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Ancient History

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  Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-25 04:41 +0000
    Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-25 03:15 -0400
      Re: Ancient History John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 08:19 -0700
        Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-25 19:57 +0100
          Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-26 04:25 -0400
            Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-26 09:33 +0100
            Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 18:20 +0000
              Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-26 21:27 +0100
                Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 01:13 +0000
                  Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-27 03:24 -0400
                    Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 20:03 +0000
                      Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-27 23:47 -0400
                        Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-28 06:54 +0000
                          Re: Ancient History John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 09:28 -0700
                            Re: Ancient History Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-28 18:53 +0100
                              Re: Ancient History Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-30 13:11 +0100
                                [OT] Re: Ancient History Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-30 13:20 +0100
                            Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-28 20:58 +0000
                              Re: Ancient History John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 14:49 -0700
                                Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-29 05:41 +0000
                                  Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-29 02:00 -0400
                                    Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-29 10:00 +0100
                                      Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-29 21:55 +0000
                                        Re: Ancient History not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-08-30 09:02 +1000
                                          Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-30 06:28 +0000
                                            Re: Ancient History Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-30 09:15 +0100
                                              Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-30 19:28 +0000
                                        Re: Ancient History "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-30 13:56 +0200
                                          Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-30 19:10 +0000
                                            Re: Ancient History "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-30 21:32 +0200
                                    Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-29 21:46 +0000
                                  Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-29 09:57 +0100
                                    Re: Ancient History not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-08-30 09:17 +1000
                        Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-28 12:11 +0100
    Re: Ancient History "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-25 11:41 +0200
      Re: Ancient History Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-25 11:53 +0100
        Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-25 12:54 +0100
          Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-25 19:25 +0000
        Re: Ancient History "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-25 14:23 +0200
          Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-26 03:28 -0400
            Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-26 09:12 +0100
              Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 18:26 +0000
                Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-27 03:56 -0400
                  Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-27 12:00 +0100
                  Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 20:25 +0000
                    Re: Ancient History Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-27 21:48 +0000
                      Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-28 00:26 -0400
                        Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-28 06:59 +0000
                          Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-28 12:05 +0100
                            Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-28 21:02 +0000
                              Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-29 10:03 +0100
                                Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-29 22:33 +0000
                                  Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-30 17:58 +0100
                      Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-28 12:03 +0100
                    Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-28 00:06 -0400
                      Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-28 12:08 +0100
                        Re: Ancient History "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-29 13:45 +0200
                          Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-29 22:42 +0100
                          Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-29 21:59 -0400
                            Re: Ancient History "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-30 14:15 +0200
                            Metformin (Re: Ancient History) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-08-30 09:37 -0700
                    Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-28 12:03 +0100
                      Re: Ancient History Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-28 12:07 -0400
                        Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-28 21:00 +0000
                          Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-29 02:22 -0400
                          Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-29 10:01 +0100
                          Re: Ancient History Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-29 10:01 -0400
                            Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-29 22:02 +0000
            Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 18:23 +0000
              Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-26 21:29 +0100
      Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-25 12:31 +0100
        Re: Ancient History Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-25 07:53 -0400
        Re: Ancient History Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-25 18:26 +0000
          Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-25 19:37 +0000
      Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-25 19:16 +0000
        Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-25 20:21 +0100
          Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 04:40 +0000
    Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-25 12:30 +0100
      Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-26 02:49 -0400
    Re: Ancient History "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 20:07 +0800
    Re: Ancient History Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-25 11:20 -0400
      Re: Ancient History Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-08-25 17:44 +0000
      Re: Ancient History Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-25 21:55 +0000
    Re: Ancient History not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-08-27 08:59 +1000
      Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 01:20 +0000
        Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-27 03:38 -0400
          Re: Ancient History vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-08-27 08:08 +0000
            Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-27 22:13 -0400
              Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-28 04:24 +0000
      Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-27 03:21 -0400
        Re: Ancient History not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-08-28 08:58 +1000
          Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-28 00:36 -0400
          Re: Ancient History rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-28 04:42 +0000
            Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-28 02:37 -0400
            Re: Ancient History not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-08-29 07:40 +1000
              Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-29 02:03 -0400
              Re: Ancient History The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-29 10:06 +0100
    Re: Ancient History Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-08-28 08:59 +0100
      Re: Ancient History c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-29 00:19 -0400

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#90795

On 8/29/26 01:41, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2026 14:49:26 -0700, John Ames wrote:
> 
>> This is also not really true; it may or may not be harder to do without
>> dynamically rendering the whole thing client-side, but it's certainly
>> possible. Google Maps functioned that way for years.
> https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/overview

   PREF the PHP approach - makes the SERVER
   do most of the work  :-)

> Google Maps used a JavaScript API for as long as I can remember. I had the
> pleasure of talking to Google to try to determine the pricing for
> commercial use. The answer was up the lines of 'how much money you got?'.
> We used Esri's JavaScript API.

   No great solutions any more.

   Kinda SUCKS.

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#90803

On 29/08/2026 07:00, c186282 wrote:
> On 8/29/26 01:41, rbowman wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2026 14:49:26 -0700, John Ames wrote:
>>
>>> This is also not really true; it may or may not be harder to do without
>>> dynamically rendering the whole thing client-side, but it's certainly
>>> possible. Google Maps functioned that way for years.
>> https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/overview
> 
>    PREF the PHP approach - makes the SERVER
>    do most of the work  :-)
> 
A PHP page still has to be served.
If you make dynamic changes it has to be reloaded, wasting time and 
bandwidth

JavaScript enables far less network activity to be used for far more 
functionality.
Like any tool its a time saver or a danger to humanity, depending on how 
its used



-- 
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted 
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest 
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly 
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid 
before him."

    - Leo Tolstoy

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#90855

On Sat, 29 Aug 2026 10:00:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> A PHP page still has to be served.
> If you make dynamic changes it has to be reloaded, wasting time and
> bandwidth

I suppose it could be done if you're a masochist. Take a very basic 
operation, zooming in. You'd have to inform the PHP back end somehow. It 
would then have to request a new set of tiles from the tile server based 
on the Z level, render a complete new page, and serve it back to the 
browser. That would be smoother than a baby's ass. 

> JavaScript enables far less network activity to be used for far more
> functionality.
> Like any tool its a time saver or a danger to humanity, depending on how
> its used

With JavaScript the browser is making the calls for new tiles and 
rendering them. You can watch the calls in the developer's console of 
Chrome, Brave, or whatever. The browser also caches tiles to minimize web 
traffic if you're panning for example.

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#90869

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2026 10:00:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> A PHP page still has to be served.
>> If you make dynamic changes it has to be reloaded, wasting time and
>> bandwidth
> 
> I suppose it could be done if you're a masochist. Take a very basic 
> operation, zooming in. You'd have to inform the PHP back end somehow. It 
> would then have to request a new set of tiles from the tile server based 
> on the Z level, render a complete new page, and serve it back to the 
> browser. That would be smoother than a baby's ass. 

I'd use it.

>> JavaScript enables far less network activity to be used for far more
>> functionality.
>> Like any tool its a time saver or a danger to humanity, depending on how
>> its used
> 
> With JavaScript the browser is making the calls for new tiles and 
> rendering them. You can watch the calls in the developer's console of 
> Chrome, Brave, or whatever. The browser also caches tiles to minimize web 
> traffic if you're panning for example.

Browsers cache things sent to them without Javascript too, and in
fact that works a lot better than JS-based map sites where you
usually find they do stop scrolling back to parts you've already
viewed when the internet connection drops out. I get to see a lot
of Javascript going wrong on my dodgy internet connection, and it's
a joke compared to how some browsers handle caching of plain HTML
content.

Anyway for maps I'd ideally have a separate program running locally
and loading map data from an updatable local file, but last time I
looked into that (a long time ago, I'll admit) the free options
weren't very capable. I mainly still use paper maps.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#90883

On 30 Aug 2026 09:02:20 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> Anyway for maps I'd ideally have a separate program running locally and
> loading map data from an updatable local file, but last time I looked
> into that (a long time ago, I'll admit) the free options weren't very
> capable. I mainly still use paper maps.

Paper maps are fine as far as they go. We used the map to show the 
location of ongoing incidents and the location of fire, ems, and law 
enforcement resources. You could get more information by clicking on the 
icon. Multiple layers allowed turning on various classes of landmarks, 
showing jurisdictional boundaries, and so forth. Entering a street address 
would zoom to the location. You're not going to do that with paper or PHP 
serving up static pages.

Another use for crime analysis. What crimes occurred in a given time 
period? What were the patterns for specific crimes? How about a heat map 
or other graphic representation? 

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#90887

On 2026-08-30, rbowman wrote:

> On 30 Aug 2026 09:02:20 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> Anyway for maps I'd ideally have a separate program running locally and
>> loading map data from an updatable local file, but last time I looked
>> into that (a long time ago, I'll admit) the free options weren't very
>> capable. I mainly still use paper maps.
>
> Paper maps are fine as far as they go. We used the map to show the 
> location of ongoing incidents and the location of fire, ems, and law 
> enforcement resources. You could get more information by clicking on the 
> icon. Multiple layers allowed turning on various classes of landmarks, 
> showing jurisdictional boundaries, and so forth. Entering a street address 
> would zoom to the location. You're not going to do that with paper or PHP 
> serving up static pages.

There's a trade-off but it's definitely not impossible, it can be done.

Another concern here could be a light enough version so that it would
work well even with degraded network conditions or on less performant
hardware (the kind of stuff you need to take into accout for bigger
emergencies?).

> Another use for crime analysis. What crimes occurred in a given time 
> period? What were the patterns for specific crimes? How about a heat map 
> or other graphic representation?

Idem, some of this could be offered statically. But you're possibly
nearing a good example of something that needs an interactive interface,
because you easily end up with a large amount of variables you can't
cover at the server side, or if you can it significantly increases
processing and reduces the amount that can be cached? Not because of a
map/visualization, but because of trying several representations (which
I'm assuming will also involve mixing parameters and representations?).

I'm reminded of HSL's old journey planner. I may be misremembering, but
I think it was static or at least offered a static or light enough
interface, yet it worked quite well as a journey planner.

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#90922

On Sun, 30 Aug 2026 09:15:09 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:

> Idem, some of this could be offered statically. But you're possibly
> nearing a good example of something that needs an interactive interface,
> because you easily end up with a large amount of variables you can't
> cover at the server side, or if you can it significantly increases
> processing and reduces the amount that can be cached? Not because of a
> map/visualization, but because of trying several representations (which
> I'm assuming will also involve mixing parameters and representations?).

Eye candy, aka visualization, is a selling point. Oooh pretty! How useful 
it really is is another question. I had access to the St. Louis Country 
data that I used for demos. 'Look! Ferguson is red on the heat map. That 
must be a high crime area.'  No shit.

'Business intelligence' is the buzzword. Dry old text reports are out. To 
give them their due, Microsoft's Power BI is the only one that you might 
be able to hand to a middle manager and they could achieve some level of 
competency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Power_BI

I used Charts.js to enhance our text based reports with some success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chart.js

That's definitely not something a manger is going to pull off on his own, 
which is the holy grail of BI. Maybe Claude could help.

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#90896

On 2026-08-29 23:55, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2026 10:00:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> A PHP page still has to be served.
>> If you make dynamic changes it has to be reloaded, wasting time and
>> bandwidth
> 
> I suppose it could be done if you're a masochist. Take a very basic
> operation, zooming in. You'd have to inform the PHP back end somehow. It
> would then have to request a new set of tiles from the tile server based
> on the Z level, render a complete new page, and serve it back to the
> browser. That would be smoother than a baby's ass.
> 
>> JavaScript enables far less network activity to be used for far more
>> functionality.
>> Like any tool its a time saver or a danger to humanity, depending on how
>> its used
> 
> With JavaScript the browser is making the calls for new tiles and
> rendering them. You can watch the calls in the developer's console of
> Chrome, Brave, or whatever. The browser also caches tiles to minimize web
> traffic if you're panning for example.

Years ago, I figured the naming of the tiles, so that I scripted 
downloading them for my area, and then stitching them together in a huge 
graphic or map. Gimp had trouble loading it, not enough ram.

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.
        ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺.

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#90920

On Sun, 30 Aug 2026 13:56:05 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Years ago, I figured the naming of the tiles, so that I scripted
> downloading them for my area, and then stitching them together in a huge
> graphic or map. Gimp had trouble loading it, not enough ram.

It gets intense. I've set up a tile server for a specific county and it 
took quite a bit of storage. Raster tiles are typically 256x256 pixel 
pngs. The problem is each zoom level requires a set. When you're building 
the server you select how many zoom levels you want to support.

Vector tiles are lighter but all rendering is done client side, usually a 
browser. The advantage is you can do the styling on the fly rather than 
using pre-rendered tiles. Also vector tiles contain the geometries; raster 
tiles are only pretty pictures. 

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#90924

On 2026-08-30 21:10, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Aug 2026 13:56:05 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> 
>> Years ago, I figured the naming of the tiles, so that I scripted
>> downloading them for my area, and then stitching them together in a huge
>> graphic or map. Gimp had trouble loading it, not enough ram.

(I should have said those were google maps tiles)

> It gets intense. I've set up a tile server for a specific county and it
> took quite a bit of storage. Raster tiles are typically 256x256 pixel
> pngs. The problem is each zoom level requires a set. When you're building
> the server you select how many zoom levels you want to support.
> 
> Vector tiles are lighter but all rendering is done client side, usually a
> browser. The advantage is you can do the styling on the fly rather than
> using pre-rendered tiles. Also vector tiles contain the geometries; raster
> tiles are only pretty pictures.


-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.
        ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺.

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#90852

On Sat, 29 Aug 2026 02:00:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:

>    PREF the PHP approach - makes the SERVER do most of the work

I don't know PHP but what I find are sites like

https://www.sourcecodester.com/php/17354/interactive-map-markers-using-
php-and-mysql-source-code.html

https://nomadphp.com/video/232/building-interactive-maps-with-php-and-
javascript

https://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/284-Create-a-Google-Maps-alternative-
with-PHP-and-MySQL-using-the-Leaflet-library.html

https://developers.google.com/gdata/articles/php_maps_spreadsheets

Once you say 'leaflet' you're into JavaScript.

https://leafletjs.com/

Sure, you can use PHP to serve up a HTML page, extract data from a SQL 
database, and so forth. I prefer Node.js for the back end since I'd rather 
work with JS on both ends. 

If you like Python you can use Folium to create a web page and serve it 
however you want.  The HTML document will start with

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
    
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
    <script src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/npm/leaflet@1.9.3/dist/
leaflet.js"></script>

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#90802

On 29/08/2026 06:41, rbowman wrote:
> JavaScript is used by 98.7% of all websites as of 2023"
> 
> I see that 98.x % on so many sites I'm a little suspicious. Some sites may
> use the <noscript/> tag to provide alternate functionality but speaking as
> someone who has done so web development, ain't gonna happen.

HTML was never designed for an interactive experience.

E.g. Reloading a whole page explicitly after making a single change to 
an option is massively slow and clunky. Using AJAX is seamless and 
invisible.
Example. I have a web page where configurations are updated. You select 
the values and...

...that's it. There is no update or submit button at all. If you 
selected it, it's updated.

And that is the point. Properly used JavaScript or equivalent is a huge 
improvement.
The problem is its misuse to obfuscate or to insert content you did not 
request or want

-- 
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll 
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

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#90872

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 29/08/2026 06:41, rbowman wrote:
>> JavaScript is used by 98.7% of all websites as of 2023"
>> 
>> I see that 98.x % on so many sites I'm a little suspicious. Some sites may
>> use the <noscript/> tag to provide alternate functionality but speaking as
>> someone who has done so web development, ain't gonna happen.
> 
> HTML was never designed for an interactive experience.

Yes, so I wish people would stop trying to make webpages
interactive when they don't need to be.

> E.g. Reloading a whole page explicitly after making a single change to 
> an option is massively slow and clunky. Using AJAX is seamless and 
> invisible.
> Example. I have a web page where configurations are updated. You select 
> the values and...
> 
> ...that's it. There is no update or submit button at all. If you 
> selected it, it's updated.

Yeah, and I hate those because when it fails they usually make it
look like it worked anyway, so you don't know unless you manually
reload the page, which takes an age because it's 3MB of Javascript
and locally-processed data that has to be redownloaded and
inefficiently processed to show what could have been in 20KB of
plain HTML in a simple webpage sent back in the blink of an eye. Or
of course you reload and it resets back to a different view
entirely.

If you're running it on a LAN or localhost, like CUPS (though I
avoid that too), fine, otherwise give me back my submit button!

> And that is the point. Properly used JavaScript or equivalent is a huge 
> improvement.
> The problem is its misuse to obfuscate or to insert content you did not 
> request or want

No, that's just the start of the problems.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#90744

On 28/08/2026 04:47, c186282 wrote:
> I just skipped Java and especially JS ... bad
>    to write, slow to run, just not something I
>    would like. Tossed all my Java/JS books when
>    I retired.

Sadly I need JavaScript - I write a lot of web controlled stuff for my 
home systems

It is horrible. But mostly it works

Likewise PHP.

-- 
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

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#90507

On 2026-08-25 06:41, rbowman wrote:
> In my OCD quest to rejuvenate old machines I finally dug out the tower
> buried under other junk out in the shed. Turns out it's a Compaq Presario
> 4550. It has a 233 MHz AMD K6 that was AMDs challenge to the Pentium II.
> It was pin compatible and could be used in a Socket 7 board. It has 48 MB
> of RAM (no, that's not a typo) and a 4 GB HDD. For your computing
> convenient, it has a 56K modem. There are 2 USB ports although I think it
> expects the mouse and keyboard to be plugged into the PS2 ports.
> 
> Two distros that claim to run in 48 MB are Tiny Core and Slax. slax
> specifies text only unless you have more RAM. Tiny Core isn't very
> specific.
> 
> I think I'll let that sleeping dog slumber on although I might see if it
> boots at all.
> 
> Now for the real puzzle. I was a fairly decent machine in 1997 and came
> with Windows 95. Windows 95 claimed a minimum of 4 MB, recommended 8 MB,
> and if you had 16 MB or more didn't bother creating a swap file. What the
> flaming hell has happened to us?  Even by Windows 98 24 MB was
> recommended. Now you can barely run a pared down Linux in 48 MB and I
> doubt it's a very appealing UX.
> 

Back then, my machine that would happily run Win 98 had trouble running 
SuSE Linux. Linux wanted as much ram as possible.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#90514

On 2026-08-25, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2026-08-25 06:41, rbowman wrote:
>> In my OCD quest to rejuvenate old machines I finally dug out the tower
>> buried under other junk out in the shed. Turns out it's a Compaq Presario
>> 4550. It has a 233 MHz AMD K6 that was AMDs challenge to the Pentium II.
>> It was pin compatible and could be used in a Socket 7 board. It has 48 MB
>> of RAM (no, that's not a typo) and a 4 GB HDD. For your computing
>> convenient, it has a 56K modem. There are 2 USB ports although I think it
>> expects the mouse and keyboard to be plugged into the PS2 ports.
>>
>> Two distros that claim to run in 48 MB are Tiny Core and Slax. slax
>> specifies text only unless you have more RAM. Tiny Core isn't very
>> specific.
>>
>> I think I'll let that sleeping dog slumber on although I might see if it
>> boots at all.
>>
>> Now for the real puzzle. I was a fairly decent machine in 1997 and came
>> with Windows 95. Windows 95 claimed a minimum of 4 MB, recommended 8 MB,
>> and if you had 16 MB or more didn't bother creating a swap file. What the
>> flaming hell has happened to us?  Even by Windows 98 24 MB was
>> recommended. Now you can barely run a pared down Linux in 48 MB and I
>> doubt it's a very appealing UX.
>>
>
> Back then, my machine that would happily run Win 98 had trouble
> running SuSE Linux. Linux wanted as much ram as possible.

I used the same machine for Windows 98 and GNU/Linux. Granted, it
started with 64 MiB and was at some point upgraded to at least 256 MiB
(and later a bit more). That Pentium II Slot 1 machine was in use as the
main desktop until 2008 (by then running Debian for 1-2 years, IIRC),
while I at some point used KDE 3, it was happy with that amount of
memory (and could also run e.g. OOo; a laptop with 64 MiB was a bit of a
different story), and life became easier as at some point I moved away
from DEs.

But this is already more than 48 MiB, and probably at a sweet point
where it was enough memory for the kernel, X11 and applications.

The biggest challenge was updating (compiling, Gentoo) GCC because of
insn_attrtab.c [1] :-D

Other challenges IIRC included Firefox coping with a larger amount of
open tabs (although it still behaved much better than nowadays), and in
one specific use case, Egacs, er, Emacs.


Overall, Windows 98 was, even considering its issues, a nice system, a
nice interface usually with light resource requirements. I think the
only slowdown I remember was browsing DVD media in the Windows Explorer,
and I have no idea if that was a Windows issue in itself or something
with that specific optical drive. It's no Windows NT, but there's
probably a reason it tends to be fondly remembered, even with MICROS~1
being MICROS~1 (they've, for example, IIRC not released the fix for
KB312108 (NDIS "Protection Error" on fast enough CPUs [2]), instead
making it available on request through their support channels... (I have
no idea if this was on ftp.microsoft.com, I suppose it's possible it was
there despite this?)).

[1] <https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29442> (behind Anubis)
[2] <http://web.archive.org/web/20040513001718/http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=312108>

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#90530

On 25/08/2026 11:53, Nuno Silva wrote:
> Overall, Windows 98 was, even considering its issues, a nice system, a
> nice interface usually with light resource requirements.

Yes. I knew people who ran that - I was on it until I got XP - and yes, 
it blue screened and crashed and locked up but when it worked it was 
sorta OK. Needed 16MB of RAM. And a 466 or Pentium, Think I had an AMD

I cant remember how big my first *desktop* linux machine was - I'd 
deployed it on a NAS already - but 256MB rings a bell.



-- 
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

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#90565

On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 12:54:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 25/08/2026 11:53, Nuno Silva wrote:
>> Overall, Windows 98 was, even considering its issues, a nice system, a
>> nice interface usually with light resource requirements.
> 
> Yes. I knew people who ran that - I was on it until I got XP - and yes,
> it blue screened and crashed and locked up but when it worked it was
> sorta OK. Needed 16MB of RAM. And a 466 or Pentium, Think I had an AMD
> 
> I cant remember how big my first *desktop* linux machine was - I'd
> deployed it on a NAS already - but 256MB rings a bell.

I installed Slackware from floppies on something. but I can't remember 
what. I also installed Mandrake from the shrik wrapped box set but it 
certainly wasn't on the Compaq.

https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/4801

That recommends 128 or preferably 256 MB. KDE was fat by 2001.

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#90534

On 2026-08-25 12:53, Nuno Silva wrote:
> On 2026-08-25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> 
>> On 2026-08-25 06:41, rbowman wrote:
>>> In my OCD quest to rejuvenate old machines I finally dug out the tower
>>> buried under other junk out in the shed. Turns out it's a Compaq Presario
>>> 4550. It has a 233 MHz AMD K6 that was AMDs challenge to the Pentium II.
>>> It was pin compatible and could be used in a Socket 7 board. It has 48 MB
>>> of RAM (no, that's not a typo) and a 4 GB HDD. For your computing
>>> convenient, it has a 56K modem. There are 2 USB ports although I think it
>>> expects the mouse and keyboard to be plugged into the PS2 ports.
>>>
>>> Two distros that claim to run in 48 MB are Tiny Core and Slax. slax
>>> specifies text only unless you have more RAM. Tiny Core isn't very
>>> specific.
>>>
>>> I think I'll let that sleeping dog slumber on although I might see if it
>>> boots at all.
>>>
>>> Now for the real puzzle. I was a fairly decent machine in 1997 and came
>>> with Windows 95. Windows 95 claimed a minimum of 4 MB, recommended 8 MB,
>>> and if you had 16 MB or more didn't bother creating a swap file. What the
>>> flaming hell has happened to us?  Even by Windows 98 24 MB was
>>> recommended. Now you can barely run a pared down Linux in 48 MB and I
>>> doubt it's a very appealing UX.
>>>
>>
>> Back then, my machine that would happily run Win 98 had trouble
>> running SuSE Linux. Linux wanted as much ram as possible.
> 
> I used the same machine for Windows 98 and GNU/Linux. Granted, it
> started with 64 MiB and was at some point upgraded to at least 256 MiB

The machine I was talking above had much less than that. I think one 
machine had 5 MiB, later had another with maybe 8 or 16. I don't 
remember for sure.

Not 98, after 95 I had Me.

> (and later a bit more). That Pentium II Slot 1 machine was in use as the
> main desktop until 2008 (by then running Debian for 1-2 years, IIRC),
> while I at some point used KDE 3, it was happy with that amount of
> memory (and could also run e.g. OOo; a laptop with 64 MiB was a bit of a
> different story), and life became easier as at some point I moved away
> from DEs.
> 
> But this is already more than 48 MiB, and probably at a sweet point
> where it was enough memory for the kernel, X11 and applications.
> 
> The biggest challenge was updating (compiling, Gentoo) GCC because of
> insn_attrtab.c [1] :-D
> 
> Other challenges IIRC included Firefox coping with a larger amount of
> open tabs (although it still behaved much better than nowadays), and in
> one specific use case, Egacs, er, Emacs.

FFx caused trashing.


> Overall, Windows 98 was, even considering its issues, a nice system, a
> nice interface usually with light resource requirements. I think the
> only slowdown I remember was browsing DVD media in the Windows Explorer,
> and I have no idea if that was a Windows issue in itself or something
> with that specific optical drive. It's no Windows NT, but there's
> probably a reason it tends to be fondly remembered, even with MICROS~1
> being MICROS~1 (they've, for example, IIRC not released the fix for
> KB312108 (NDIS "Protection Error" on fast enough CPUs [2]), instead
> making it available on request through their support channels... (I have
> no idea if this was on ftp.microsoft.com, I suppose it's possible it was
> there despite this?)).
> 
> [1] <https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29442> (behind Anubis)
> [2] <http://web.archive.org/web/20040513001718/http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=312108>
> 


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#90601

On 8/25/26 08:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2026-08-25 12:53, Nuno Silva wrote:
>> On 2026-08-25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> On 2026-08-25 06:41, rbowman wrote:
>>>> In my OCD quest to rejuvenate old machines I finally dug out the tower
>>>> buried under other junk out in the shed. Turns out it's a Compaq 
>>>> Presario
>>>> 4550. It has a 233 MHz AMD K6 that was AMDs challenge to the Pentium 
>>>> II.
>>>> It was pin compatible and could be used in a Socket 7 board. It has 
>>>> 48 MB
>>>> of RAM (no, that's not a typo) and a 4 GB HDD. For your computing
>>>> convenient, it has a 56K modem. There are 2 USB ports although I 
>>>> think it
>>>> expects the mouse and keyboard to be plugged into the PS2 ports.
>>>>
>>>> Two distros that claim to run in 48 MB are Tiny Core and Slax. slax
>>>> specifies text only unless you have more RAM. Tiny Core isn't very
>>>> specific.
>>>>
>>>> I think I'll let that sleeping dog slumber on although I might see 
>>>> if it
>>>> boots at all.
>>>>
>>>> Now for the real puzzle. I was a fairly decent machine in 1997 and came
>>>> with Windows 95. Windows 95 claimed a minimum of 4 MB, recommended 8 
>>>> MB,
>>>> and if you had 16 MB or more didn't bother creating a swap file. 
>>>> What the
>>>> flaming hell has happened to us?  Even by Windows 98 24 MB was
>>>> recommended. Now you can barely run a pared down Linux in 48 MB and I
>>>> doubt it's a very appealing UX.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Back then, my machine that would happily run Win 98 had trouble
>>> running SuSE Linux. Linux wanted as much ram as possible.
>>
>> I used the same machine for Windows 98 and GNU/Linux. Granted, it
>> started with 64 MiB and was at some point upgraded to at least 256 MiB
> 
> The machine I was talking above had much less than that. I think one 
> machine had 5 MiB, later had another with maybe 8 or 16. I don't 
> remember for sure.
> 
> Not 98, after 95 I had Me.
> 
>> (and later a bit more). That Pentium II Slot 1 machine was in use as the
>> main desktop until 2008 (by then running Debian for 1-2 years, IIRC),
>> while I at some point used KDE 3, it was happy with that amount of
>> memory (and could also run e.g. OOo; a laptop with 64 MiB was a bit of a
>> different story), and life became easier as at some point I moved away
>> from DEs.
>>
>> But this is already more than 48 MiB, and probably at a sweet point
>> where it was enough memory for the kernel, X11 and applications.
>>
>> The biggest challenge was updating (compiling, Gentoo) GCC because of
>> insn_attrtab.c [1] :-D
>>
>> Other challenges IIRC included Firefox coping with a larger amount of
>> open tabs (although it still behaved much better than nowadays), and in
>> one specific use case, Egacs, er, Emacs.
> 
> FFx caused trashing.
> 
> 
>> Overall, Windows 98 was, even considering its issues, a nice system, a
>> nice interface usually with light resource requirements. I think the
>> only slowdown I remember was browsing DVD media in the Windows Explorer,
>> and I have no idea if that was a Windows issue in itself or something
>> with that specific optical drive. It's no Windows NT, but there's
>> probably a reason it tends to be fondly remembered, even with MICROS~1
>> being MICROS~1 (they've, for example, IIRC not released the fix for
>> KB312108 (NDIS "Protection Error" on fast enough CPUs [2]), instead
>> making it available on request through their support channels... (I have
>> no idea if this was on ftp.microsoft.com, I suppose it's possible it was
>> there despite this?)).
>>
>> [1] <https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29442> (behind Anubis)
>> [2] <http://web.archive.org/web/20040513001718/http:// 
>> support.microsoft.com/?kbid=312108>

   Heh ... had one client, a doctor, who would go
   looking for garage sales with like ancient
   Packard Bell computers.

   Then I was supposed to make them work with his
   other office stuff - networking, accounting
   apps, medical database stuff.

   Remember "LANtastic" ? WAY smaller/cheaper
   than Novell networking.

   Amazing how Win95/98 WOULD work with WAY
   too little RAM. Just, well, kinda SLOW.

   DID boost the accountants box, added a
   whole two megabytes of RAM I found
   somewhere. DID quad the speed of his
   accounting app. He was very happy.

   That's "MEGAbytes", not "GIGAbytes".

   Doc was a fun guy, rarely took any money for it.
   Got a few perks too, esp during 'epidemics'.
   He once sneaked-up behind me with a flu shot,
   said I was an 'invaluable worker'. Much of the
   general pubic didn't get vax that year, for
   some reason it was reserved for 'high-risk'
   people.

   Spent a lot of time in his ceiling space
   running wires .... much younger then.
   Would not dare do anything like that now.
   Don't even like step-ladders. As Mick
   said, "What a drag it is getting old" ...

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