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thirty years ago

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  thirty years ago Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-08-25 17:44 +0000
    Re: thirty years ago John McCue <jmccue@jmcw541.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> - 2021-08-25 19:10 +0000
      Re: thirty years ago Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-25 16:47 -0700
        Re: thirty years ago The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:51 +0100
        Re: thirty years ago Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-26 12:14 -0400
    Re: thirty years ago doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) - 2021-08-25 22:25 +0000
    Re: thirty years ago SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-26 00:12 -0400
      Re: thirty years ago The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 10:02 +0100
        Linux on a Chromebook (was: thirty years ago) Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-26 12:21 -0400
          Re: Linux on a Chromebook (was: thirty years ago) Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-08-26 18:27 +0200
            Re: Linux on a Chromebook The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 17:49 +0100
            Re: Linux on a Chromebook Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-26 12:50 -0400
              Re: Linux on a Chromebook Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-08-26 19:35 +0200
                Re: Linux on a Chromebook Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-26 14:07 -0400
                  Re: Linux on a Chromebook Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-08-26 18:17 +0000
                  Re: Linux on a Chromebook Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-08-26 22:36 +0200
                    Re: Linux on a Chromebook The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:06 +0100
          Re: Linux on a Chromebook The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 17:48 +0100
          Re: Linux on a Chromebook (was: thirty years ago) Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-08-26 17:19 +0000
            Re: Linux on a Chromebook (was: thirty years ago) Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-08-26 19:45 +0200
            Re: Linux on a Chromebook The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 20:20 +0100
          Re: Linux on a Chromebook SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-26 21:38 -0400
            Re: Linux on a Chromebook The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 03:34 +0100
              Re: Linux on a Chromebook Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-08-27 13:32 +0000
              Re: Linux on a Chromebook Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-27 13:30 -0400
                Re: Linux on a Chromebook The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-28 09:34 +0100
                  Re: Linux on a Chromebook Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-28 12:42 -0400
                    Re: Linux on a Chromebook The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-28 20:18 +0100
            Re: Linux on a Chromebook Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-26 21:06 -0700
        Re: thirty years ago SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-26 21:26 -0400
          Re: thirty years ago The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:49 +0100
    Re: thirty years ago "Andrei Z." <no-email@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-30 08:29 +0300
    Re: thirty years ago Solbu <solbu@solbu.net> - 2021-09-04 17:10 +0200
    Re: thirty years ago "Andrei Z." <no-email@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-19 17:34 +0300
      Re: thirty years ago "Andrei Z." <no-email@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-20 08:23 +0300

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#32892 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On 26/08/2021 18:19, Eli the Bearded wrote:
> My method for picking a new laptop is generally:
> 
> 1. Come up with some rough specs for what I want, to narrow the field
> 2. From the offerings in that narrowed field, search for "How to install
>     Linux on XYZ"
> 3. Discard any offerings with no promising results
> 4. If nothing left, readjust specs in restart, otherwise buy one of
>     the offerings
> 
Pretty much how I did it
But with a stingy budget, reconditioned ex company HP Pavilion was the 
best deal

> My most recent purchase was a Microsoft Surface Go 2, which met my
> criteria of ~11" screen, 8GB RAM, slot for sd or microsd card, USB-C,
> and Linux works. I was in a rush, so limited my search to Surface
> offerings because I had heard they mostly work well with Linux already.

I needed a mic and camera as well. Didnt need SD, but installed normal SSD


It's my travel laptop, so needs full comms.

Screen is good, sound is adequate, no cooling slots underneath to get 
blocked by bedclothes - i was in hospital with it - mic and camera. Ran 
Linux (Mint) straight out of the install DVD

Good workmanlike well made bog standard hardware.


-- 
“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker

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#32911 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On 08/26/2021 12:21 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:02:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 26/08/2021 05:12, SixOverFive wrote:
>>> Strong rumors that Win-11 replaces a lot of the
>>>     behind-the-scenes code with de-facto Linux, Win-12
>>>     will be almost entirely Linux tweaked into a
>>>     look-alike/work-alike that fools people into thinking
>>>     it is still the old Winders line. MS just can't keep
>>>     up with 30+ years of "legacy" and and HAS to switch
>>>     to a more organized paradigm.
>>>
>> MS will have worked out where its income lies, as IBM did when it
>> realised the money wasn't necessarily in hardware or operating
>> systems.
> 
> Everybody seems doing cloud today. Thus I didn't expect there would be a
> Windows 11. I assumed they would create some dumb client after Windows 10
> to connect to their cloud instead. Similar to what Google did with Chrome
> OS, depending much or less on their cloud (pretty much useless without
> internet connection).

   Have no doubts, MS badly *wants* a return to the
   client/server + license fees paradigm. Every release
   edges further and further in that direction.

   Oh yea, since your "machine" and data really reside
   on MS servers it makes it a hell of a lot easier to
   monitor/mine/sell your stuff ....

   With MS (and G), assume evil intent until proven otherwise.


> Btw. I might need a new laptop after 9 years hacking on this one in front
> of me and thought about a Chromebook, because they are cheap (no Windows
> OEM license?). But don't want to give up on Linux. There are a lot of
> Howtos in the internet, and some reporting of messing all up. Anyone
> successfully installed Linux - preferably next to Chrome OS - on a
> Chromebook here?

    Some you CAN flush and install Linux, some you can't. I think
    manufacturers have some deal with G and/or MS to intentionally
    try and stick people with proprietary OSs. There are a few
    outfits that sell notebooks pre-installed with Linux, but they
    are expensive (good high-powered units though).

    This missive is being writ on a N300-based Dell P24-something,
    compact, cheap, absolutely not for modern games or video
    work. Flushed Winders and managed to get MX in there. Winders
    actually used up about 70% of the 32gb SSD ... MX only about
    15 percent  :-)

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#32915 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On 27/08/2021 02:38, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 08/26/2021 12:21 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:02:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> On 26/08/2021 05:12, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>> Strong rumors that Win-11 replaces a lot of the
>>>>     behind-the-scenes code with de-facto Linux, Win-12
>>>>     will be almost entirely Linux tweaked into a
>>>>     look-alike/work-alike that fools people into thinking
>>>>     it is still the old Winders line. MS just can't keep
>>>>     up with 30+ years of "legacy" and and HAS to switch
>>>>     to a more organized paradigm.
>>>>
>>> MS will have worked out where its income lies, as IBM did when it
>>> realised the money wasn't necessarily in hardware or operating
>>> systems.
>>
>> Everybody seems doing cloud today. Thus I didn't expect there would be a
>> Windows 11. I assumed they would create some dumb client after Windows 10
>> to connect to their cloud instead. Similar to what Google did with Chrome
>> OS, depending much or less on their cloud (pretty much useless without
>> internet connection).
> 
>    Have no doubts, MS badly *wants* a return to the
>    client/server + license fees paradigm. Every release
>    edges further and further in that direction.
> 
>    Oh yea, since your "machine" and data really reside
>    on MS servers it makes it a hell of a lot easier to
>    monitor/mine/sell your stuff ....
> 
>    With MS (and G), assume evil intent until proven otherwise.
> 
> 
>> Btw. I might need a new laptop after 9 years hacking on this one in front
>> of me and thought about a Chromebook, because they are cheap (no Windows
>> OEM license?). But don't want to give up on Linux. There are a lot of
>> Howtos in the internet, and some reporting of messing all up. Anyone
>> successfully installed Linux - preferably next to Chrome OS - on a
>> Chromebook here?
> 
>     Some you CAN flush and install Linux, some you can't. I think
>     manufacturers have some deal with G and/or MS to intentionally
>     try and stick people with proprietary OSs. There are a few
>     outfits that sell notebooks pre-installed with Linux, but they
>     are expensive (good high-powered units though).
> 
My take on this was that a second hand two year old quality ex business 
laptop would not only run linux 'out of the box', but was better specced 
for the same price as a new chromebook

Uk prices for a new chromebook with 4GB ram and nasty essd start around 
£200

I can get a refurbed Lenovo for that and for a little more an HP laptop. 
Core i3 technology and 8GB RAM. Scrub out windows and overwrite the drive.


>     This missive is being writ on a N300-based Dell P24-something,
>     compact, cheap, absolutely not for modern games or video
>     work. Flushed Winders and managed to get MX in there. Winders
>     actually used up about 70% of the 32gb SSD ... MX only about
>     15 percent  :-)

Yup. Its hard to get an SSD smaller than 120GB these days! I think a raw 
linux Mint install is only about 8GB -  its hard to go over 20GB even 
loaded up with apps. Data is another matter of course

I looked very hard at chromebooks, but they were all either built down 
to a price, or more expensive than a laptop anyway.

You can get the same hardware as a chromebook running windows for very 
little extra anyway, but why would you?

Want ability to program SD cards? buy a USB addition



-- 
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the 
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

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#32921 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On 2021-08-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 27/08/2021 02:38, SixOverFive wrote:
>
>>    Have no doubts, MS badly *wants* a return to the
>>    client/server + license fees paradigm. Every release
>>    edges further and further in that direction.

a.k.a "Software as a Service" (SaaS)

I find it ironic that the goal of the modern right-wing
business establishment is the elimination of private
ownership - the dream of Karl Marx.

>>    Oh yea, since your "machine" and data really reside
>>    on MS servers it makes it a hell of a lot easier to
>>    monitor/mine/sell your stuff ....
>> 
>>    With MS (and G), assume evil intent until proven otherwise.

+1

>>     Some you CAN flush and install Linux, some you can't. I think
>>     manufacturers have some deal with G and/or MS to intentionally
>>     try and stick people with proprietary OSs. There are a few
>>     outfits that sell notebooks pre-installed with Linux, but they
>>     are expensive (good high-powered units though).
> 
> My take on this was that a second hand two year old quality ex business 
> laptop would not only run linux 'out of the box', but was better specced 
> for the same price as a new chromebook

The laptop I'm writing this on is a refurbished Lenovo T410,
an i5 box that has no trouble with Linux.  Plus - and this
is important for me - it has a professional-grade keyboard,
which is increasingly difficult to find in a laptop.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  They don't understand Microsoft
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  has stolen their car and parked
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  a taxi in their driveway.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Mayayana

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#32925 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:34:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> Uk prices for a new chromebook with 4GB ram and nasty essd start
> around £200

4 GB would be enough for me. More important is the screen size. Should at
least have a 15" display.

Why is the ESSD nasty? I tested some in a shop and it felt fluid. No idea
though how it would behave if Linux was installed.
-- 
Andreas

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#32933 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On 27/08/2021 18:30, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:34:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> Uk prices for a new chromebook with 4GB ram and nasty essd start
>> around £200
> 
> 4 GB would be enough for me. More important is the screen size. Should at
> least have a 15" display.
> 
> Why is the ESSD nasty? I tested some in a shop and it felt fluid. No idea
> though how it would behave if Linux was installed.
> 

its cheap and doesn't last?

My real point was that  refurbished computers are great value.Better 
value than new mass market chromebooks

I can pick up a  used computer for less than the cost of buying the 
processor in it. Bang for the buck is far better than new.

My cheap but new laptop didn't last as long as the refurbed model that 
replaced it had *already* lasted before I bought it!

You might think what can go wrong in a cheap chromebook or laptop?
Backlight flickers. LCD screen has viciously narrow viewing angle and no 
contrast. Interface board sockets fail with repeated use - Ethernet, 
USB, power sockets all badly made and lose contact. Poor wifi 
performance that drops out..camera fails. Keyboard is 'muddy'.
.
My £200 'new' laptop developed or had *all* of the above, and then it 
wouldn't boot and gave memory errors no matter what RAM I put in, I just 
gave up.

Same disk, same RAM in an used HP - faultless performance and twice the 
wifi speed as well, Built to last.

The simple fact is that a second hand lightly used £500 laptop is way 
better than a new £200 laptop.

And can be got for £200 more or less

My server here is a 15 year old MB that came with DDR2 RAM, and a 
windows XP license for FREE!!

The disks in it did not, I agree. But its been the house server for 
getting on for ten years now and is still capable of saturating the 
100Mbps network that connects it to the world.



-- 
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's 
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

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#32944 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:34:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> On 27/08/2021 18:30, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:34:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> Uk prices for a new chromebook with 4GB ram and nasty essd start
>>> around £200
>> 4 GB would be enough for me. More important is the screen
>> size. Should at
>> least have a 15" display.
>> Why is the ESSD nasty? I tested some in a shop and it felt fluid. No
>> idea
>> though how it would behave if Linux was installed.
>> 
>
> its cheap and doesn't last?
>
> My real point was that  refurbished computers are great value.Better
> value than new mass market chromebooks
>
> I can pick up a  used computer for less than the cost of buying the
> processor in it. Bang for the buck is far better than new.
>
> My cheap but new laptop didn't last as long as the refurbed model that
> replaced it had *already* lasted before I bought it!
>
> You might think what can go wrong in a cheap chromebook or laptop?
> Backlight flickers. LCD screen has viciously narrow viewing angle and
> no contrast. Interface board sockets fail with repeated use -
> Ethernet, USB, power sockets all badly made and lose contact. Poor
> wifi performance that drops out..camera fails. Keyboard is 'muddy'.

I had several "budget" laptops made by Acer. All died from heavy use
within two years. Usually the CPU got so hot over a long period of time
that keyboard keys situated on top "glued" and wouldn't work.

The Acer One netbook almost died at the very first start as the fan of
the CPU wouldn't come on that an emergency shutdown occurred. But probably
too late. Took a few months (just after the warranty went out) to get
turned on at all.

But amazingly the one here in front of me, another notebook for $350
still works after nine years now. I "lost" three out of four cursor keys
already. Most of the keys lost their printing (no idea how you call the
characters printed on them). Both speakers died in the past years and the
lid won't hold in place. But besides this it is still functionally. It's
by HP.

I might go for another budget machine if I can afford a new computer. That
can be a refurbished laptop or a Chromebook. Unfortunately most 15.6"
Chromebooks I saw in a shop were made by Acer...

> My £200 'new' laptop developed or had *all* of the above, and then it
> wouldn't boot and gave memory errors no matter what RAM I put in, I
> just gave up.
>
> Same disk, same RAM in an used HP - faultless performance and twice
> the wifi speed as well, Built to last.

You just confirm that HP have a better quality (am not working for HP to
say this).
-- 
Andreas

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#32949 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On 28/08/2021 17:42, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> You just confirm that HP have a better quality (am not working for HP to
> say this).

That was not really my intention. My intention is to make the point that 
second hand quality is often better than new crap.


-- 
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

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#32917 — Re: Linux on a Chromebook

On 8/26/21 18:38, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 08/26/2021 12:21 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:02:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> On 26/08/2021 05:12, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>> Strong rumors that Win-11 replaces a lot of the
>>>>     behind-the-scenes code with de-facto Linux, Win-12
>>>>     will be almost entirely Linux tweaked into a
>>>>     look-alike/work-alike that fools people into thinking
>>>>     it is still the old Winders line. MS just can't keep
>>>>     up with 30+ years of "legacy" and and HAS to switch
>>>>     to a more organized paradigm.
>>>>
>>> MS will have worked out where its income lies, as IBM did when it
>>> realised the money wasn't necessarily in hardware or operating
>>> systems.
>>
>> Everybody seems doing cloud today. Thus I didn't expect there would be a
>> Windows 11. I assumed they would create some dumb client after Windows 10
>> to connect to their cloud instead. Similar to what Google did with Chrome
>> OS, depending much or less on their cloud (pretty much useless without
>> internet connection).
> 
>    Have no doubts, MS badly *wants* a return to the
>    client/server + license fees paradigm. Every release
>    edges further and further in that direction.
> 
>    Oh yea, since your "machine" and data really reside
>    on MS servers it makes it a hell of a lot easier to
>    monitor/mine/sell your stuff ....
> 
>    With MS (and G), assume evil intent until proven otherwise.
> 
> 
>> Btw. I might need a new laptop after 9 years hacking on this one in front
>> of me and thought about a Chromebook, because they are cheap (no Windows
>> OEM license?). But don't want to give up on Linux. There are a lot of
>> Howtos in the internet, and some reporting of messing all up. Anyone
>> successfully installed Linux - preferably next to Chrome OS - on a
>> Chromebook here?
> 
>     Some you CAN flush and install Linux, some you can't. I think
>     manufacturers have some deal with G and/or MS to intentionally
>     try and stick people with proprietary OSs. There are a few
>     outfits that sell notebooks pre-installed with Linux, but they
>     are expensive (good high-powered units though).
> 
>     This missive is being writ on a N300-based Dell P24-something,
>     compact, cheap, absolutely not for modern games or video
>     work. Flushed Winders and managed to get MX in there. Winders
>     actually used up about 70% of the 32gb SSD ... MX only about
>     15 percent  :-)


	You can buy very nice used and refurbished Dell, i5 or i7 laptops for a 
pittance (compared to new prices), I have an E6520,
E6520, and my letest bought April 2020. E7450.   These can keep up it 
seems though they burn a bit more energy,   The Pine Book will be out of 
stock until next month and it should run about $220-$250 if you want
to escape the Intel tyranny.  Search on "Pine 64" to find the store.  I 
think it uses Manjaro with KDE.

	Enjoy your shopping...

bliss - boots & runs a Pretty Cool Linux Operating System aka pclinuxos.


-- 
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

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#32910

On 08/26/2021 05:02 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
 > On 26/08/2021 05:12, SixOverFive wrote:
 >> Strong rumors that Win-11 replaces a lot of the
 >>    behind-the-scenes code with de-facto Linux, Win-12
 >>    will be almost entirely Linux tweaked into a
 >>    look-alike/work-alike that fools people into thinking
 >>    it is still the old Winders line. MS just can't keep
 >>    up with 30+ years of "legacy" and and HAS to switch
 >>    to a more organized paradigm.
 >>
 > MS will have worked out where its income lies, as IBM did when it
 > realised the money wasn't necessarily in hardware or operating systems.
 >
 > Google has showed more enterprise than MS in terms of cloud level
 > applications but Microsoft is in a good position to pick up more than
 > just skype.
 >
 > It might make sense to do WINE properly for legacy apps, and sell an
 > entirely linux based 'windows' distro.
 >
 >
 >>    Oh, they CAN sell it because it's "value added" ...
 >>
 >>    The PROBLEM is that code snippets from their huge
 >>    well-financed development team will trickle into
 >>    mainline Linux - and soon MS lawyer will claim
 >>    to OWN Linux, sue Linus for stealing "their stuff".
 >
 > Well I am not so sure that will wash these days. Redhat and IBM dont
 > claim ownership just because they work on Linux

   Well, RH and some others mostly sell "support", but they DO
   write their own stuff for smoothly interconnecting lots of
   other processors/boxes/storage even if those boxes are out
   in "the cloud" somewhere. "Big data" customizations. MS can
   do that too and BET their code will become intermixed in
   most every Linux distro after a few years. MS is also
   "Linux-izing" some of the Winders internals (just making
   them "work-alike" except (hopefully) all the zillions of
   security issues.


 > And a lot of people with plenty of money for plenty of liars - sorry
 > lawyers - would be most unhappy to pay license fees to MS for something
 > they used to get for free.

   MS lawyers will ENSURE they do ... $$$ talks. Bill PAYS,
   Linus DOESN'T.

 > No, the desktop operating system is no longer a money spinner really.
 > Cloud apps and office apps are where MS is probably cranking in the 
dollars
 >
 > Anything that brings the mainline nonfree apps onto a linux platform is
 > worth it I think.
   For security/stability reasons if nothing else. Better for all.
   However that "who owns what ?" issue IS also out there. MS has
   tried to kill Linux before, and if it puts a penny in their
   pocket they'll scheme-up a way to try it again, and again.

   Now if we can just induce Intel to quit putting little MINIX
   machines inside the guts of their chips. That's where some
   of the latest blights came from. MINIX was/is an *educational*
   excercise, simple enough for students to grasp, it was NEVER
   meant for real-world applications and has basically ZERO
   security. Yea, yea ... the Intel engineers knew they could
   save a lot of work by putting intelligent higher-level
   management systems in there instead of hand-writing all
   the rules in microcode and solder, but ....

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#32912

On 27/08/2021 02:26, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 08/26/2021 05:02 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>  > On 26/08/2021 05:12, SixOverFive wrote:
>  >> Strong rumors that Win-11 replaces a lot of the
>  >>    behind-the-scenes code with de-facto Linux, Win-12
>  >>    will be almost entirely Linux tweaked into a
>  >>    look-alike/work-alike that fools people into thinking
>  >>    it is still the old Winders line. MS just can't keep
>  >>    up with 30+ years of "legacy" and and HAS to switch
>  >>    to a more organized paradigm.
>  >>
>  > MS will have worked out where its income lies, as IBM did when it
>  > realised the money wasn't necessarily in hardware or operating systems.
>  >
>  > Google has showed more enterprise than MS in terms of cloud level
>  > applications but Microsoft is in a good position to pick up more than
>  > just skype.
>  >
>  > It might make sense to do WINE properly for legacy apps, and sell an
>  > entirely linux based 'windows' distro.
>  >
>  >
>  >>    Oh, they CAN sell it because it's "value added" ...
>  >>
>  >>    The PROBLEM is that code snippets from their huge
>  >>    well-financed development team will trickle into
>  >>    mainline Linux - and soon MS lawyer will claim
>  >>    to OWN Linux, sue Linus for stealing "their stuff".
>  >
>  > Well I am not so sure that will wash these days. Redhat and IBM dont
>  > claim ownership just because they work on Linux
> 
>    Well, RH and some others mostly sell "support", but they DO
>    write their own stuff for smoothly interconnecting lots of
>    other processors/boxes/storage even if those boxes are out
>    in "the cloud" somewhere.

Redhat have IIRC over a hundred coders working on kernel and driver 
stuff which goes back into the FOSS pool.

The may get income from support, but they spend it on code development
Linux wouldn't be where it is without injectoions of paid man hours from 
IIBM red hat and others

  "Big data" customizations. MS can
>    do that too and BET their code will become intermixed in
>    most every Linux distro after a few years. MS is also
>    "Linux-izing" some of the Winders internals (just making
>    them "work-alike" except (hopefully) all the zillions of
>    security issues.
> 
The thing is that there are powerful and deep pockets that want Linux to 
stay open source - hardware people for example. MS wont gop up against them

> 
>  > And a lot of people with plenty of money for plenty of liars - sorry
>  > lawyers - would be most unhappy to pay license fees to MS for something
>  > they used to get for free.
> 
>    MS lawyers will ENSURE they do ... $$$ talks. Bill PAYS,
>    Linus DOESN'T.

Please, stop with your prejudice and read what is being written.
Many many people rely on Linux. Commercial people. Do you really think 
the cost of paying some lawyers to take on MS (Gates isn't really part 
of it anymore) is more than paying MS a licence fee on every CPU chip 
sold, forever?


> 
>  > No, the desktop operating system is no longer a money spinner really.
>  > Cloud apps and office apps are where MS is probably cranking in the 
> dollars
>  >
>  > Anything that brings the mainline nonfree apps onto a linux platform is
>  > worth it I think.
>    For security/stability reasons if nothing else. Better for all.
>    However that "who owns what ?" issue IS also out there. MS has
>    tried to kill Linux before, and if it puts a penny in their
>    pocket they'll scheme-up a way to try it again, and again.
> 
Steve Bullmer has been gone for 7 years now. MS isn't what it was. 
Neither is the market.

They failed with mobile phone, they pretty much failed with tablets. In 
sense MS is the odd man out in a world of BSD/LINUX based Operating 
systems.
I am sure they will in some way introduce the 'windows distro' and port 
their stuff to linux eventually. Simply because even MS cant spend time 
fixing the same bugs in windows that everyone else is fixing in linux.

The challenge is providing a legacy windows API, to linux, but who 
better to do it than MS?


>    Now if we can just induce Intel to quit putting little MINIX
>    machines inside the guts of their chips. That's where some
>    of the latest blights came from. MINIX was/is an *educational*
>    excercise, simple enough for students to grasp, it was NEVER
>    meant for real-world applications and has basically ZERO
>    security. Yea, yea ... the Intel engineers knew they could
>    save a lot of work by putting intelligent higher-level
>    management systems in there instead of hand-writing all
>    the rules in microcode and solder, but ....

LOL!

Intel has had its day, too. ARM is taking over instead. CISC is just too 
power hungry, and compilers can do a better job of optimising that CPUs 
can...


I dunno about your experience, but my experience is that x86 CPU 
development is really at an end almost. Its still clocking at the same 
speed, and all the extra goodies - caching and multiple cores - are 
introducing security issues that many find unacceptable...

No, MS is a fading star. The one that scares me is Google, and Amazon - 
AWS runs too much stuff that ought to be on a server farm.


-- 
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper 
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating 
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its 
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of 
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must 
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

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#32998

Eli the Bearded wrote:
> First Linux announcement, 25 August 1991.
> 
>    From: torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds)
>    Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
>    Subject: What would you like to see most in minix?
>    Summary: small poll for my new operating system
>    Message-ID: <1991Aug25.205708.9541@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
>    Date: 25 Aug 91 20:57:08 GMT
>    Organization: University of Helsinki
> 
> 
>    Hello everybody out there using minix -
> 
>    I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
>    professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones.  This has been brewing
>    since april, and is starting to get ready.  I'd like any feedback on
>    things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it somewhat
>    (same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons)
>    among other things).
> 
>    I've currently ported bash(1.08) and gcc(1.40), and things seem to work.
>    This implies that I'll get something practical within a few months, and
>    I'd like to know what features most people would want.  Any suggestions
>    are welcome, but I won't promise I'll implement them :-)
> 
> 		 Linus (torvalds@kruuna.helsinki.fi)
> 
>    PS.  Yes - it's free of any minix code, and it has a multi-threaded fs.
>    It is NOT protable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never
>    will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that's all I have :-(.
> 
<snip>

30 things you didn't know about the Linux kernel

https://opensource.com/article/21/8/linux-kernel

Sounds of the Compiling Linux Kernel

https://youtu.be/4yMVkQRhiiQ

https://github.com/Shizcow/SOTCLK

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#33101

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Eli the Bearded wrote:

> I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
> professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones.


If I ever get a chance to attend one of Torvalds talks, the one question
I dream of asking is: When will it be big and professional like Gnu. :-)


- -- 
Solbu - https://www.solbu.net
PGP key ID: 0x4F5AD64DFA687324
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#33234

Eli the Bearded wrote:
> First Linux announcement, 25 August 1991.
> 
>    From: torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds)
>    Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
>    Subject: What would you like to see most in minix?
>    Summary: small poll for my new operating system
>    Message-ID: <1991Aug25.205708.9541@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
>    Date: 25 Aug 91 20:57:08 GMT
>    Organization: University of Helsinki
> 
> 
>    Hello everybody out there using minix -
> 
>    I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
>    professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones.  This has been brewing
>    since april, and is starting to get ready.  I'd like any feedback on
>    things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it somewhat
>    (same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons)
>    among other things).
> 
>    I've currently ported bash(1.08) and gcc(1.40), and things seem to work.
>    This implies that I'll get something practical within a few months, and
>    I'd like to know what features most people would want.  Any suggestions
>    are welcome, but I won't promise I'll implement them :-)
> 
> 		 Linus (torvalds@kruuna.helsinki.fi)
> 
>    PS.  Yes - it's free of any minix code, and it has a multi-threaded fs.
>    It is NOT protable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never
>    will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that's all I have :-(.
> 
> 
From	Linus Torvalds <>
Date	Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:02:58 -0700
Subject	30 years since the Linux 0.01 release

https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/9/17/1018

"This is just a random note to let people know that today is actually 
one of the core 30-year anniversary dates: 0.01 was uploaded Sept 17, 1991."

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#33239

Andrei Z. wrote:
> Eli the Bearded wrote:
>> First Linux announcement, 25 August 1991.
>>
>>    From: torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds)
>>    Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
>>    Subject: What would you like to see most in minix?
>>    Summary: small poll for my new operating system
>>    Message-ID: <1991Aug25.205708.9541@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
>>    Date: 25 Aug 91 20:57:08 GMT
>>    Organization: University of Helsinki
>>
>>
>>    Hello everybody out there using minix -
>>
>>    I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
>>    professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones.  This has been brewing
>>    since april, and is starting to get ready.  I'd like any feedback on
>>    things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it somewhat
>>    (same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons)
>>    among other things).
>>
>>    I've currently ported bash(1.08) and gcc(1.40), and things seem to 
>> work.
>>    This implies that I'll get something practical within a few months, 
>> and
>>    I'd like to know what features most people would want.  Any 
>> suggestions
>>    are welcome, but I won't promise I'll implement them :-)
>>
>>          Linus (torvalds@kruuna.helsinki.fi)
>>
>>    PS.  Yes - it's free of any minix code, and it has a multi-threaded 
>> fs.
>>    It is NOT protable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably 
>> never
>>    will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that's all I have 
>> :-(.
>>
>>
> From    Linus Torvalds <>
> Date    Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:02:58 -0700
> Subject    30 years since the Linux 0.01 release
> 
> https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/9/17/1018
> 
> "This is just a random note to let people know that today is actually 
> one of the core 30-year anniversary dates: 0.01 was uploaded Sept 17, 
> 1991."

Dirk Hohndel Reflects On What Made Linux So Successful

https://www.tfir.io/dirk-hohndel-reflects-on-what-made-linux-so-successful/

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