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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Started byLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
First post2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Last post2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 340 — 25 participants

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Contents

  Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:19 -0700
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:02 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:40 +0000
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:37 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:04 +0100
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:17 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-19 17:33 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 17:26 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:36 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:03 +0100
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:39 +0000
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:58 -0700
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-20 03:33 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 09:06 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 15:09 -0700
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-20 09:16 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-20 13:37 +0000
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-20 10:51 +0200
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-20 14:18 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-20 02:48 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:07 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 02:13 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-19 11:39 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:21 +0100
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-19 22:30 +0200
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:50 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:42 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:14 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:07 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:20 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:04 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 01:13 +0100
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                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:41 +0100
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              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:05 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 17:25 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 20:19 +0000
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              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:53 +0200
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 06:02 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:26 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 06:42 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:41 +0000
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#94101

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-18 02:49 +0000
Message-ID<njiqeaFei39U22@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94082
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:36:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

>> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install libraries with
>> pip if you are not in a virtual environment.
> 
> Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard
> system libraries without breaking things?

I prefer venvs, particularly when using uv to set a Python version. For 
example when tensorflow says Python 3.9-3.12 they don't mean 3.13, 3.14, 
or 3.15. 

One annoyance is the different site packages on the various distros. For 
example on Fedora you can install python3-ruff as a site package with 
dnf.  On Ubuntu 26.04 you get 'Error: Unable to locate package python3-
ruff' and have to install it in a venv.

No big deal but it's easier to create the venv for the project just in 
case.

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#94130

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-18 12:14 +0200
Message-ID<11b265k$11csg$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94101
On 18/10/2026 04:49, rbowman wrote:
[..]
> One annoyance is the different site packages on the various distros. For
> example on Fedora you can install python3-ruff as a site package with
> dnf.  On Ubuntu 26.04 you get 'Error: Unable to locate package python3-
> ruff' and have to install it in a venv.

Or use docker.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#93973

FromJan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 07:20 +0000
Message-ID<11av7ki$3vvao$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93932
>Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid>wrote:
>>On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> Well C++ is a crime against humanity
>> 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap.
>
>Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly
>complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still
>manages to be excessively complicated.
>
>Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still
>only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++. Such a
>feature is useful, for example, in letting you express operations on
>mathematical objects (like vectors and matrices) using something close
>to the original mathematical notation.

OK
I never got much into Python
Never needed it for the things I do.
Also it seems to be changing all the time?
Most code I write is in C or in asm for Microchips.
asm is extremely powerful
 understand the hardware!!!
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/index.html
These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
Too many layers of crap.

But I come from a hardware background, in the sixties there were no 'computers'
yet they did a manned Moon landing and return.
Now they have nothing to show but driving around the block (earth orbit) with
all that computing power.

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#93974

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 07:43 +0000
Message-ID<11av8v9$9j8$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93973
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

> I never got much into Python
> Never needed it for the things I do.
> Also it seems to be changing all the time?

New features appear every year.

> But I come from a hardware background, in the sixties there were no
> 'computers' yet they did a manned Moon landing and return.

Of course they had “computers” -- several giant IBM mainframes at
Mission Control. Also every engineer had their trusty slide rule
handy.

There were 4 computers on the Apollo spacecraft -- one to control the
Saturn rocket, one in the Command Module, and 2 (1 for backup) on the
Lunar Module.

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#94017

FromJan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 12:17 +0000
Message-ID<11avp0q$65kh$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93974
>Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid>wrote:
>>On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> I never got much into Python
>> Never needed it for the things I do.
>> Also it seems to be changing all the time?
>
>New features appear every year.
>
>> But I come from a hardware background, in the sixties there were no
>> 'computers' yet they did a manned Moon landing and return.
>
>Of course they had “computers” -- several giant IBM mainframes at
>Mission Control. Also every engineer had their trusty slide rule
>handy.
>
>There were 4 computers on the Apollo spacecraft -- one to control the
>Saturn rocket, one in the Command Module, and 2 (1 for backup) on the
>Lunar Module.

You are right, real computers, I just read
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer

Not much memory compared to today's ...
I still have a slide rule somewhere...
And old calculators..

I remember playing moonlanding game on a Commodore PET in the seventies?

:-)

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#94075

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-17 20:18 +0000
Message-ID<nji3gfFei39U16@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94017
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 12:17:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:


> Not much memory compared to today's ...
> I still have a slide rule somewhere... And old calculators..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30

I believe RPI's had 32k of core. For FFTs etc you wrote partial products 
to tape, rewind, and take another pass. Rinse and repeat. rewind() is 
still in the C standard library but it was very literal back then.

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#94111

FromJan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 08:16 +0000
Message-ID<11b1v91$v6cl$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94075
>rbowman <bowman@montana.com>wrote:
>>On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 12:17:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>
>> Not much memory compared to today's ...
>> I still have a slide rule somewhere... And old calculators..
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30
>
>I believe RPI's had 32k of core. For FFTs etc you wrote partial products 
>to tape, rewind, and take another pass. Rinse and repeat. rewind() is 
>still in the C standard library but it was very literal back then.

In those days I was working in broadcasting, no computers there, tubes, lots and lots of logic and transistors, 
 https://archive.org/details/ampex-vr-1100-videotape-television-recorder
then we got the VR2000
and later the  AVR1 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruplex_videotape

When the Moon landings happened I was in the head control room here relaying it to the people.
Lots of tubes those days in that studio, had to keep it running.

At home I had my own video recorder:
 https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philips_ldl100001ldl_10000.html 
Later modified it for color...

Video has become a sort of second nature to me.

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#94076

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 20:18 +0000
Message-ID<11b0l6p$iems$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94017
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 12:17:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
>
> Not much memory compared to today's ...

Well, they weren’t running a complex GUI ;). You entered “Noun” and
“Verb” numbers to select which program to run. E.g. the program for
the lunar landing was “P64”. During the Apollo 11 landing, it crashed,
twice.

> I still have a slide rule somewhere...

I remember reading that the world’s largest slide-rule maker at the
time, Keufel & Esser, went bust in 1971. Electronic digital
calculators had arrived ... not long after the last Moon landing.

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#94115

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-10-18 04:47 -0400
Message-ID<D1qdnXTkH9BbGkn3nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#94076
On 10/17/26 16:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 12:17:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
>>
>> Not much memory compared to today's ...
> 
> Well, they weren’t running a complex GUI ;). You entered “Noun” and
> “Verb” numbers to select which program to run. E.g. the program for
> the lunar landing was “P64”. During the Apollo 11 landing, it crashed,
> twice.

   It was a totally CRAP computer ... "rope memory" ...
   probably less power than a PIC16f84.

   AMAZING they got down safe - credit Cool Neil.

>> I still have a slide rule somewhere...

   I have a few as well. NOT bad tools, even now, and
   don't need batteries. Civ implodes, slide-rules
   will be THE most coveted devices.

> I remember reading that the world’s largest slide-rule maker at the
> time, Keufel & Esser, went bust in 1971. Electronic digital
> calculators had arrived ... not long after the last Moon landing.

   I bought some of the earliest 'calculators'. NOT
   cheap back in the day. Still have ONE that works.
   9V battery and it Goes. Early 70s. Pre-LED.

   BEFORE, Dad had a "Marchant" MECHANICAL calculator.
   Enter numbers on a big matrix keyboard. Press a
   function key. Calc might be quick, or take an hour.
   Ka-CHUNK Ka-CHUNK Ka-CHUNK .... mech-digital display.
   Super cool ! INSANE gearworks !

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#94040

FromLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
Date2026-10-17 17:26 +0000
Message-ID<18df6128f9a41e3b$1918$1722273$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>
In reply to#93973
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

>
> Most code I write is in C or in asm for Microchips.
> asm is extremely powerful
>  understand the hardware!!!
>

It is good to hear someone actually standing up for
C and assembly.

These Linux groups seem to be packed only with Python/C++
jockeys.  The poor dupes don't know what they're missing.

Assembly is the most fun of any programming language.
There is none of the uncertainty that slows one down
when using a higher level language.  The instructions
just flow effortlessly.

However, I do still have trouble with the shuffle operations
on the SIMD registers.  I need to always check the manuals
to see what goes where.

Intel and GCC provide support for so-called "intrinsics" that
allow assembly code to be directly incorporated into C code,
but these, for me, are tedious and not much fun to use.

You are also correct in stating that a thorough knowledge
of hardware is a requisite for assembly programming.  After
all, one is dealing directly with digital registers with no
cozy compiler or interpreter in between.


>
> These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
> Too many layers of crap.
> 

GNU has published the definitive version of Hello World:

<https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>

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#94042

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-17 19:47 +0200
Message-ID<11b0cbt$f5om$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94040
On 17/10/2026 19:26, Leroy H wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>> Most code I write is in C or in asm for Microchips.
>> asm is extremely powerful
>>   understand the hardware!!!
>>
> 
> It is good to hear someone actually standing up for
> C and assembly.
> 
> These Linux groups seem to be packed only with Python/C++
> jockeys.  The poor dupes don't know what they're missing.

I have programmed several processor families in the past. I am sure I am 
not alone. I have done some work in C, including a graph-to-GIF 
converter :-).

>> These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
>> Too many layers of crap.

But it often supports Unicode ;-)

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94107

FromJan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 07:25 +0000
Message-ID<11b1s8d$u79o$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94042
>John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>wrote:
>>On 17/10/2026 19:26, Leroy H wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>
>>> Most code I write is in C or in asm for Microchips.
>>> asm is extremely powerful
>>>   understand the hardware!!!
>>>
>> 
>> It is good to hear someone actually standing up for
>> C and assembly.
>> 
>> These Linux groups seem to be packed only with Python/C++
>> jockeys.  The poor dupes don't know what they're missing.
>
>I have programmed several processor families in the past. I am sure I am 
>not alone. I have done some work in C, including a graph-to-GIF 
>converter :-).
>
>>> These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
>>> Too many layers of crap.
>
>But it often supports Unicode ;-)

Some of C code I released into public domain:
 https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html

Am posting this with NewsFleX from a Raspberry Pi4 8 GB
The Raspberry version is not on my website yet,
 still testing (now for some years).
Seems to work OK though.

Some Microchip asm code and projects:
 https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/index.html

I started with Linux with SLS Linux around 1992
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softlanding_Linux_System

There was no 'Free Agent' newsreader back then for Linux so I wrote my own.

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#94058

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 18:45 +0000
Message-ID<FnPAS.44365$fY7.11865@fx20.iad>
In reply to#94040
On 2026-10-17, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
>> Too many layers of crap.
>
> GNU has published the definitive version of Hello World:
>
> <https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>

Holy cow.  I guess it's time to resurrect this old chestnut:


Mon Nov 12 20:03:48 1990
Message : #1011969    From: cs161fhn%sdcc10@ucsd.edu
Group   : NET.Funny
Length  : 198 words
Subject : Evolution of a programmer

Msg-ID: <S1c5.4b61@looking.on.ca>
Posted: 13 Nov 90 00:30:05 GMT

Person: Dennis Lou


The Evolution of a programmer.

(Okay, it's late and I'm not thinking straight, but at least it's
original...)

High school/Jr. High
--------------------
10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
20 END


First year in college
---------------------
program Hello(input, output);
  begin
    writeln ('Hello world');
  end

Senior year in college
----------------------
(defun hello
  (print
        (cons 'HELLO (list 'WORLD))))

New professional
----------------
#include <stdio.h>
main (argc,argv)
int argc;
char **argv; {
printf ("Hello World!\n");
}

Seasoned pro
------------
#include <stream.h>

const int MAXLEN = 80;

class outstring;
class outstring {
   private:

   int size;
   char str[MAXLEN];

public:
   outstring() { size=0; }
   ~outstring() {size=0;}
   void print();
   void assign(char *chrs);
};
void outstring::print() {
  int i;
  for (i=0 ; i< size ; i++)
    cout << str[i];
  cout << "\n";
  }
void outstring::assign(char *chrs) {
  int i;
  for (i=0; chrs[i] != '\0';i++)
     str[i] = chrs[i];
  size=i;
  }

main (int argc, char **argv) {
  outstring string;

  string.assign("Hello World!");
  string.print();
  }


Manager
------
/* George, I need a program to print a string
     "Hello World!"  */

--
Edited by Brad Templeton.  MAIL your jokes (jokes ONLY) to funny@looking.ON.CA
Attribute the joke's source if at all possible.  A Daemon will auto-reply.

If you don't need a reply, submit to rhf@looking.on.ca instead.

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#94079

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 20:26 +0000
Message-ID<11b0llp$iems$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94058
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:45:57 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

>> <https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>
>
> Holy cow.

On a similar note, the original Unix “true” command was ... an empty
shell script. Nevertheless, AT&T tried to claim copyright on it
<http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/humor/ATT_Copyright_true.html>.

Worth comparing the GNU coreutils version of “true”
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/line_break_ep2/>, which is
... 80 lines long. The same code is also used to generate the “false”
command. The full source is posted in that article, to make fun of
supposed “software bloat” or something. The writer completely fails to
realize a point made in the previous link: that the GNU version uses
less memory and runs faster.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#94092

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
Message-ID<JYSAS.85680$TYg.16312@fx21.iad>
In reply to#94079
On 2026-10-17, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:45:57 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>>> <https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>
>>
>> Holy cow.
>
> On a similar note, the original Unix “true” command was ... an empty
> shell script. Nevertheless, AT&T tried to claim copyright on it
> <http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/humor/ATT_Copyright_true.html>.
>
> Worth comparing the GNU coreutils version of “true”
><http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/line_break_ep2/>, which is
> ... 80 lines long. The same code is also used to generate the “false”
> command. The full source is posted in that article, to make fun of
> supposed “software bloat” or something. The writer completely fails to
> realize a point made in the previous link: that the GNU version uses
> less memory and runs faster.

https://en.wikipedia.ort/wiki/IEFBR14

It describes a do-nothing program that needed maintenance anyway.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  In this world there are
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  two kinds of people:
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  from incomplete data.

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#94093

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 22:51 +0000
Message-ID<j_SAS.85681$TYg.26982@fx21.iad>
In reply to#94092
On 2026-10-17, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2026-10-17, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:45:57 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>>> <https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>
>>>
>>> Holy cow.
>>
>> On a similar note, the original Unix “true” command was ... an empty
>> shell script. Nevertheless, AT&T tried to claim copyright on it
>> <http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/humor/ATT_Copyright_true.html>.
>>
>> Worth comparing the GNU coreutils version of “true”
>><http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/line_break_ep2/>, which is
>> ... 80 lines long. The same code is also used to generate the “false”
>> command. The full source is posted in that article, to make fun of
>> supposed “software bloat” or something. The writer completely fails to
>> realize a point made in the previous link: that the GNU version uses
>> less memory and runs faster.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.ort/wiki/IEFBR14
>
> It describes a do-nothing program that needed maintenance anyway.

Oops!

s/ort/org/

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  In this world there are
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  two kinds of people:
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  from incomplete data.

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#94117

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-10-18 04:58 -0400
Message-ID<MpGcnScZ_--wF0n3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#94079
On 10/17/26 16:26, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:45:57 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
>>> <https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>
>>
>> Holy cow.
> 
> On a similar note, the original Unix “true” command was ... an empty
> shell script. Nevertheless, AT&T tried to claim copyright on it
> <http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/humor/ATT_Copyright_true.html>.

   An attempted patent on NOTHING ... :-)

> Worth comparing the GNU coreutils version of “true”
> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/line_break_ep2/>, which is
> ... 80 lines long. The same code is also used to generate the “false”
> command. The full source is posted in that article, to make fun of
> supposed “software bloat” or something. The writer completely fails to
> realize a point made in the previous link: that the GNU version uses
> less memory and runs faster.

   Um ... why'd it take 80 lines ?

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#94108

FromJan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 07:43 +0000
Message-ID<11b1tbo$uhv3$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94058
>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>wrote:
>>On 2026-10-17, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>>> These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
>>> Too many layers of crap.
>>
>> GNU has published the definitive version of Hello World:
>>
>> <https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>
>
>Holy cow.  I guess it's time to resurrect this old chestnut:
>
>
>Mon Nov 12 20:03:48 1990
>Message : #1011969    From: cs161fhn%sdcc10@ucsd.edu
>Group   : NET.Funny
>Length  : 198 words
>Subject : Evolution of a programmer
>
>Msg-ID: <S1c5.4b61@looking.on.ca>
>Posted: 13 Nov 90 00:30:05 GMT
>
>Person: Dennis Lou
>
>
>The Evolution of a programmer.
>
>(Okay, it's late and I'm not thinking straight, but at least it's
>original...)
>
>High school/Jr. High
>--------------------
>10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
>20 END
>
>
>First year in college
>---------------------
>program Hello(input, output);
>  begin
>    writeln ('Hello world');
>  end
>
>Senior year in college
>----------------------
>(defun hello
>  (print
>        (cons 'HELLO (list 'WORLD))))
>
>New professional
>----------------
>#include <stdio.h>
>main (argc,argv)
>int argc;
>char **argv; {
>printf ("Hello World!\n");


I will go with that one,
but simplify it a bit

file q1.c
#include <stdio.h>
int main()
{
printf("Hello\n");
}
 
raspberrypi: ~ # gcc -o q1 q1.c
raspberrypi: ~ # l q1
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 8068 Oct 18 09:33 q1*
raspberrypi: ~ # ./q1          
Hello

So an about 8 kilobytes size executable ....

Better use bash
echo "Hello"
raspberrypi: ~ # echo "Hello"
Hello

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#94150

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 12:15 +0100
Message-ID<11b29p4$11pis$14@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94108
On 18/10/2026 08:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>wrote:
>>> On 2026-10-17, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>
>>>> These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
>>>> Too many layers of crap.
>>>
>>> GNU has published the definitive version of Hello World:
>>>
>>> <https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>
>>
>> Holy cow.  I guess it's time to resurrect this old chestnut:
>>
>>
>> Mon Nov 12 20:03:48 1990
>> Message : #1011969    From: cs161fhn%sdcc10@ucsd.edu
>> Group   : NET.Funny
>> Length  : 198 words
>> Subject : Evolution of a programmer
>>
>> Msg-ID: <S1c5.4b61@looking.on.ca>
>> Posted: 13 Nov 90 00:30:05 GMT
>>
>> Person: Dennis Lou
>>
>>
>> The Evolution of a programmer.
>>
>> (Okay, it's late and I'm not thinking straight, but at least it's
>> original...)
>>
>> High school/Jr. High
>> --------------------
>> 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
>> 20 END
>>
>>
>> First year in college
>> ---------------------
>> program Hello(input, output);
>>   begin
>>     writeln ('Hello world');
>>   end
>>
>> Senior year in college
>> ----------------------
>> (defun hello
>>   (print
>>         (cons 'HELLO (list 'WORLD))))
>>
>> New professional
>> ----------------
>> #include <stdio.h>
>> main (argc,argv)
>> int argc;
>> char **argv; {
>> printf ("Hello World!\n");
> 
> 
> I will go with that one,
> but simplify it a bit
> 
> file q1.c
> #include <stdio.h>
> int main()
> {
> printf("Hello\n");
> }
>   
> raspberrypi: ~ # gcc -o q1 q1.c
> raspberrypi: ~ # l q1
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 8068 Oct 18 09:33 q1*
> raspberrypi: ~ # ./q1
> Hello
> 
> So an about 8 kilobytes size executable ....
> 
> Better use bash
> echo "Hello"
> raspberrypi: ~ # echo "Hello"
> Hello
> 
$ ls -l /bin/bash
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1183448 Apr 18  2022 /bin/bash

-- 
"It was a lot more fun being 20 in the 70's that it is being 70 in the 20's"
Joew Walsh

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#94255

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 22:03 +0000
Message-ID<11b3fnc$1h3cv$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94058
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:45:57 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> printf ("Hello World!\n");

    puts("Hello World!\n");

or even a bit more nitpicky:

    fputs("Hello World!\n", stdout);

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