kettlewell instructed:

> I suggest you "go and look up the sources" I referred to, rather than
> resorting to insults.

It is quite clear that for a period of time the Debian project was
under the control of the FSF because the Debian web site says so,
despite your protestations otherwise.

From <http://www.debian.ORG/intro/cooperation>

QUOTE

  From: bruce@pixar.com (Bruce Perens)
  Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 18:04 PDT
  To: debian-announce@lists.debian.org
  Subject: Debian and FSF Cooperate


  Some time ago, the Debian group decided to decline continued
  FSF sponsorship.

  ...

  even though *FSF no longer has the control* over the project
  that came with their former sponsorship of Debian

UNQUOTE

If on Sunday July 21st, 1996, FSF no longer had control,
then logically it follows that FSF did have control for
a period of time prior to that.

Furthermore, a posting in comp.os.linux.announce archived at

<http://www.anonymous-insider.NET/open-source-software/research/1996/0428.html>

QUOTE

   From: b...@pixar.com (Bruce Perens)
   Subject: FSF and Debian
   Date: 1996/05/01
   Message-ID: < cola-liw-830950619-28603-0@liw.clinet.fi>#1/1
   X-Deja-AN: 152497465
   x-original-date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 10:20 PDT
   organization: ?
   followup-to: comp.os.linux.misc
   newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce

   This morning, FSF announced to the gnu.announce newsgroup that it was
   no longer sponsoring Debian.

   Ian Murdock, *who was sponsored by FSF*, stepped down from the project
   leader position some time ago so that he could spend more time on
   school, work, and his family.

   ...

 UNQUOTE

And from the Debian FAQ document, an OFFICIAL document of 
Software in the Public Interest, archived at

<http://sdn.vlsm.ORG/share/Debian-Doc/FAQ/ch-basic_defs.en.html>

QUOTE

   The Debian GNU/Linux FAQ 

   Copyright © 1996-2003 by Software in the Public Interest 

   ...

   The Debian Project was created by Ian Murdock in 1993,
   *initially under the sponsorship*
   of the Free Software Foundation's GNU project.

QUOTE

This is clear evidence that Ian Murdock whilst working on Debian
was under the sponsorship, authority, control, leadership, influence,
or however you want to describe it, of the FSF.


In my postings I have provided quoted material and URLs for the
full documents, not just unhelpful and disparaging comments of
"go and look up the sources" in some newgroup or other.

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#8314

J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> writes:
> R J Kettlewell instructed:

>> I suggest you go and look up the sources I referred to, rather than
>> resorting to insults.
>
> It is quite clear that for a period of time the Debian project was
> under the control of the FSF because the Debian web site says so,
> despite your protestations otherwise.

What I stated was what I found in the sources I referred to.

As I’ve pointed out before, when you read between the lines, you risk
finding nothing but your own prejudices.

> In my postings I have provided quoted material and URLs for the
> full documents, not just unhelpful and disparaging comments of
> "go and look up the sources" in some newgroup or other.

It was out of the question to just ask for a link, of course.
Much easier to go straight to accusations of “unsubstantiated innuendo”.

-- 
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#8315

On 2013-06-03, J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> wrote:

> This is clear evidence that Ian Murdock whilst working on Debian
> was under the sponsorship, authority, control, leadership, influence,
> or however you want to describe it, of the FSF.

So, why the discontinuation?

nb

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