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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Started byLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
First post2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Last post2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 284 — 24 participants

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Contents

  Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 02:13 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:50 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:26 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:42 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:14 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:07 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:20 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:04 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 01:13 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:32 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:41 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 12:45 +0200
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:24 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:16 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:53 +0200
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 06:02 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:26 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 06:42 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:41 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 06:39 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:22 -0400
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:54 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:19 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:40 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:52 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:47 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-17 23:29 +0200
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 05:29 +0000
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:07 +0100
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:26 +0100
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                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:40 +0100
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                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:39 +0100
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      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:16 +0100
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          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:04 +0100
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              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:03 +0100
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                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-17 01:07 -0400
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:28 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:35 +0000
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    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 11:44 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:14 +0000
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:10 +0000
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                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
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#94166

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Message-ID<11b2dfs$140nj$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94165
On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
[..]
> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
> 
> No theory required

A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.

No theory required.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94176

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
Message-ID<11b2eks$11pis$28@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94166
On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> [..]
>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>
>> No theory required
> 
> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
> 
> No theory required.
> 
And most of them are writing websites at 18

This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
counterproductive.

I remember talking to Gary Moore, the late Irish blues guitarist, I was 
a sound engineer of sorts, and asking him how he set up his amplifiers 
and guitars 'I just fiddle with the knobs and switches till I find a 
sound I like, and then forget about it'

I remember an interview in 'studio sound' when another guitarist was 
asked by he ran his loudspeakers with the drive units exposed. Was it a 
special sound he was after?
"No", he replied, "it's so that when a unit fails I can kick it in on 
stage and stop it buzzing".

Or the famous Murray Walker FI commentator sychpohantically asking Alan 
Jones, the Australian racing drive "How important rear tyres were in the 
race"

A lead in no Australian could resist:
"Well Murray, they do play a big part in stopping the rear of the car 
dragging along the road"




-- 
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and 
higher education positively fortifies it."

    - Stephen Vizinczey

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#94181

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
Message-ID<11b2ggj$15dit$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94176
On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> [..]
>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>
>>> No theory required
>>
>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>
>> No theory required.
>>
> And most of them are writing websites at 18

Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-). As for 
websites, I doubt that. Especially not the ones who use Copilot at age 15.

> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
> counterproductive.

I think the same has been said about computer science and writing 
software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on 
theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how they 
fixed it (or "fixed it").


-- 
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Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94194

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
Message-ID<11b2ja9$11pis$39@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94181
On 18/10/2026 14:10, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> [..]
>>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>>
>>>> No theory required
>>>
>>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>>
>>> No theory required.
>>>
>> And most of them are writing websites at 18
> 
> Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-).

Arent they?

Pretty sure in my time they were.
> As for 
> websites, I doubt that. Especially not the ones who use Copilot at age 15.
> 
>> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
>> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
>> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
>> counterproductive.
> 
> I think the same has been said about computer science and writing 
> software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on 
> theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how they 
> fixed it (or "fixed it").
> 
Exactly. Theory is an aid, a tool, It is not *fundamental* to the 
practice of anything creative - be it making music.  painting a picture. 
building a house, writing software .

Metaphysics shows theory in the correct context that nearly all 
'educated' people simply do not understand. It is not Truth. It is an ad 
hoc model that *works*, and that is ultimately ALL that it is.

The Truth of a theory is indecidable, Only, under special conditions, 
it's falsity.

You can have (and the Left does) as many invisible undetectable fairies 
at the bottom of your garden who only have an effect because you 
*believe they are there* as you like.


-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

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#94196

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
Message-ID<11b2jl1$16jae$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94194
On 18/10/2026 15:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:10, John Bokma wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

[..]

>> Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-).
> 
> Arent they?

I wouldn't call it tunes :=D (Both my children had mandatory lessons at 
school. The youngest now actually plays music on bass guitar and 
acoustic guitar).

[..]

>> I think the same has been said about computer science and writing 
>> software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on 
>> theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how 
>> they fixed it (or "fixed it").
>>
> Exactly. Theory is an aid, a tool, It is not *fundamental* to the 
> practice of anything creative - be it making music.  painting a picture. 
> building a house, writing software .

Self-taught people who actually can do things are rare. Why we call them 
often artists ;-).

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94190

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
Message-ID<seueqmxlk7.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#94176
On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> [..]
>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>
>>> No theory required
>>
>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>
>> No theory required.
>>
> And most of them are writing websites at 18
> 
> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
> counterproductive.

The theory is used even without formally knowing it.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#94201

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
Message-ID<6ad4d64e$0$11445$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#94190
Le 18-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>
> The theory is used even without formally knowing it.

Yes. That's what I said about the Beatles. Another example, Metallica,
the singer said often that theory was bad. Until he learned it and later
said he was a foul to refuse theory. And without the guitarist, who knew
a lot about musical theory, who has improved the songs they wouldn't have
been as well known as what they are.

To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs
meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94225

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
Message-ID<11b376n$1dsuc$8@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94201
On 18/10/2026 15:23, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs
> meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it.
Unfounded assertion. No proof required
-- 
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale 
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

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#94277

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
Message-ID<njlfkaFei39U47@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94225
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 20:37:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 18/10/2026 15:23, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs
>> meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it.
> Unfounded assertion. No proof required

Proof of point : ABBA

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#94218

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Message-ID<11b35ll$1dsuc$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94190
On 18/10/2026 14:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> [..]
>>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>>
>>>> No theory required
>>>
>>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>>
>>> No theory required.
>>>
>> And most of them are writing websites at 18
>>
>> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
>> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
>> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
>> counterproductive.
> 
> The theory is used even without formally knowing it.
> 
> 
Weaselly bollox

If you dont know it you cant use it


-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94234

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
Message-ID<6nkfqmxatr.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#94218
On 2026-10-18 21:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>>>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> [..]
>>>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in 
>>>>> some fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>>>
>>>>> No theory required
>>>>
>>>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>>>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>>>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>>>
>>>> No theory required.
>>>>
>>> And most of them are writing websites at 18
>>>
>>> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
>>> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
>>> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
>>> counterproductive.
>>
>> The theory is used even without formally knowing it.
>>
>>
> Weaselly bollox
> 
> If you dont know it you cant use it


LOL!

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#94180

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
Message-ID<6ad4c2f5$0$11429$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#94166
Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :
> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> [..]
>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>> 
>> No theory required
>
> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>
> No theory required.

Well, I know people who use greatly AI. I saw the some prompts to create
really good things: they are not easy. Maybe one day it will suffice to
tell an AI to read one mind and create what's expected. But that day is
not today.

I let The Blind Natural Philosopher (Yes, I know, there are some morons
with whom I don't want to argue, so the insult isn't mean to improve
arguing with him) quote to show I know the context and the way you mean
it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can
replace an experienced programmer.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94182

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
Message-ID<11b2gjt$15dit$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94180
On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

[..]
> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can
> replace an experienced programmer.

I do believe that.

-- 
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#94185

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
Message-ID<6ad4c90c$0$7096$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#94182
Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :
> On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
> [..]
>> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can
>> replace an experienced programmer.
>
> I do believe that.

Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every
edge case is broken.

I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product
and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the
report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge
mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered.

So, if you have a need at home, it can help. But a real production
product in a company would only jeopardise its IS. It's really not ready.
In a company, you have security issues and a kid without understanding
can only destroy the company.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94189

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
Message-ID<11b2hvm$15v8v$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94185
On 18/10/2026 15:26, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :
>> On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>>> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can
>>> replace an experienced programmer.
>>
>> I do believe that.
> 
> Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every
> edge case is broken.

Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI?

> I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product
> and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the
> report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge
> mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered.

A year ago I tried Claude (if I recall correctly) to find a solution to 
sorting a grid by column in Wx Perl. It came up with a short answer 
which involved a call to a non-existing Wx function to sort the column.

That was a year ago.

About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up 
again). And AI came up with a correct implementation.

A lot has changed in less than a year.

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#94195

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
Message-ID<6ad4d1d2$0$28069$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#94189
Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :
> On 18/10/2026 15:26, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :
>>> On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>>
>>> [..]
>>>> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can
>>>> replace an experienced programmer.
>>>
>>> I do believe that.
>> 
>> Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every
>> edge case is broken.
>
> Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI?

No. I see the results and I know people who are using AI with good
results. The fact is that AI that I'm fed with are prompted by people
believing they can use AI better than an experience guy (which is what I
mean by a kid) and the results are shit. Mostly in areas, like
translation or documentation, in which AI can be great. But for the
result to be great, the guy using AI must know what he does.

>> I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product
>> and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the
>> report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge
>> mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered.
>
> A year ago I tried Claude (if I recall correctly) to find a solution to 
> sorting a grid by column in Wx Perl. It came up with a short answer 
> which involved a call to a non-existing Wx function to sort the column.
>
> That was a year ago.
>
> About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up 
> again). And AI came up with a correct implementation.

There's a huge difference between changing a program and creating a long
program from scratch. And there is a huge difference between creating a
two lines prompt to create a very long program and creating a very long
program with a lot of feed back to the prompt. Because the kid can't
know how to get the good feed back.

By a kid, I don't mean an 18 years old who spent all his spare time
learning about CS and AI who could have a knowledge close to an
experienced programmer. I mean a normal kid. At the University, I knew
one or two students who had more knowledge than some teachers. They are
not what I'm calling a kid.

So when you ask me if I tried it, it doesn't matter because if I'm not a
programmer, I worked with enough programmers to know what to look for
and how to direct AI. Which a kid couldn't do.

Not so long ago a medic asked me if I wasn't afraid of AI for my job.
But the fact is that my job was already challenged since decades by
Indians guy who are cheaper.

So don't ask me to try it to see if it could replace a kid because I'm
not an un-experienced kid. At work I don't program. At home, when I do
some scripts, it's for fun, so using AI would only remove the fun. So,
no, I don't use AI. That doesn't mean I don't know what AI is and that
doesn't mean I don't know what AI can do. And I have worked with kids
which need to be directed to understand the difference between the
theoretical concepts they learned at school and the real life programs
with everything coming with them.

> A lot has changed in less than a year.

Yes, I know that and I'm not challenging that.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94202

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-18 16:24 +0200
Message-ID<11b2kqr$17273$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94195
On 18/10/2026 16:04, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :

[..]

>> Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI?
> 
> No. I see the results and I know people who are using AI with good
> results. The fact is that AI that I'm fed with are prompted by people
> believing they can use AI better than an experience guy (which is what I
> mean by a kid) and the results are shit. Mostly in areas, like
> translation or documentation, in which AI can be great. But for the
> result to be great, the guy using AI must know what he does.

In my experience this is less and less the case. AI has improved with 
giant steps in less than a year.
[..]
>> About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up
>> again). And AI came up with a correct implementation.
> 
> There's a huge difference between changing a program and creating a long
> program from scratch.
As long as you guide the AI it will keep coming up with code that works. 
If it doesn't work ask it to fix it.

>. And there is a huge difference between creating a
> two lines prompt to create a very long program and creating a very long
> program with a lot of feed back to the prompt. Because the kid can't
> know how to get the good feed back.

People are writing instructions for AI that one can (re)use. Such 
instructions make it possible to keep the human prompts short as they 
become part of a prompt. One can even instruct AI to write these 
instructions (/init). I often start my prompt with "As a professional 
Perl programmer" or "As a professional Python programmer". ;-)
> By a kid, I don't mean an 18 years old who spent all his spare time
> learning about CS and AI who could have a knowledge close to an
> experienced programmer.

Me, neither.

> So don't ask me to try it to see if it could replace a kid because I'm
> not an un-experienced kid. At work I don't program. At home, when I do
> some scripts, it's for fun, 

 From an earlier post I came to understand that you struggle with Python.

> so using AI would only remove the fun. So,

In my experience it doesn't. It's like having a co-worker who doesn't 
get tired with helping out. Or doesn't act condescending. Code reviews 
are fun, and explanations are excellent.

> no, I don't use AI. That doesn't mean I don't know what AI is and that
> doesn't mean I don't know what AI can do.

I think it does. Like I said, it has changed, a lot, in just a year. And 
next month it will be better.

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#94193

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
Message-ID<11b2iqn$11pis$38@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94180
On 18/10/2026 14:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :
>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> [..]
>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some
>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>
>>> No theory required
>>
>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>
>> No theory required.
> 
> Well, I know people who use greatly AI. I saw the some prompts to create
> really good things: they are not easy. Maybe one day it will suffice to
> tell an AI to read one mind and create what's expected. But that day is
> not today.
> 
> I let The Blind Natural Philosopher (Yes, I know, there are some morons
> with whom I don't want to argue, so the insult isn't mean to improve
> arguing with him) quote to show I know the context and the way you mean
> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can
> replace an experienced programmer.
> 
There is a a difference between an experienced programmer and a good one.

AI is likely better than a CS graduate who thinks he has 'special 
knowledge' and can insult intelligence that gains a view from experience 
rather than out of a book


-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

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#94241

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
Message-ID<njkntoFei39U37@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94165
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 13:13:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some
> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.

Better he should pick up a tin whistle or Irish flute. Diatonic 
instruments have an advantage plus the fingering is a lot easier.

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#94123

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
Message-ID<6ad493c1$0$10324$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#94077
Le 17-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
> On 2026-10-17 10:52, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> 
>> If you take the Beatles, one of the biggest band known for two things:
>> first their songs were loved by a lot of people and second they were
>> unable to read a partition.
>> 
>> And that's were his confusion resides. They knew very well what they
>> were doing. Some of the interviews they gave proved that if they were
>> unable to put theoretical names on what they did, they were well aware
>> of the effects had on the ears. So, even if they learned by themselves,
>> they knew some musical theory: it wasn't useless because without it they
>> wouldn't have stand out.
>
> I know music theoreticists studied the Beatles and could relate them to 
> many previous musicians the world over. The maths applied to them. The 
> theory matched what they did.

I didn't knew it, but I'm not surprised. One can't become one of the
most famous band in the world with random creation.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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