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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #8071

Re: Wish to try Linux

From Aragorn <stryder@telenet.be.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc
Subject Re: Wish to try Linux
Followup-To comp.os.linux.misc
Date 2013-05-10 09:18 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Strider
Message-ID <kmi6q2$5hj$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <kmgs8e$u5i$1@news.albasani.net> <kmhua2$4gj$1@dont-email.me> <kmi3vc$uaj$1@news.albasani.net>

Followups directed to: comp.os.linux.misc

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On Friday 10 May 2013 08:26, The Natural Philosopher conveyed the 
following to comp.os.linux.misc...

> On 10/05/13 05:53, Aragorn wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 09 May 2013 21:09, Peter Percival conveyed the following
>> to comp.os.linux.misc...
>>
>>> I am the proud owner of an Acer Aspire A5-4 notebook running Windows
>>> 7, and I have a broadband internet connection.  May I download
>>> some-Linux-or-other, burn it on to a CD to use on my note book,
>>> _and_ on an elderly Windows XP computer?
>>
>> Yes, you can do that, but bear in mind that there are 32-bit
>> distributions and 64-bit distributions.  A 32-bit system will work on
>> a 64-bit machine, but not vice versa. ;-)
>>
>> That said, a CD is probably not going to cover it all.  Most
>> distributions come as DVD images these days.  As other posters have
>> told you, you must burn the DVD /from/ the image, not put the image
>> on the disk.  Typically your burning software will have an option
>> "burn from ISO" or "burn as raw data" or something of the likes. 
>> That's the option you need.
>>
>>> Even if I can't use the same CD on both machines, I would like to
>>> try it on the notebook.
>>
>> Well, several distributions come as installable live CD/DVDs, which
>> means that you can already try out the system without needing to
>> install anything on your hard disk at all, as the system will run off
>> the CD/DVD drive.  This will of course be rather slow compared to a
>> hard disk installation, but it should be enough to let you look
>> around and play with it.
>>
>>> I know nothing about Linux or computers in general, so
>>> recommendations of which Linux to download will be gratefully
>>> received.
>>
>> Many here have advised you Ubuntu or Mint - Mint is actually an
>> Ubuntu derivative - and while both may be "easy" for beginners, the
>> downside of them is that they also /keep you trapped/ in that
>> beginner stage, because they obfuscate the full experience.
> 
> That is making some very broad assumptions about the OPs motives in
> trying linux, Aragorn.

No, I'm not making any such assumptions at all.  I am however pointing 
out that the choice of certain distributions to obfuscate the underlying 
system quite commonly leads to persistent misconceptions among the 
GNUbies about how the system works, and as such, to those GNUbies 
looking to solve any and all problems they might encounter by using the 
same methods as which apply in Microsoft Windows.  And _that_ is of 
course not going to work, because Microsoft Windows and UNIX are two 
entirely different operating system paradigms.

The more two completely different systems appear to have in common at 
first glance, the greater the confusion and thus, the steeper the 
learning curve.  I believe that it is in the GNUbie's best interest that 
the system should be user-friendly enough - and thus, Slackware, Arch or 
Gentoo would be a bridge too far for a GNUbie - while at the same time 
making it clear from the get-go that GNU/Linux is not Microsoft Windows 
and was never even intended to mimic or supplant Microsoft Windows on 
anybody's computer.  GNU/Linux is a UNIX-family operating system, and 
its intent was simply to offer a Free (as in "freedom") alternative to 
proprietary UNIX.

The all-too-often touted "steep learning curve" of GNU/Linux is 
imaginary.  For a person who has never ever sat at a computer screen and 
keyboard, the learning curve to Microsoft Windows is just as steep as 
for GNU/Linux, if not steeper, due to very Microsoft-specific 
terminology and Microsoft-specific logic.  

GNU/Linux on the other hand is a fully standardized operating system 
architecture, and any difficulties at adopting it are typically only the 
result of a subconscious indoctrination/conditioning with The Microsoft 
Way ™.  In other words, someone habituated to Microsoft Windows will 
have greater difficulty at adapting him-/herself to GNU/Linux than 
someone who has never ever seen a computer in their life before.

> For some of us a windows like GUI that doesn't crash, isn't infested
> with spyware malware and downright bloat, is a goal sufficient unto
> itself.

Yes, but that was not my point.  Inevitably, GNUbies run into 
difficulties, and most of those difficulties are due to their 
indoctrination with The Microsoft Way ™.  As such, any and all attempts 
to make GNU/Linux appear more like Microsoft Windows will only 
subliminally feed the misconception that GNU/Linux would be anything 
like Microsoft Windows, or that the logic behind Microsoft Windows - 
e.g. how it is configured, how it must be secured, how it must be used, 
et al - would be the correct logic which applies to all computers in 
general.

> And I've been a unix man for years.
> What I am trying to say, is that for many windows is not bad, as a way
> to launch programs and use a desktop computer, if it only wasn't
> locked in, expensive bug ridden flaky and treated us like idiots.
> 
> And probably the minimal step that gets the desired result is today, 
> Mint.

Mint is making the first step easier, but by doing it, it is also making 
the second step a lot harder.  Compare it to an automotive transmission.  
If you make first gear shorter, the car will have more torque off the 
line and will leap forward faster, possibly with a longer tire squeal 
even.  But then when you shift into second gear, there's a gap and the 
revs drop back too far for the engine to still have enough torque and 
horsepower to continue leaping forward as fast as it did in first gear.

I'm subscribed to alt.os.linux.mint, and I see the level of ignorance 
and how this ignorance is being catered to by people who are only just 
slightly less ignorant, as well as by people who are /just/ as ignorant, 
and in the end, everyone's running in circles and nobody comes down to 
the point.  Even the questions become more and more vague, and you have 
to start guessing at what exactly the GNUbie is trying to accomplish and 
in which he or she thus needs assistance from the other newsgroup 
members.

And of course, having certain notorious trolls in that group - such as 
the attention-starved one with the letter-spaced name, who has already 
single-handedly managed to destroy alt.os.linux.ubuntu by his promotion 
of anti-intellectualism and his attacks on people such as myself - isn't 
helping the learning process of the GNUbie.

> At that point one has a choice: accept it for what it is, or start to
> tinker, and I can assure you that you can still get the 'full linux
> experience' by tinkering with it..

Yes, but the decision to start tinkering is that second gear I spoke of.  
If you put people off on the wrong foot first by intentionally or 
unintentionally portraying GNU/Linux as "an alternative version of 
Microsoft Windows" or even as an intended competitor for Microsoft 
Windows, then you've already damaged the GNUbie's understanding and 
ergo, his/her ability to learn.

> OTOH if you want to play with code and operating systems, why not get
> a Raspberry PI, and run debian on it?

Or Gentoo, or Slackware, or Arch, or Source Mage, or LFS.  But that's 
not exactly GNUbie territory, is it? :-)

> Apart from that, IF your assumptions are true, what you said in the
> post is of course sound advice.

Given that I was not making any assumptions but rather pointing out a 
very real and observable phenomenon, I believe that my advice was sound, 
yes. :-)

-- 
= Aragorn =
  GNU/Linux user #223157 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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Thread

Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-09 20:09 +0100
  Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-09 15:25 -0400
    Re: Wish to try Linux Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-05-09 15:24 -0500
      Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-09 21:51 +0100
      Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-09 18:41 -0400
  Re: Wish to try Linux Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2013-05-09 15:28 -0400
    Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-10 16:48 +0100
  Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-09 20:48 +0100
    Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-09 16:45 -0400
      Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-09 23:50 +0100
        Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-10 07:41 -0400
          Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-10 13:01 +0100
            Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-10 08:49 -0400
              Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <stryder@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-05-10 15:20 +0200
                Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-10 16:11 -0400
          Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-10 08:04 -0400
            Re: Wish to try Linux Bill Marcum <bill@nowhere.invalid> - 2013-05-16 07:58 -0400
          Re: Wish to try Linux Bill Marcum <bill@nowhere.invalid> - 2013-05-16 07:56 -0400
            Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-16 09:32 -0400
              Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-05-16 16:03 +0200
                Re: Wish to try Linux John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-05-16 09:27 -0500
                Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-16 10:53 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-16 15:30 +0100
                Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-16 10:52 -0400
              Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-16 15:30 +0100
              Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-16 16:14 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-16 17:23 -0400
    Re: Wish to try Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-05-09 23:49 +0000
      Re: Wish to try Linux Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-05-09 19:35 -0500
        Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-10 05:30 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-05-10 14:27 +0000
      Re: Wish to try Linux Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2013-05-09 22:13 -0400
    Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-10 16:50 +0100
      Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-10 17:19 +0100
        Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-15 16:27 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-05-15 16:34 +0000
            Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-15 17:46 +0100
              Re: Wish to try Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-05-15 18:15 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-15 19:32 +0100
                Re: Wish to try Linux Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2013-05-15 14:52 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-05-15 21:11 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-05-15 13:54 -0500
                Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-16 01:01 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-05-16 10:52 +0200
                Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-16 08:25 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-05-16 18:56 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-16 20:33 +0100
                Re: Wish to try Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-05-16 19:35 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-16 20:43 +0100
                Re: Wish to try Linux bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMORELSEagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz (Bruce Sinclair) - 2013-05-19 23:33 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-16 16:16 -0400
          Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-15 17:44 +0100
            Re: Wish to try Linux Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-05-15 13:44 -0500
              Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-15 20:37 +0100
    Re: Wish to try Linux "Chris F.A. Johnson" <cfajohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-05-14 13:51 -0400
      Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-14 21:16 +0100
        Re: Wish to try Linux "Chris F.A. Johnson" <cfajohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-05-14 17:49 -0400
          Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-15 00:02 +0100
  Re: Wish to try Linux Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-05-09 15:03 -0500
    Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-23 14:09 +0100
      Re: Wish to try Linux Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-05-23 14:38 +0100
        Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-23 16:33 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-05-23 10:55 -0500
            Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-23 19:00 +0100
              Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-06-01 11:43 +0200
                Re: Wish to try Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-06-01 11:37 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux Balwinder S Dheeman <bsd.SANSPAM@anu.homelinux.net> - 2013-06-01 21:59 +0530
                Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-06-01 19:14 +0200
                Re: Wish to try Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-06-01 17:43 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2013-06-01 19:33 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-06-02 02:37 +0200
                Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-06-01 23:05 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-06-02 09:33 +0100
                Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-06-02 07:02 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-06-02 13:26 +0200
                Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-02 15:47 +0100
                Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-06-02 14:52 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-06-02 13:32 +0200
          Re: Wish to try Linux Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2013-05-23 17:09 +0000
            Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-23 19:06 +0100
            Re: Wish to try Linux Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2013-05-24 04:48 +0000
  Re: Wish to try Linux Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> - 2013-05-09 20:03 +0000
  Re: Wish to try Linux unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2013-05-09 20:19 +0000
    Re: Wish to try Linux bad sector <forgetski@postit_INVALID_.gov> - 2013-05-09 20:27 -0400
      Re: Wish to try Linux unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2013-05-10 15:30 +0000
  Re: Wish to try Linux Stef <not@this.address.com> - 2013-05-10 03:05 +0000
    Re: Wish to try Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-05-10 14:35 +0000
      Re: Wish to try Linux Stef <not@this.address.com> - 2013-05-10 16:44 +0000
        Re: Wish to try Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-05-10 16:57 +0000
          Re: Wish to try Linux Stef <not@this.address.com> - 2013-05-11 03:59 +0000
            Re: Wish to try Linux Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2013-05-11 00:27 -0400
              Re: Wish to try Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-05-11 12:49 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-05-11 12:56 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-05-11 15:20 +0200
                Re: Wish to try Linux notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-05-11 14:14 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-11 10:30 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux  OOps Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-11 10:38 -0400
                Re: Wish to try Linux  OOps Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2013-05-12 04:37 +0000
                Re: Wish to try Linux Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2013-05-11 13:47 -0400
    Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-10 16:58 +0100
  Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <stryder@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-05-10 06:53 +0200
    Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-10 07:26 +0100
      Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <stryder@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-05-10 09:18 +0200
        Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-10 10:20 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <stryder@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-05-10 11:40 +0200
      Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-10 07:44 -0400
        Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-10 13:00 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux Octothorpe <Octothorpe@invalid.com> - 2013-05-10 08:47 -0400
            Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-10 15:50 +0100
    Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-06-21 18:44 +0100
      Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-06-21 19:53 +0200
        Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-06-21 18:55 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-06-21 20:05 +0200
      Re: Wish to try Linux Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-06-21 19:17 +0100
        Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:56 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-06-21 19:59 +0100
      Re: Wish to try Linux Antti Talsta <atalsta@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 21:04 +0300
      Re: Wish to try Linux Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2013-06-21 17:51 -0400
      Re: Wish to try Linux Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2013-06-22 01:48 +0000
      Re: Wish to try Linux Stan Bischof <stan@worldbadminton.com> - 2013-06-24 16:48 +0000
      Re: Wish to try Linux Stan Bischof <stan@worldbadminton.com> - 2013-06-24 16:56 +0000
  Re: Wish to try Linux DenverD <DenverD@invalid.dk> - 2013-05-10 09:17 +0200
  Re: Wish to try Linux lichtblitz <nospam@lichtblitz.invalid> - 2013-05-10 13:49 +0000
    Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-10 15:48 +0100
      Re: Wish to try Linux Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-05-10 11:21 -0500
        Re: Wish to try Linux lichtblitz <nospam@lichtblitz.invalid> - 2013-05-10 18:20 +0000
          Re: Wish to try Linux Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-05-10 19:54 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-10 14:55 -0400
          Re: Wish to try Linux Aragorn <stryder@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-05-11 05:40 +0200
            Re: Wish to try Linux Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2013-05-11 07:55 -0400
    Re: Wish to try Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-05-10 16:07 +0000
      Re: Wish to try Linux lichtblitz <nospam@lichtblitz.invalid> - 2013-05-10 18:29 +0000
        Re: Wish to try Linux J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-05-10 19:48 +0000
  Re: Wish to try Linux David Hough <noone$$@llondel.org> - 2013-05-10 18:13 +0100
  Re: Wish to try Linux Dirk Weber <dma-weber@globe.lu> - 2013-05-10 19:09 +0200
  Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-05-14 19:01 +0100
    Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-06-23 22:55 +0100
      Re: Wish to try Linux The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-24 00:34 +0100
        Re: Wish to try Linux John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-06-23 19:23 -0500
          Re: Wish to try Linux David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-06-25 18:50 +0200
      Re: Wish to try Linux bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMORELSEagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz (Bruce Sinclair) - 2013-06-23 22:53 +0000
        Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-06-25 12:24 +0100
          Re: Wish to try Linux Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2013-06-25 12:28 -0400
          Re: Wish to try Linux bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMORELSEagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz (Bruce Sinclair) - 2013-06-25 23:11 +0000
      Re: Wish to try Linux John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-06-23 19:30 -0500
        Re: Wish to try Linux Ross Maloney <rmatycorp@iinet.net.au> - 2013-06-24 11:07 +0800
        Re: Wish to try Linux Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2013-06-25 12:52 +0100

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