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hardware upgrade comment

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  hardware upgrade comment Todd <Todd@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-06 12:59 -0700
    Re: hardware upgrade comment lew <citrustwosac@google.mailer.company.invalid> - 2014-06-07 01:28 +0000
      Re: hardware upgrade comment sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> - 2014-06-07 04:18 +0000
        Re: hardware upgrade comment lew <citrustwosac@google.mailer.company.invalid> - 2014-06-07 16:42 +0000
          Re: hardware upgrade comment Jan Pieter <jp@jp.dhs.orig> - 2014-06-09 13:23 +0200
            Re: hardware upgrade comment lew <citrustwosac@google.mailer.company.invalid> - 2014-06-09 16:22 +0000
              Re: hardware upgrade comment Jan Pieter <jp@jp.dhs.orig> - 2014-06-09 19:00 +0200
              Re: hardware upgrade comment noydb@no.way (Bruce Sinclair) - 2014-06-09 23:16 +0000
                Re: hardware upgrade comment lew <citrustwosac@google.mailer.company.invalid> - 2014-06-10 01:30 +0000
                  Re: hardware upgrade comment noydb@no.way (Bruce Sinclair) - 2014-06-10 03:42 +0000
      Re: hardware upgrade comment Todd <Todd@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-07 12:03 -0700
    Re: hardware upgrade comment faeychild <faeychild@noname.afraid.org> - 2014-06-07 11:30 +1000
    Re: hardware upgrade comment Rahul <nospam@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-11 04:21 +0000
      Re: hardware upgrade comment Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2014-06-10 21:41 -0700
        Re: hardware upgrade comment Rahul <nospam@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-11 07:36 +0000
          Re: hardware upgrade comment Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2014-06-11 07:43 -0700
            Re: hardware upgrade comment Rahul <nospam@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-11 19:32 +0000
              Re: hardware upgrade comment William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2014-06-11 20:39 +0000
                Re: hardware upgrade comment Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2014-06-11 14:28 -0700
              Re: hardware upgrade comment Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2014-06-11 14:27 -0700
      Re: hardware upgrade comment William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2014-06-11 07:44 +0000
        Re: hardware upgrade comment Baho Utot <baho-utot@invalid.com> - 2014-06-11 09:58 -0400
      Re: hardware upgrade comment Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2014-06-11 20:10 +0000

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#11208 — hardware upgrade comment

Hi All,

   I am just ranting here.  No new information to
be gained.

   Upgraded a Fedora Core 20 customer's motherboard,
processor, memory and case.  I swapped his DVD drive
and two hard drives over into the new case.  His old
machine was a Core 2 Duo.  New one is a core 3 with
a Q87 chipset.

   And, it just booted up.  Including fsck'ing both
drives, running his updates, it too me 1 hr and 6
minutes.  TOTAL!

    It just worked.  New motherboard, new chip set,
new (on board) video card, and all.  IT JUST WORKED!
The customer is tickled!

    Now, I have done this on Windows machines too.
OH HOLY CRAP the garbage and hoops you have to
jump through.  You have to do a full "in place"
reinstall of Windows, hunt down all the idiot new
drivers, reinstall all the patches (lots of luck
doing them all at once - they crash each other),
etc..

    I especially like the one where it won't let you
use the thing until you re-register it, but you
can't re-register it as the pop up block everything
else, including booting.  (I figured a work around.)

    I have said this before, the only reason people
use Windows is the humongous off the shelf availability
of standardized software.   (Now you know, you must use
Quick Books and Office, or it will stunt your growth!)

    I will get off my soap box now.

-T

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Computers are like air conditioners.
They malfunction when you open windows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#11211

On 2014-06-06, Todd <Todd@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>    I am just ranting here.  No new information to
> be gained.
>
>    Upgraded a Fedora Core 20 customer's motherboard,
> processor, memory and case.  I swapped his DVD drive
> and two hard drives over into the new case.  His old
> machine was a Core 2 Duo.  New one is a core 3 with
> a Q87 chipset.
>
>    And, it just booted up.  Including fsck'ing both
> drives, running his updates, it too me 1 hr and 6
> minutes.  TOTAL!
>
>     It just worked.  New motherboard, new chip set,
> new (on board) video card, and all.  IT JUST WORKED!
> The customer is tickled!
>
>     Now, I have done this on Windows machines too.
> OH HOLY CRAP the garbage and hoops you have to
> jump through.  You have to do a full "in place"
> reinstall of Windows, hunt down all the idiot new
> drivers, reinstall all the patches (lots of luck
> doing them all at once - they crash each other),
> etc..
>
>     I especially like the one where it won't let you
> use the thing until you re-register it, but you
> can't re-register it as the pop up block everything
> else, including booting.  (I figured a work around.)
>
>     I have said this before, the only reason people
> use Windows is the humongous off the shelf availability
> of standardized software.   (Now you know, you must use
> Quick Books and Office, or it will stunt your growth!)
>
>     I will get off my soap box now.
>
> -T
>

No idea what/how you did the mb swap &/or new case.  I've just
changed the mb & use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to
win7 now.  Never had a problem with booting/running windows;
did have to re-register/activate because win checks the hardware
for differences & the biggest point change is the check for the nic.
Didn't matter if the cpu was also changed because of the newer
mb sine the biggest point getter is the nic.

The old windows newsgroups had a "howto" count the hardware
points that would require a registering with microsoft as how many
points is supposed to indicate a different set of hardware (m$ thinks
that this is to prevent "cheating").

Haven't tried doing a mb swap with win8 & probably won't; may not
even do it with win9 if it is subscription based.

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#11213

On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:28:25 +0000, lew wrote:


> No idea what/how you did the mb swap &/or new case.  I've just changed
> the mb & use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to win7 now.  Never
> had a problem with booting/running windows;
> did have to re-register/activate because win checks the hardware for
> differences & the biggest point change is the check for the nic. Didn't
> matter if the cpu was also changed because of the newer mb sine the
> biggest point getter is the nic.
> 
> The old windows newsgroups had a "howto" count the hardware points that
> would require a registering with microsoft as how many points is
> supposed to indicate a different set of hardware (m$ thinks that this is
> to prevent "cheating").
> 
> Haven't tried doing a mb swap with win8 & probably won't; may not even
> do it with win9 if it is subscription based.

You are still using a less than 2gig HDD?  

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#11216

On 2014-06-07, sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:28:25 +0000, lew wrote:
>
>
>> No idea what/how you did the mb swap &/or new case.  I've just changed
>> the mb & use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to win7 now.  Never
>> had a problem with booting/running windows;
>> did have to re-register/activate because win checks the hardware for
>> differences & the biggest point change is the check for the nic. Didn't
>> matter if the cpu was also changed because of the newer mb sine the
>> biggest point getter is the nic.
>> 
>> The old windows newsgroups had a "howto" count the hardware points that
>> would require a registering with microsoft as how many points is
>> supposed to indicate a different set of hardware (m$ thinks that this is
>> to prevent "cheating").
>> 
>> Haven't tried doing a mb swap with win8 & probably won't; may not even
>> do it with win9 if it is subscription based.
>
> You are still using a less than 2gig HDD?  

?????????  What does the 2gig hdd have to do with it with the mb swap?

The just swap the mb works with the 3 500 gig hdd without any problems.
Only encountered the hdd capacity "problem" was with the 1st time I
got  a large drive BUT the the WD hdd came with a hdd controller to
get around the window limitation on size; used the WD controller &
didn't have a problem in swapping mb with the large hdd later.

Needless to say that one needs to configure the bios prior to booting
with the new mb......... 

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#11230

On 06/07/2014 06:42 PM, lew wrote:
> On 2014-06-07, sctvguy1<sctvguy1@invalid.net>  wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:28:25 +0000, lew wrote:
>>
>>
>>> No idea what/how you did the mb swap&/or new case.  I've just changed
>>> the mb&  use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to win7 now.  Never
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> had a problem with booting/running windows;
>>> did have to re-register/activate because win checks the hardware for
>>> differences&  the biggest point change is the check for the nic. Didn't
>>> matter if the cpu was also changed because of the newer mb sine the
>>> biggest point getter is the nic.
>>>
>>> The old windows newsgroups had a "howto" count the hardware points that
>>> would require a registering with microsoft as how many points is
>>> supposed to indicate a different set of hardware (m$ thinks that this is
>>> to prevent "cheating").
>>>
>>> Haven't tried doing a mb swap with win8&  probably won't; may not even
>>> do it with win9 if it is subscription based.
>>
>> You are still using a less than 2gig HDD?
>
> ?????????  What does the 2gig hdd have to do with it with the mb swap?

You state: 'use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to win7 now'
I/m wondering how you manage win7 on such a small hdd.

Jan Pieter.

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#11234

On 2014-06-09, Jan Pieter <jp@jp.dhs.orig> wrote:
> On 06/07/2014 06:42 PM, lew wrote:
>> On 2014-06-07, sctvguy1<sctvguy1@invalid.net>  wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:28:25 +0000, lew wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> No idea what/how you did the mb swap&/or new case.  I've just changed
>>>> the mb&  use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to win7 now.  Never
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> had a problem with booting/running windows;
>>>> did have to re-register/activate because win checks the hardware for
>>>> differences&  the biggest point change is the check for the nic. Didn't
>>>> matter if the cpu was also changed because of the newer mb sine the
>>>> biggest point getter is the nic.
>>>>
>>>> The old windows newsgroups had a "howto" count the hardware points that
>>>> would require a registering with microsoft as how many points is
>>>> supposed to indicate a different set of hardware (m$ thinks that this is
>>>> to prevent "cheating").
>>>>
>>>> Haven't tried doing a mb swap with win8&  probably won't; may not even
>>>> do it with win9 if it is subscription based.
>>>
>>> You are still using a less than 2gig HDD?
>>
>> ?????????  What does the 2gig hdd have to do with it with the mb swap?
>
> You state: 'use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to win7 now'
> I/m wondering how you manage win7 on such a small hdd.
>
> Jan Pieter.

Think I should have added "method" where when the mb is swapped,
the hdd remained the same as it was just changing the cable
connections.  The method is quite different than doing a "clone"
method to another hdd which is still a different hdd even if the boot
partition is the "same".

I've noticed tho, that programmers & some people on newsgroups are
quite "nit picking" of others & object to being the object of being the
"nit picked" one when statements are being interpreted literally.

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#11235

On 06/09/2014 06:22 PM, lew wrote:
> On 2014-06-09, Jan Pieter<jp@jp.dhs.orig>  wrote:
>> On 06/07/2014 06:42 PM, lew wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-07, sctvguy1<sctvguy1@invalid.net>   wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:28:25 +0000, lew wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> No idea what/how you did the mb swap&/or new case.  I've just changed
>>>>> the mb&   use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to win7 now.  Never
>>                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>> had a problem with booting/running windows;
>>>>> did have to re-register/activate because win checks the hardware for
>>>>> differences&   the biggest point change is the check for the nic. Didn't
>>>>> matter if the cpu was also changed because of the newer mb sine the
>>>>> biggest point getter is the nic.
>>>>>
>>>>> The old windows newsgroups had a "howto" count the hardware points that
>>>>> would require a registering with microsoft as how many points is
>>>>> supposed to indicate a different set of hardware (m$ thinks that this is
>>>>> to prevent "cheating").
>>>>>
>>>>> Haven't tried doing a mb swap with win8&   probably won't; may not even
>>>>> do it with win9 if it is subscription based.
>>>>
>>>> You are still using a less than 2gig HDD?
>>>
>>> ?????????  What does the 2gig hdd have to do with it with the mb swap?
>>
>> You state: 'use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to win7 now'
>> I/m wondering how you manage win7 on such a small hdd.
>>
>> Jan Pieter.
>
> Think I should have added "method" where when the mb is swapped,
> the hdd remained the same as it was just changing the cable
> connections.  The method is quite different than doing a "clone"
> method to another hdd which is still a different hdd even if the boot
> partition is the "same".
>
> I've noticed tho, that programmers&  some people on newsgroups are
> quite "nit picking" of others&  object to being the object of being the
> "nit picked" one when statements are being interpreted literally.

I was not nitpicking, the info you give must be correct. If it is
not, one can just say 'I stand corrected', instead of giving more
incorrect info.

Jan Pieter.

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#11242

In article <ln4n0k$5ec$1@dont-email.me>, lew <citrustwosac@google.mailer.company.invalid> wrote:
(snip)

>I've noticed tho, that programmers & some people on newsgroups are
>quite "nit picking" of others & object to being the object of being the
>"nit picked" one when statements are being interpreted literally.

And if we were sitting in a room talking, we could quickly have checked what 
you said for correct meaning. :)

Sadly, when all we have to go on are the typed words here, each and every one 
becomes important. Type what you mean ... and don't be surprised if you 
regularly fail (... when I reread the above, I had typos in 6 of the words 
before the "(" for example :) ). Meaning takes a little longer when most of 
the communication cues are missing. :)

The alternative to checking for meaning, is usually ASS U ME ing. That way 
lies madness. :) :)

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#11243

On 2014-06-09, Bruce Sinclair <noydb@no.way> wrote:
> In article <ln4n0k$5ec$1@dont-email.me>, lew <citrustwosac@google.mailer.company.invalid> wrote:
> (snip)
>
>>I've noticed tho, that programmers & some people on newsgroups are
>>quite "nit picking" of others & object to being the object of being the
>>"nit picked" one when statements are being interpreted literally.
>
> And if we were sitting in a room talking, we could quickly have checked what 
> you said for correct meaning. :)
>
> Sadly, when all we have to go on are the typed words here, each and every one 
> becomes important. Type what you mean ... and don't be surprised if you 
> regularly fail (... when I reread the above, I had typos in 6 of the words 
> before the "(" for example :) ). Meaning takes a little longer when most of 
> the communication cues are missing. :)
>
> The alternative to checking for meaning, is usually ASS U ME ing. That way 
> lies madness. :) :)
>
>
In the years I've used the newsgroups, it seems to me that typos &
incorrect statements was a norm.  It is even worst when using
the mobile devices as meanings to abbreviations conflict & newer
meanings are created as well as spelling of words.

I do recall that apple claimed that "all we need" is to use icons; the
point & click will do everything one wanted which some have taken
it to also mean "spelling" & meanings.  Isn't this "creative writing"?

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#11244

In article <ln5n31$j9a$1@dont-email.me>, lew <citrustwosac@google.mailer.company.invalid> wrote:
>On 2014-06-09, Bruce Sinclair <noydb@no.way> wrote:
>> In article <ln4n0k$5ec$1@dont-email.me>, lew
> <citrustwosac@google.mailer.company.invalid> wrote:
>> (snip)
>>
>>>I've noticed tho, that programmers & some people on newsgroups are
>>>quite "nit picking" of others & object to being the object of being the
>>>"nit picked" one when statements are being interpreted literally.
>>
>> And if we were sitting in a room talking, we could quickly have checked what 
>> you said for correct meaning. :)
>>
>> Sadly, when all we have to go on are the typed words here, each and every one
> 
>> becomes important. Type what you mean ... and don't be surprised if you 
>> regularly fail (... when I reread the above, I had typos in 6 of the words 
>> before the "(" for example :) ). Meaning takes a little longer when most of 
>> the communication cues are missing. :)
>>
>> The alternative to checking for meaning, is usually ASS U ME ing. That way 
>> lies madness. :) :)
>>
>>
>In the years I've used the newsgroups, it seems to me that typos &
>incorrect statements was a norm.  It is even worst when using
>the mobile devices as meanings to abbreviations conflict & newer
>meanings are created as well as spelling of words.
>
>I do recall that apple claimed that "all we need" is to use icons; the
>point & click will do everything one wanted which some have taken
>it to also mean "spelling" & meanings.  Isn't this "creative writing"?

:) Creative it probably is. Writing ? ... almost certainly not (at least if we 
ASSUME that we are trying to commincate. :)

While a picture might be worth a thousand words, I suggest those words might 
be different depending on who is looking at it. :)

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#11218

On 06/06/2014 06:28 PM, lew wrote:
> On 2014-06-06, Todd <Todd@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>>     I am just ranting here.  No new information to
>> be gained.
>>
>>     Upgraded a Fedora Core 20 customer's motherboard,
>> processor, memory and case.  I swapped his DVD drive
>> and two hard drives over into the new case.  His old
>> machine was a Core 2 Duo.  New one is a core 3 with
>> a Q87 chipset.
>>
>>     And, it just booted up.  Including fsck'ing both
>> drives, running his updates, it too me 1 hr and 6
>> minutes.  TOTAL!
>>
>>      It just worked.  New motherboard, new chip set,
>> new (on board) video card, and all.  IT JUST WORKED!
>> The customer is tickled!
>>
>>      Now, I have done this on Windows machines too.
>> OH HOLY CRAP the garbage and hoops you have to
>> jump through.  You have to do a full "in place"
>> reinstall of Windows, hunt down all the idiot new
>> drivers, reinstall all the patches (lots of luck
>> doing them all at once - they crash each other),
>> etc..
>>
>>      I especially like the one where it won't let you
>> use the thing until you re-register it, but you
>> can't re-register it as the pop up block everything
>> else, including booting.  (I figured a work around.)
>>
>>      I have said this before, the only reason people
>> use Windows is the humongous off the shelf availability
>> of standardized software.   (Now you know, you must use
>> Quick Books and Office, or it will stunt your growth!)
>>
>>      I will get off my soap box now.
>>
>> -T
>>
>
> No idea what/how you did the mb swap &/or new case.  I've just
> changed the mb & use the same hdd since the 3.1 days thru to
> win7 now.  Never had a problem with booting/running windows;
> did have to re-register/activate because win checks the hardware
> for differences & the biggest point change is the check for the nic.
> Didn't matter if the cpu was also changed because of the newer
> mb sine the biggest point getter is the nic.
>
> The old windows newsgroups had a "howto" count the hardware
> points that would require a registering with microsoft as how many
> points is supposed to indicate a different set of hardware (m$ thinks
> that this is to prevent "cheating").
>
> Haven't tried doing a mb swap with win8 & probably won't; may not
> even do it with win9 if it is subscription based.
>

Hi Lew,

I am surprised you haven't stumbled on this before.

My usual job is to take an old clunker with $$$$$ of
untold intellectual property and clone the entire
*mess* over to a totally new computer.  That means
everything.  What the customer gets back is exactly
what he had before, only a ton faster and much more
capacity.

What I tell my customers is that the good part is
that you get back exactly what you had before.  The
bad part is that you get back exactly what you had
before.

Bearing in mind that to mess up Linux, you have to
work at it, to mess up Windows all you have to do
is work on it.  Most customers just what to start
over.  Some need their stuff back exactly the way
they had it.

M$ gets pissed at this and won't let you past the
"you got to register this" prompt, but as I said,
I known how to work around it.  (Anyone ping me if
you need the details.)

The point of my ranting was that this complete
cluster of bad engineering and terrible quality
doesn't happen in Linux.

This last Fedora Core 20 upgrade, I almost started
giggling in front of the customer.  Windows is
such crap, but when you only have three customers
on it, you have to swim in the Windows waters too.
I don't like it, but I have to eat. We must
have our Quick Books and our Office!  "What??
Learn something new and be different from
others?!?!?!?"   Getting a Windows users off of
Windows is like getting a dope addict off of
crack cocaine.

-T

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
in a couple slices of baloney
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#11212

Todd wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
>    I am just ranting here.  No new information to
> be gained.
> 
>    Upgraded a Fedora Core 20 customer's motherboard,
> processor, memory and case.  I swapped his DVD drive
> and two hard drives over into the new case.  His old
> machine was a Core 2 Duo.  New one is a core 3 with
> a Q87 chipset.
> 
>    And, it just booted up.  Including fsck'ing both
> drives, running his updates, it too me 1 hr and 6



I have new box which I was going to tackle this weekend.
i7-4790  GA-97M- D3H 4Gig ram Burner Nvidea card

Nothing earth shattering

Downloaded and burned the ISO for Mageia 4 - 64

Then I caught a flu and I feel like shit. The prospect of crawling around on 
the floor swapping over the boxes fills me an immense disinterest. Let alone 
tackle a potentially perilous install.

It is going to have to wait... sometime

-- 
faeychild
Running kde on 3.12.20-server-1.mga4 kernel.
Mageia release 4 (Official) for i586

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#11257

Todd <Todd@invalid.invalid> wrote in news:lmt6i6$ebv$1@dont-email.me:

>    I am just ranting here.  No new information to
> be gained.
> 
>    Upgraded a Fedora Core 20 customer's motherboard,
> 

While in rant mode, in my new Fedora 20 I cannot recognize grub, nor 
/var/log/messages nor initd nor udev. 

What's up with all this new dracut / grub2 / journalctl / systemd business?  
My last system was a RHEL / CentOS circa. 2010 & these seem major changes. 

Do people like this new tooling? Is there any easy way to fall back to the 
old ways? 

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#11258

On 2014-06-11, Rahul <nospam@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> While in rant mode, in my new Fedora 20 I cannot recognize grub, nor 
> /var/log/messages nor initd nor udev. 
>
> What's up with all this new dracut / grub2 / journalctl / systemd business?  

I believe dracut has been around for a while.  It's definitely in CentOS
6.

GRUB2 itself has been around for a while.  And it's just a new
bootloader to learn, just like we learned GRUB after distros moved
from LILO.

journalctl seems to be a component of systemd.

systemd is indeed a new and significant change.  There has been
controversy about it, for example:

http://www.muktware.com/2014/04/linus-torvalds-happy-systemd-author-kay-sievers/25151

From what I've read, systemd is allegedly backwards-compatible with
Upstart init (which is what's currently in CentOS 6).  If that's the
case, then systemd may simply be a new style to learn.  OTOH if it's
really ripping out a lot then it may be more frustrating.

On the third hand, enough hatred of systemd would probably spur a CentOS
anti-systemd SIG.  :)

--keith


-- 
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

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#11259

Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote in 
news:683l6bxn7e.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us:

> I believe dracut has been around for a while.  It's definitely in CentOS
> 6.
>

Ah! My bad then. I never had to deal with the beast. 


> GRUB2 itself has been around for a while.  And it's just a new
> bootloader to learn, just like we learned GRUB after distros moved
> from LILO.

Fine. But did you really feel a f

> 
> journalctl seems to be a component of systemd.
> 
> systemd is indeed a new and significant change.  There has been
> controversy about it, for example:
> 

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#11262

On 2014-06-11, Rahul <nospam@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> GRUB2 itself has been around for a while.  And it's just a new
>> bootloader to learn, just like we learned GRUB after distros moved
>> from LILO.
>
> Fine. But did you really feel a f

No, I didn't feel an 'f'.  :)

Sure, I was a little concerned about moving from LILO to GRUB.  But when
I tried it and it didn't cause any problems I just did it.  I am trying
to have the same attitude with systemd: I am going to try it before I
say "yech".  And if I do say "yech", I'll make sure I know why.

--keith

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#11264

Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote in 
news:sh6m6bxnml.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us:

> No, I didn't feel an 'f'.  :)

Damn my fast fingers. :)


> Sure, I was a little concerned about moving from LILO to GRUB.  But when
> I tried it and it didn't cause any problems I just did it.  I am trying
> to have the same attitude with systemd: I am going to try it before I
> say "yech".  And if I do say "yech", I'll make sure I know why.

Yes, there's that. OTOH, there's some things common to systemd / grub2 etc. 
that makes me loathe them: 

(1) They all look like solutions in search of a problem. I really wasn't 
feeling a functionality constraint in initd, grub, syslog etc. Do I really 
care if the system boots a tiny bit faster if at all. 

(2) Take syslog. Enhancements that rsyslog offered I'm far more receptive 
to. The transition was seamless, the external interface was more or less 
preserved. The alternative was lightweight and only improved upon the 
predecessor in small ways where needed. 

(3) As opposed to that most of this systemd stuff seems bloated. Those 
settings files and scripts are a monstroiety. They seem to be straying away 
from the great Linux philosophy of having simple, easy to use files & short  
command names etc. systemd seems to be adding layers to ostinsebly hide 
complexity but which in fact makes dealing with the system worse. 

Yes, try it but I feel very disinclined to see any good in them. 

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#11266

On 2014-06-11, Rahul <nospam@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote in 
> news:sh6m6bxnml.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us:
>
>> No, I didn't feel an 'f'.  :)
>
> Damn my fast fingers. :)
>
>
>> Sure, I was a little concerned about moving from LILO to GRUB.  But when
>> I tried it and it didn't cause any problems I just did it.  I am trying
>> to have the same attitude with systemd: I am going to try it before I
>> say "yech".  And if I do say "yech", I'll make sure I know why.
>
> Yes, there's that. OTOH, there's some things common to systemd / grub2 etc. 
> that makes me loathe them: 
>
> (1) They all look like solutions in search of a problem. I really wasn't 
> feeling a functionality constraint in initd, grub, syslog etc. Do I really 
> care if the system boots a tiny bit faster if at all. 

Actually systemd looks like a "solution" looking for problems to create. 
It is obscure. It is cumbersome. It makes altering things hard. 
The log files are databases, which means that unless  you have a
database (journalctl) reader around, they are impossible to read. 
It demands that other things comply with it, rather than the other way
around (eg the demand that /usr and all its tree be mounted on boot).

I have found myself at the pointy end of too many boot crashes. 


>
> (2) Take syslog. Enhancements that rsyslog offered I'm far more receptive 
> to. The transition was seamless, the external interface was more or less 
> preserved. The alternative was lightweight and only improved upon the 
> predecessor in small ways where needed. 
>
> (3) As opposed to that most of this systemd stuff seems bloated. Those 
> settings files and scripts are a monstroiety. They seem to be straying away 

Many are not compiled programs rather than scripts. 

> from the great Linux philosophy of having simple, easy to use files & short  
> command names etc. systemd seems to be adding layers to ostinsebly hide 
> complexity but which in fact makes dealing with the system worse. 
>
> Yes, try it but I feel very disinclined to see any good in them. 

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#11269

On 2014-06-11, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
> It demands that other things comply with it, rather than the other way
> around (eg the demand that /usr and all its tree be mounted on boot).

...thus the flame war between Linus and Kay that I posted earlier.

--keith


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#11267

On 2014-06-11, Rahul <nospam@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> Yes, there's that. OTOH, there's some things common to systemd / grub2 etc. 
> that makes me loathe them: 
>
> (1) They all look like solutions in search of a problem.

Didn't GRUB deal with EFI and a bunch of other features that LILO didn't
have?

At any rate, the problem space that systemd claims to care about is
containers.  If I am providing some service, and need to spin up ten
instances of it (for whatever purpose) in separate containers, I need
the startup process to be super fast, so that my services are ready
right away.  Based on their claims, I don't think systemd is really
meant to benefit desktop or laptop users, or users who otherwise aren't
starting up and tearing down large numbers of containers.

> (3) As opposed to that most of this systemd stuff seems bloated.

Yes, at first glance it seems bloated, but without actually using it I'm
reluctant to say it *is* bloated.  (And "bloat" isn't necessarily the
only reason not to use something, or Apache httpd would have died a long
time ago.)

--keith



Those 
> settings files and scripts are a monstroiety. They seem to be straying away 
> from the great Linux philosophy of having simple, easy to use files & short  
> command names etc. systemd seems to be adding layers to ostinsebly hide 
> complexity but which in fact makes dealing with the system worse. 
>
> Yes, try it but I feel very disinclined to see any good in them. 


-- 
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(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
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