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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 379 — 26 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:19 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
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Page 13 of 19 — ← Prev page 1 … 11 12 [13] 14 15 … 19 Next page →
| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 09:11 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11avajh$59n$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93943 |
On 16/10/2026 23:19, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > IMHO one of the biggest programming mistakes is using floating > point when you can do it faster, more accurately, and more > easily with integers. That's not to say that there aren't > places where floating point is necessary - but for some of > us, that's a small portion of what we have to do. I don't > need floating point to express IP addresses, for instance. You may think that, but the potential for errors is huge. Audio encoding is typically 16 bit integer, but if you are doing serious processing there will be many adds subtracts and multiplies. Its way easier to do all that in FP and then round up to the nearest integer for the final output, than to constantly have to rescae to maintain acceptable precision -- Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 21:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11au66n$3m5co$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93893 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: > Well C++ is a crime against humanity > 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap. Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still manages to be excessively complicated. Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++. Such a feature is useful, for example, in letting you express operations on mathematical objects (like vectors and matrices) using something close to the original mathematical notation.
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| From | Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 19:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <11aucit$3o8ih$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93932 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed): > On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> Well C++ is a crime against humanity >> 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap. > > Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly > complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still > manages to be excessively complicated. C++ overly complicated? Nah. > Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still > only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++. Prove it. -- BOFH excuse #404: Sysadmin accidentally destroyed pager with a large hammer.
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 09:43 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad34325$0$3147$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #93948 |
Le 16-10-2026, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> a écrit :
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
>
>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>>> Well C++ is a crime against humanity
>>> 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap.
>>
>> Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly
>> complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still
>> manages to be excessively complicated.
>
> C++ overly complicated? Nah.
It's so awful it made its creator declare: "There are only two kinds of
languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses."
If LISP has been able to include oriented object programming nicely,
adding oriented object programming in C without breaking compatibility
didn't worked that well.
>> Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still
>> only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++.
>
> Prove it.
From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
works except when they stop to work.
Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
before the facts.
Or you want to see what's in some variables, so you print it with
print(myvariable)
When you start to have too many variables, you want to put the name of
the variable in front of it to increase its visibility, so you
print("myvariable: " + myvariable)
but that doesn't work because myvariable is not a string. So you have to
print("myvariable: " + str(myvariable))
But now you have the description of myvariable (or something like that:
I discovered it a long time ago, my memory isn't clear about it), not
its content, so you have to handle it differently (about that, I'm sure).
And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks
everything so well that now some distros don't let you install libraries
with pip if you are not in a virtual environment.
So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you want
to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way.
--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 15:02 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwv33u4o26s.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #93989 |
Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
> works except when they stop to work.
>
> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
> before the facts.
Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>> 0+""
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
0+""
~^~~
TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
Historically it was not a statically typed language, i.e. type errors
only arose at runtime.
Today even that is not really true, in the sense that if you want it to
be statically typed then you can have that:
$ cat -n junk/t.py
1 #!/usr/bin/python3
2 def f(a: int, b: int) -> int:
3 return a+b
4 print(f(0, 0))
5 print(f(0, ""))
$ mypy junk/t.py
junk/t.py:5: error: Argument 2 to "f" has incompatible type "str"; expected "int" [arg-type]
Found 1 error in 1 file (checked 1 source file)
> Or you want to see what's in some variables, so you print it with
> print(myvariable)
> When you start to have too many variables, you want to put the name of
> the variable in front of it to increase its visibility, so you
> print("myvariable: " + myvariable)
> but that doesn't work because myvariable is not a string. So you have to
> print("myvariable: " + str(myvariable))
> But now you have the description of myvariable (or something like that:
> I discovered it a long time ago, my memory isn't clear about it), not
> its content, so you have to handle it differently (about that, I'm sure).
It sounds like you just haven’t learned Python.
> And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks
> everything so well that now some distros don't let you install
> libraries with pip if you are not in a virtual environment.
>
> So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you
> want to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way.
We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues
(exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not
really problematic.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 15:06 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11avve0$8cd3$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94028 |
On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues > (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not > really problematic. Wow. someone has a real use for it! I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still battling JavaScript -- "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 17:15 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwvpkx8b8wp.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #94030 |
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes: > On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues >> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not >> really problematic. > > Wow. someone has a real use for it! It is very widely used - most (possibly all?) candidates I’ve interviewed in the last ten years have at least some background with it (albeit quite often relatively thin experience). > I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still > battling JavaScript Nod. -- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:55 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nji25eFei39U12@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94034 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 17:15:34 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes: >> On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >>> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues >>> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not >>> really problematic. >> >> Wow. someone has a real use for it! > > It is very widely used - most (possibly all?) candidates I’ve > interviewed in the last ten years have at least some background with it > (albeit quite often relatively thin experience). Much of my use was with Esri after they went to Python from VBA. The downside was Esri clung to 2.7 until their 11.0 release. Installing ArcDesktop also installed Python 2.7 with their modules. https://www.esri.com/en-us/arcgis/products/arcgis-python-libraries/ libraries/arcpy
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <acPAS.187040$iS_f.3902@fx06.iad> |
| In reply to | #94030 |
On 2026-10-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > >> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues >> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not >> really problematic. > > Wow. someone has a real use for it! > > I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still > battling JavaScript I still use C. I started puttering with Python once - maybe I should take another look at it. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b0mcp$iems$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94054 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:33:42 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > I started puttering with Python once - maybe I should take another > look at it. It just makes it easier to mess around with stuff. You know, when you’re not sure how to go about something, and are just experimenting. A good environment for experimenting with Python is Jupyter <https://jupyter.org/>. This gives you a notebook-type interface which is convenient for “scratchpad” programming.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:08 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b29bt$11pis$11@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94054 |
On 17/10/2026 19:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > On 2026-10-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> >>> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues >>> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not >>> really problematic. >> >> Wow. someone has a real use for it! >> >> I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still >> battling JavaScript > > I still use C. I started puttering with Python once - > maybe I should take another look at it. > Too old and tired and lacking in oxygen -- Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nji1u1Fei39U11@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94030 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:06:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues >> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not >> really problematic. > > Wow. someone has a real use for it! > > I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still > battling JavaScript Much of my use these days is MicroPython, although I used it last week to convert a gnarly node list output from a LoRa board to GeoJSON. My first impulse was to use C but I'm trying to improve my general Python skills. The JavaScript part came later when I used the leaflet.js library to create a map to display the GeoJSON. Unfortunately leaflet traditionally used tiles from the OSM server. In the last month or so they've started enforcing an obscure header in the request so the tiles you get are basically '403 FOAD'
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 17:36 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b04le$auup$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94028 |
On 17/10/2026 16:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: [..] > Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it > won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type: > > >>> 0+"" > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module> > 0+"" > ~^~~ > TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str' On the other hand: ❯ python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug 8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6 (clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> 0+True 1 >>> type(True) <class 'bool'> >>> type(0) <class 'int'> >>> ;-) -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 17:12 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwvv770b91x.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #94032 |
John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>> >>> 0+""
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>> File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>> 0+""
>> ~^~~
>> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>
> On the other hand:
>
> ❯ python3
> Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug 8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6
> (clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> 0+True
> 1
>>>> type(True)
> <class 'bool'>
>>>> type(0)
> <class 'int'>
>>>>
>
> ;-)
>>> issubclass(bool, int)
True
l-)
Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in
Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of
different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object
representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write
d*G, not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nji2ocFei39U13@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94033 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 17:12:26 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in > Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of > different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object > representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write > d*G, > not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication. I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private' functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not to do bad things. Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes.
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 22:35 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b0m5o$j23b$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94071 |
On 17/10/2026 22:05, rbowman wrote: > On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 17:12:26 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > >> Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in >> Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of >> different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object >> representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write >> d*G, >> not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication. > > I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private' > functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not to > do bad things. Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes. They are hints, so yes and no: if you run the code first through mypy or pyrefly (which I prefer) and it doesn't pass just don't run it. That's not really a loophole. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:12 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwv4iejzau6.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #94071 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes: > Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least >> in Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take >> operands of different types. For example if d is an int and G is a >> Python object representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be >> able to write d*G, not mess around with function calls to do point >> multiplication. > > I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private' > functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not > to do bad things. Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes. How strictly it’s enforced is a higher-level question. If you deploy and run Python code indiscriminately then it’s not enforced at all. If you insist on a `mypy --strict` pass somewhere in your build chain then it’s pretty solidly enforced. Much the same is true for code quality filters in other languages. In any language you might insist on some or all of unit test passes, a code coverage threshold, static analysis, AI review, human review etc before deployment. In some languages (e.g. C and C++) you choose which set of compiler warnings to enable and which of them should be errors. It’s all “gentleman’s agreement” if you want to characterize it that way, with relatively few exceptions none of this stuff is unavoidably enforced by the language implementation. -- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 16:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad3a65d$0$31896$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94028 |
Le 17-10-2026, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
>> works except when they stop to work.
>>
>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>> before the facts.
>
> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>
> >>> 0+""
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
> 0+""
> ~^~~
> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases it's
not that important.
With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
know.
>> Or you want to see what's in some variables, so you print it with
>> print(myvariable)
>> When you start to have too many variables, you want to put the name of
>> the variable in front of it to increase its visibility, so you
>> print("myvariable: " + myvariable)
>> but that doesn't work because myvariable is not a string. So you have to
>> print("myvariable: " + str(myvariable))
>> But now you have the description of myvariable (or something like that:
>> I discovered it a long time ago, my memory isn't clear about it), not
>> its content, so you have to handle it differently (about that, I'm sure).
>
> It sounds like you just haven’t learned Python.
You are right, I haven't learned python. I'm not a programmer. I'm using
programs written by others and sometimes, I have to change them. I don't
have time to learn a programming language when I need to fix a program.
I have to make it run as expected and move on once I get the expected
result.
With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks
something else for reasons I don't understand. Because the issue was
already there but it wasn't important, until it started to be important
after I changed something else.
And so, for me it always looks like in python things work in a way until
they stop working for unobvious reasons.
With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.
--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:01 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b09ko$dn7j$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94035 |
On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: [..] > With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't > declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare > integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't > know. I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a specific type. > With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks > something else for reasons I don't understand. I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:08 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b0a1q$du4m$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94036 |
On 17/10/2026 19:01, John Bokma wrote:
> On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
>> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
>> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
>> know.
>
> I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a
> specific type.
>
>> With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks
>> something else for reasons I don't understand.
>
> I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain
> why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience.
Examples:
Explain as a professional Python programmer why 1+True yields 2 and is valid
Thought for 3s
In Python, bool is a subclass of int . The two Boolean values behave
numerically as False == 0 and True == 1 , so adding True to 1 is
equivalent to 1 + 1 :
1 + True # 2
type(1 + True) # int
It’s valid because Python’s numeric operations accept Boolean values as
integers. In application code, though, it’s usually clearer to convert
or count explicitly if you intend to use a Boolean as a number.
Why do I have to declare dictionaries but can use integers and strings
without declaring their type
Thought for 2s
In Python, you don’t have to declare a dictionary’s type. Python is
dynamically typed: a variable name refers to an object, and the object
carries its type.
count = 3 # creates an int object
message = "hello" # creates a str object
settings = {} # creates a dict object
Integers and strings have compact literal syntax ( 3 , "hello" );
dictionaries use {} or key-value pairs, such as {"theme": "dark"} .
That’s creating a dictionary, not declaring its type.
Type annotations are optional and mainly help readers and
static-analysis tools:
settings: dict[str, str] = {}
Can't recommend Copilot enough.
--
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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