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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #13117 > unrolled thread

Devuan

Started byMladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com>
First post2014-12-29 17:13 +0000
Last post2014-12-30 09:13 +0100
Articles 20 on this page of 60 — 21 participants

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Contents

  Devuan Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> - 2014-12-29 17:13 +0000
    Re: Devuan Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2014-12-29 18:32 +0100
      Re: Devuan Grant <omg@grrr.id.au> - 2014-12-30 05:23 +1100
      Re: Devuan Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-12-29 13:55 -0500
      Re: Devuan Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2014-12-29 19:28 +0000
        Re: Devuan Grant <omg@grrr.id.au> - 2014-12-30 07:25 +1100
          Re: Devuan "John F" <j@j.ii> - 2014-12-29 13:42 -0800
            Re: Devuan Grant <omg@grrr.id.au> - 2014-12-30 09:32 +1100
              Re: Devuan Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2014-12-29 14:57 -0800
                Re: Devuan "John F" <j@j.ii> - 2014-12-30 16:37 -0800
                  Re: Devuan Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2014-12-30 18:23 -0800
                  Re: Devuan notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2014-12-31 17:57 +0000
                    Re: Devuan Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-12-31 19:07 +0000
                      Re: Devuan Grant <omg@grrr.id.au> - 2015-01-01 08:25 +1100
                      Re: Devuan Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2015-01-01 10:56 +0100
                        Re: Devuan Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2015-01-01 05:02 -0800
                          Re: Devuan John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-01-01 08:49 -0600
                            Re: Devuan Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2015-01-01 16:43 +0100
                            Re: Devuan notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2015-01-01 16:12 +0000
                              Re: Devuan Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2015-01-01 18:23 +0100
                                Re: Devuan notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2015-01-01 18:11 +0000
                                  Re: Devuan Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2015-01-01 22:05 +0100
                              Re: Devuan Grant <omg@grrr.id.au> - 2015-01-02 06:09 +1100
                            Re: Devuan Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-01-02 20:04 +0000
                              Re: Devuan notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2015-01-02 20:14 +0000
                                Re: Devuan Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2015-01-02 12:30 -0800
                                  Re: Devuan notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2015-01-02 21:31 +0000
                                    Re: Devuan Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2015-01-03 08:03 +0100
                              Re: Devuan Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-01-02 15:35 -0500
                              Re: Devuan John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-01-02 14:37 -0600
                          Re: Devuan Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2015-01-01 16:42 +0100
                    Re: Devuan Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-12-31 16:30 -0500
                      Re: Devuan Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 23:51 +0000
                        Re: Devuan Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> - 2014-12-31 23:55 +0000
                          Re: Devuan Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2014-12-31 16:49 -0800
                            Re: Devuan The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-01-01 01:50 +0000
                              Re: Devuan Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-12-31 22:03 -0500
                                Re: Devuan The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-01-01 08:46 +0000
                                  Re: Devuan Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-01-01 10:15 -0500
                                    Re: Devuan The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-01-01 16:01 +0000
                                    Re: Devuan William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2015-01-01 16:40 +0000
                                      Re: Devuan Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-01-01 17:00 +0000
                                        Re: Devuan William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2015-01-01 17:08 +0000
                                          Re: Devuan Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-01-01 17:35 +0000
                                      Re: Devuan Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-01-01 12:09 -0500
                                        Re: Devuan William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2015-01-01 17:22 +0000
                                          Re: Devuan Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-01-01 13:17 -0500
                                      Re: Devuan Grant <omg@grrr.id.au> - 2015-01-02 06:14 +1100
                                        Re: Devuan Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2015-01-03 05:27 +0000
                                          Re: Devuan Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2015-01-03 08:10 +0100
                                            Re: Devuan William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2015-01-03 09:16 +0000
                                              Re: Devuan Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2015-01-03 10:37 +0100
                                    Re: Devuan Grant <omg@grrr.id.au> - 2015-01-02 06:11 +1100
                                Re: Devuan Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-01-01 15:23 +0000
                                  Re: Devuan Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2015-01-03 05:29 +0000
                                    Re: Devuan Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-01-03 09:14 +0000
                  Re: Devuan Stephen Chadfield <stephen@chadfield.com> - 2015-01-05 02:33 +0000
                  Re: Devuan "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2015-02-09 16:57 -0500
              Re: Devuan "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 09:08 -0400
        Re: Devuan Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2014-12-30 09:13 +0100

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#13171

Fromnotbob <notbob@nothome.com>
Date2015-01-01 18:11 +0000
Message-ID<cglgusFbig6U7@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#13169
On 2015-01-01, Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:

> It makes things harder for people knowing those other distributions.

Only knowing a buncha GUIs arbitrarily chosen by others is not
"knowing" Linux.

nb

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#13176

FromMarc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us>
Date2015-01-01 22:05 +0100
Message-ID<m84cq5$edc$1@news1.tnib.de>
In reply to#13171
notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:
>On 2015-01-01, Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
>> It makes things harder for people knowing those other distributions.
>
>Only knowing a buncha GUIs arbitrarily chosen by others is not
>"knowing" Linux.

I ain't talking about GUIs.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

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#13173

FromGrant <omg@grrr.id.au>
Date2015-01-02 06:09 +1100
Message-ID<9p6baalr81hpctebumo4gd8qv04h6fq1vf@4ax.com>
In reply to#13163
On 1 Jan 2015 16:12:14 GMT, notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

>On 2015-01-01, John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> If you want to be accurate, you can think of the saying as "If you
>> learn Slackware, you'll insist on doing everything the Slackware way
>> even when using other distributions.  And you'll bitch about it."
>
>LOL!
>
>....and this is a bad thing, how?  ;)

Way to go, notbob

Grant (Slackware user for over a decade).
>
>nb

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#13179

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2015-01-02 20:04 +0000
Message-ID<m86tk8129uc@news4.newsguy.com>
In reply to#13157
On 2015-01-01, John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:

> Keith Keller writes:
>
>> If you want to be literal, then you can think of the saying as "...if
>> you learn Slackware, you'll know most linux distros."
>
> If you want to be accurate, you can think of the saying as "If you
> learn Slackware, you'll insist on doing everything the Slackware way
> even when using other distributions.  And you'll bitch about it."

Slackware was my first Linux distro.  When I first decided to set up
a Linux machine, I went to the local bookstore and scanned all the
Linux books, and picked the one I liked best.  It happened to be by
Patrick Volkerding, and it contained a Slackware 3.5 installation disk.
But package dependency hell was what made me "bitch about it."  So on
my laptop I tried various other distributions - and a few months ago,
seduced by the siren call of apt-get, I made the switch to Debian.
The breaking point came when my Slack 13.37 box died, and I tried
to install 14.1 on a brand-new box.  Nothing I tried would get it
to recognize the Ethernet port on the motherboard (I had a lot of
trouble originally getting the old box working too).  I popped in
the Debian Jessie install disk I had running on my laptop, and it
found the port - and my Internet gateway - before it even got around
to asking me any questions.

Slackware is good for the soul - but I'm getting so tired...

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#13180

Fromnotbob <notbob@nothome.com>
Date2015-01-02 20:14 +0000
Message-ID<cgochuF45jjU4@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#13179
On 2015-01-02, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> the Debian Jessie install disk I had running on my laptop, and it
> found the port - and my Internet gateway - before it even got around
> to asking me any questions.

Nothing to brag on.  My first attemps at Linux included Caldera Linux
in the late 90's.  You would insert the Caldera iso CD, then it would dump you
in a game of tetris while it installed the entire OS without any
further input on yer part.  Who now does that?

If you want it all done for you, fine.  If you want it done to your
requirements, that requires a bit more knowledge on yer part.  That's
what make Linux so great.  Choice!  

That's also why systemd sucks.  

nb

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#13182

FromKeith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
Date2015-01-02 12:30 -0800
Message-ID<2pbjnbxfff.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
In reply to#13180
On 2015-01-02, notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

[snip]

> That's what make Linux so great.  Choice!  
>
> That's also why systemd sucks.  

Can't you choose not to use systemd, thus the origin of this thread?

--keith


-- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

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#13184

Fromnotbob <notbob@nothome.com>
Date2015-01-02 21:31 +0000
Message-ID<cgoh1aF7g0tU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#13182
On 2015-01-02, Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:

> Can't you choose not to use systemd.....

I'd like to.  If I still have that choice, I will exercise it.  But,
it looks like systemd has run roughshod over the entire Linux
landscape, with only a couple staunch holdouts.  Even then, looks like
Pat may eventually cave.  If so, it's back to BSD, for me.  UNLESS!
....Pat offers a choice in setup and/or Devuan is succesful.  8|

nb

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#13191

FromAragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid>
Date2015-01-03 08:03 +0100
Message-ID<m8847c$8sc$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#13184
On Friday 02 January 2015 22:31, notbob conveyed the following to 
comp.os.linux.misc...

> On 2015-01-02, Keith Keller
> <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
> 
>> Can't you choose not to use systemd.....
> 
> I'd like to.  If I still have that choice, I will exercise it.  But,
> it looks like systemd has run roughshod over the entire Linux
> landscape, with only a couple staunch holdouts.  Even then, looks like
> Pat may eventually cave.  If so, it's back to BSD, for me.  UNLESS!
> ....Pat offers a choice in setup and/or Devuan is succesful.  8|

I'm surprised you've never heard of Gentoo ─ or even Funtoo for that 
matter. [*]  It gives you all the choices you want.  

The default init in Gentoo is still openrc ─ systemd and upstart are 
supported ─ which is a wrapper around sysvinit and offers many of the 
things systemd considers advantageous, such as support for cgroups, 
dependency-based boot scripts and parallel boot-up execution of the init 
scripts.

If you consider Slackware educational, then Gentoo is equally 
educational.  Although binary packages do exist, you normally install 
all the software from the bare sources, but the compiling/building 
process is automated.  The documentation ─ although a big lacking in 
some respects ─ is also very good, with lots of HowTos.

Gentoo uses named runlevels rather than numbered ones, but that's just a 
convention.  It's fully compatible with traditional sysvinit runlevels.


[*] Funtoo is based upon Gentoo but focuses on more bleeding-edge
    versions of the software ─ that which the Gentoo community calls
    "~arch-masked".  Funtoo was founded and is maintained by Daniel
    Robbins, who also created Gentoo, but whose offer to return to
    Gentoo in order to sort out some ego issues (among the developers
    and Council members) and put the distro back on track was rejected
    by the Gentoo Council.  They did eventually get things settled down
    again, and so Daniel Robbins created Funtoo, which is to Gentoo what
    Debian Sid is to the current Debian Jessie.

-- 
= Aragorn =

         http://www.linuxcounter.net - registrant #223157

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#13181

FromMichael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
Date2015-01-02 15:35 -0500
Message-ID<alpine.LNX.2.02.1501021533010.24957@darkstar.example.org>
In reply to#13179
On Fri, 2 Jan 2015, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2015-01-01, John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> Keith Keller writes:
>>
>>> If you want to be literal, then you can think of the saying as "...if
>>> you learn Slackware, you'll know most linux distros."
>>
>> If you want to be accurate, you can think of the saying as "If you
>> learn Slackware, you'll insist on doing everything the Slackware way
>> even when using other distributions.  And you'll bitch about it."
>
> Slackware was my first Linux distro.  When I first decided to set up
> a Linux machine, I went to the local bookstore and scanned all the
> Linux books, and picked the one I liked best.  It happened to be by
> Patrick Volkerding, and it contained a Slackware 3.5 installation disk.
> But package dependency hell was what made me "bitch about it."  So on
> my laptop I tried various other distributions - and a few months ago,
> seduced by the siren call of apt-get, I made the switch to Debian.
> The breaking point came when my Slack 13.37 box died, and I tried
> to install 14.1 on a brand-new box.  Nothing I tried would get it
> to recognize the Ethernet port on the motherboard (I had a lot of
> trouble originally getting the old box working too).  I popped in
> the Debian Jessie install disk I had running on my laptop, and it
> found the port - and my Internet gateway - before it even got around
> to asking me any questions.
>
> Slackware is good for the soul - but I'm getting so tired...
>
I first tried Debian, because they were "so free", but I had to do a 
limited install, and all that dependency stuff was too much for a 
beginning.  Besides, their version of 'free" meant they didnt' include
Pine, and I wasn't up to installing it from some other source.

So in the week after Christmas 2000, I find among the clearance books
at the big chain bookstore "SLackware Linux for Dummies" and the two CDs 
are still in there, just a mildly ripped cover.  It came to about $15.00,
so I grabbed it.

So from my experience Debian was too complicated, Slackware is for dummies 
and easy to get going.

   Michael

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#13183

FromJohn Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com>
Date2015-01-02 14:37 -0600
Message-ID<87k314dim0.fsf@thumper.dhh.gt.org>
In reply to#13179
Charlie Gibbs writes:
> Slackware was my first Linux distro.

Mine as well, but I switched to Debian 1.1 as soon as it came out.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

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#13160

FromMarc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us>
Date2015-01-01 16:42 +0100
Message-ID<m83pu0$367$1@news1.tnib.de>
In reply to#13156
Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:
> If you want to be literal, then you can
>think of the saying as "...if you learn Slackware, you'll know most
>linux distros."  That doesn't sound quite so pithy though.

And it is wrong as well.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

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#13143

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2014-12-31 16:30 -0500
Message-ID<m81pt5$34c$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#13140
notbob <notbob@nothome.com> writes:

> On 2014-12-31, John F <j@j.ii> wrote:
>
>> Where are the config files for it? there must be some!
>
> Ah!  A linux user who is not familiar with Slackware.  Give it a try.
> All the config files you could ever desire and nary a sign of systemd
> in sight.  ;)
>
> http://www.slackware.com/

Another user who is not aware that systemd has plain text
configuration files.

Hidden away in /etc/systemd/no less.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#13145

FromMladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com>
Date2014-12-31 23:51 +0000
Message-ID<pan.2014.12.31.23.51.34@gmail.com>
In reply to#13143
On Wed, 31 Dec 2014 16:30:37 -0500, Dan Espen wrote:

> Another user who is not aware that systemd has plain text configuration
> files.
> 
> Hidden away in /etc/systemd/no less.

I know that, but I don't like systemd. It's not as well documented or as 
well known as /etc/init. I am not sure that the speed of booting is a 
goal worth sacrificing something that works flawlessly. Systemd was 
rammed down my throat, without giving me any choice. Now, that I have a 
choice, a major distribution without systemd, I will express my choice.
I'll switch to Devuan as soon as they release a stable distro.
Systemd became so pervasive only because users weren't given a choice.



-- 
Mladen Gogala
The Oracle Whisperer
http://mgogala.byethost5.com

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#13146

FromMladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com>
Date2014-12-31 23:55 +0000
Message-ID<pan.2014.12.31.23.55.23@gmail.com>
In reply to#13145
On Wed, 31 Dec 2014 23:51:34 +0000, Mladen Gogala wrote:

> Systemd became so pervasive only because users weren't given a choice.

BTW, HatRed seems to plan doing the same thing with Wayward instead of 
X11.



-- 
Mladen Gogala
The Oracle Whisperer
http://mgogala.byethost5.com

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#13147

FromKeith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
Date2014-12-31 16:49 -0800
Message-ID<16ienbx8ti.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
In reply to#13146
On 2014-12-31, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> BTW, HatRed seems to plan doing the same thing with Wayward instead of 
> X11.

It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine anything replacing X11
could be worse than X11.

--keith

-- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

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#13148

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-01-01 01:50 +0000
Message-ID<m82966$5tq$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#13147
On 01/01/15 00:49, Keith Keller wrote:
> On 2014-12-31, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> BTW, HatRed seems to plan doing the same thing with Wayward instead of
>> X11.
>
> It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine anything replacing X11
> could be worse than X11.
>

It is surely a challenge, but I am sure they are up to it....

> --keith
>


-- 
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the 
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. – Erwin Knoll

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#13150

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2014-12-31 22:03 -0500
Message-ID<m82dcb$mfp$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#13148
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 01/01/15 00:49, Keith Keller wrote:
>> On 2014-12-31, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> BTW, HatRed seems to plan doing the same thing with Wayward instead of
>>> X11.
>>
>> It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine anything replacing X11
>> could be worse than X11.
>>
>
> It is surely a challenge, but I am sure they are up to it....

Unlike systemd, which can do everything init does,
Wayland is advertised to be missing a network protocol.

You can do something like VNC, but not remote windows.

So, with Wayland, there is a REAL issue.
One that actually affects real people.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#13154

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-01-01 08:46 +0000
Message-ID<m831hr$1fv$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#13150
On 01/01/15 03:03, Dan Espen wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 01/01/15 00:49, Keith Keller wrote:
>>> On 2014-12-31, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> BTW, HatRed seems to plan doing the same thing with Wayward instead of
>>>> X11.
>>>
>>> It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine anything replacing X11
>>> could be worse than X11.
>>>
>>
>> It is surely a challenge, but I am sure they are up to it....
>
> Unlike systemd, which can do everything init does,
> Wayland is advertised to be missing a network protocol.
>
> You can do something like VNC, but not remote windows.
>
> So, with Wayland, there is a REAL issue.
> One that actually affects real people.
>
well that is not an issue in fact, its just moving the network awareness 
of the GUI up the stack a little.

I'd be delighted to ditch X - after 5 years of bug eradication in any 
alternative.

99% of the applications use less than 1% of its features.


-- 
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the 
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. – Erwin Knoll

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#13158

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2015-01-01 10:15 -0500
Message-ID<m83o9a$oh6$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#13154
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 01/01/15 03:03, Dan Espen wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 01/01/15 00:49, Keith Keller wrote:
>>>> On 2014-12-31, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, HatRed seems to plan doing the same thing with Wayward instead of
>>>>> X11.
>>>>
>>>> It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine anything replacing X11
>>>> could be worse than X11.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is surely a challenge, but I am sure they are up to it....
>>
>> Unlike systemd, which can do everything init does,
>> Wayland is advertised to be missing a network protocol.
>>
>> You can do something like VNC, but not remote windows.
>>
>> So, with Wayland, there is a REAL issue.
>> One that actually affects real people.
>>
> well that is not an issue in fact, its just moving the network
> awareness of the GUI up the stack a little.

Huh?

You are telling me having an Emacs window from work on my home system is
just the same as having a desktop with an Emacs window?

I beg to differ.

> I'd be delighted to ditch X - after 5 years of bug eradication in any
> alternative.

X11 has been working fine here.  I don't have a single issue
I'd like changed.  The only issue I ever hear the Wayland
developers claim that they are going to fix is "tearing".

I've never seen this "tearing" that they talk  about.

> 99% of the applications use less than 1% of its features.

As it should be.

If that is  supposed to justify removing a critical
feature, I can't agree.

In this case we have:

systemd vs. init - No perceptible difference.
X11 vs. Wayland - Clear difference and  lack of an important feature.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#13162

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-01-01 16:01 +0000
Message-ID<m83r0q$hnn$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#13158
On 01/01/15 15:15, Dan Espen wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 01/01/15 03:03, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 01/01/15 00:49, Keith Keller wrote:
>>>>> On 2014-12-31, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, HatRed seems to plan doing the same thing with Wayward instead of
>>>>>> X11.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine anything replacing X11
>>>>> could be worse than X11.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is surely a challenge, but I am sure they are up to it....
>>>
>>> Unlike systemd, which can do everything init does,
>>> Wayland is advertised to be missing a network protocol.
>>>
>>> You can do something like VNC, but not remote windows.
>>>
>>> So, with Wayland, there is a REAL issue.
>>> One that actually affects real people.
>>>
>> well that is not an issue in fact, its just moving the network
>> awareness of the GUI up the stack a little.
>
> Huh?
>
> You are telling me having an Emacs window from work on my home system is
> just the same as having a desktop with an Emacs window?
>

No. I am not.

> I beg to differ.

well anywone can set up a straw man to destroy.

>
>> I'd be delighted to ditch X - after 5 years of bug eradication in any
>> alternative.
>
> X11 has been working fine here.  I don't have a single issue
> I'd like changed.  The only issue I ever hear the Wayland
> developers claim that they are going to fix is "tearing".
>
> I've never seen this "tearing" that they talk  about.
>
>> 99% of the applications use less than 1% of its features.
>
> As it should be.
>
Rubbish. The art of keeping bloat is that 90% of the apps use 100% pof 
the features and the other features are moved into the apps that need them.
> If that is  supposed to justify removing a critical
> feature, I can't agree.

Straw man. Moving an uncritical feature into the few apps that need it.

>
> In this case we have:
>
> systemd vs. init - No perceptible difference.
> X11 vs. Wayland - Clear difference and  lack of an important feature.
>
Yawn.


-- 
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the 
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. – Erwin Knoll

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