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|---|---|
| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
| Newsgroups | comp.os.linux.misc |
| Subject | Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI |
| Date | Mon, 19 Oct 2026 15:09:10 -0700 |
| Organization | A place where nothing fits quite right |
| Lines | 84 |
| Message-ID | <20261019150910.00001b26@gmail.com> (permalink) |
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On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:48:59 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> The Hammond organ was a beast...synchronous motors driving toothed
> steel wheels next to magnetic pickups,..with a spring reverb in the
> base.
>
> Keith Emerson used to switch off the drive motor to bend the pitch
> down, and stick knives in the keyboard to create drones and pick the
> whole thing up and drop it to make a dramatic 'cymbal crash'
>
> All while burning an American flag.
>
> Of course, it was all basic 'music theory' ....not...
This is probably your funniest argument yet, seeing as Emerson was, by
his own account, a "serious child" who was studying classical music
even as he also had a background in jazz, whose wild Hammond stunts
featured in e.g. a hard-rock riff on Janacek's "Sinfonietta" with an
extended quotation from Bach ("Knife-Edge,") who directly adapted
pieces by Copland, Bartok, and Ginastera, and who got an entire album
out of blending Mussorgsky with a shot of twelve-bar blues. But sure,
sure, absolutely none of that abhorrent Music Theory featured at all!
> > > This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is
> > > impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality,
> > > theory comes much later and is often virtually useless and may
> > > indeed be counterproductive.
> >
> > The theory is used even without formally knowing it.
>
> Weaselly bollox
>
> If you dont know it you cant use it
This is like arguing that math didn't exist until people in the ancient
Near East invented it. (Which, lo and behold, you've *also* said.) That
which is discoverable by inference from independent observation because
it reflects fundamental properties of the universe is the foundation of
science; any creature with a working set of senses and the capacity for
abstract thought can work out that 2 + 2 = 4 and 2 * 3 = 6 by counting,
even if they use different names for these things, the principles at
play can be generalized to other values by experiment, and the whole
rest of mathematics can be built independently off the same kernel of
observable reality.
Similarly, anyone with a length of string (catgut, rubber band) can
discover the relationship between wavelength and frequency, anyone with
*two* lengths of string can discover harmony & dissonance, anyone who
can walk and count at the same time can work out the basics of tempo &
meter, anyone who's ever had a kid scream in their ear understands the
power of dynamics painfully well, etc. etc.
Music theory, like mathematical theory, is a system (or category of
them) that seeks to derive overarching principles from the observable
properties in a way that can be communicated and put to practical appl-
ication: why (and when) is some dissonance pleasant, when most is not?
Why is perfect harmony sometimes boring? What rhythms suit which moods/
accompanying activities, and why? What progressions and cadences seem
to evoke instinctive responses in the human animal, and can these be
relied on to do so (in which cultures, in which social contexts?) And
so on and so forth.
Yes, perspectives on different points have varied with time & place.
Yes, one does not *have* to receive this knowledge in the context of a
formal education in a formalized system, because the foundations are
grounded in observable properties of reality, and the principles are
therefore independently discoverable. But to argue that theory is some
arbitrary invention that has nothing to do with practice - as opposed
to a guide to understanding & applying the principles that have under-
lain practice from prehistory down to present day, across the globe -
is frankly absurd.
> > The chinese Classic of Music dates back to about 3000 years ago and
> > the Pythagorean school is not that far behind, but ok.
>
> 'music theory' *as we know it today * has only existed a couple of
> hundred years
You yourself started off this discussion talking about "music existing
ten thousand years before music theory," so grouping classical Chinese
and Pythagorean thought in with post-Renaissance Western theory is as
fair as anything. They didn't have *any* of those in the Paleolithic.
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