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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

From The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc
Subject Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI
Date 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Organization A little, after lunch
Message-ID <11atave$3bqcl$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <11asq8f$31lan$6@dont-email.me> <11astpf$33n8m$23@dont-email.me> <11at0ld$31lan$13@dont-email.me> <11at39s$33n8m$36@dont-email.me> <11at4hq$31lan$18@dont-email.me>

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On 16/10/2026 13:15, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 12:54:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> Engineering is not applied science. Only a CS would think it was There
>> is very little science in engineering.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering:
> 
> "Engineering is the practice of systematically applying natural science
> and mathematics to design and improve systems."
> 
That is of course bollocks
No engineer would have written that

A better definition is 'an engineer is wsomeone who can make for five 
bob (£0.25) what any damn fool can make for a quid (£1)

> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/engineering
> 
> "the work of an engineer (= a person who designs or builds machines,
> engines, electrical systems, or large structures such as roads or bridges
> using scientific principles"

Again its bollocks.

"the work of an engineer (= a person who designs or builds machines,
engines, electrical systems, or large structures such as roads or bridges
using *whatever systems work* in the context.

Early engineers were carpenters,masons  and blacksmiths. A windmill for 
grinding corn is a machine, but there is no science used in its design

Perhaps the pinnacle of mediaeval engineering was the sailing ship. 
Levers and blocks and ropes, Crude rule of thumb structural engineering, 
some very basic rule of thumb hydrodynamics, learned by trial and error, 
Cannons bored by teams of donkeys using drill bits forged by smiths and 
sharpened on natural grit stones. Gunpowder made according to 
traditional recipes.

Even navigation was not really science, merely trigonometry and a bit of 
measurement

The other pinnacle that goes back to Roman times - and indeed much 
earlier, is the engineering that built roads, canals aqueducts, temples, 
bridges  and cathedrals .
The Romans didn't know why arches worked, just that they dim and what 
shape to build them.
Cathedral builders didn't know why buttresses were necessary, they just 
added them until tall walls with pitched rooves from toppling over

All these were men who 'built machines, engines,  or large structures'. 
So of course they were engineers.

About the first time science met engineering was when  someone decided 
to test the theory that cannon boring drills got hot because the heat 
was released from the metal *when it was cut*.

In a complete volte face for a theoretician, he filled the cannons with 
water, and found they boiled just as well when a completely blunt drill 
that cut nothing was used.
Science maths and engineering didn't really become entangled till steam 
engines were in use.

Such physics as existed at that time was used to calculate the best 
achievable limits and more efficient steam engines resulted.

engineering as applied science only really started to happen late 19th 
century, and its still not actually as relevant as you think. the real 
world is not so easily modelled as the non engineers like to think it 
is. Which is how the fraud of modern 'climate science' was perpetrated.

E.g. although a semiconductor is a quantum level device, it was 
discovered in terms of semiconducting effects, before quantum theory had 
shown how it worked. The photo electric effect was described, along with 
the ultraviolet catastrophe, before quantum physics provided the 
explanation. All of these are things that could be - and were - used 
without understanding why they worked, theoretically.
If you look up a transistors specification today, you wont get a nice 
neat equation describing it, you get a set of curves that reflect 
various real-world aspects of many physical processes inside it - not 
just  the quantum physics that makes it work.

Engineers work with the curves, not the theory.
Even people who design the transistors only use the theory to know what 
MIGHT work

Designing a fusion reactor is *theoretically* easy. Just make the 
pressure high enough and the plasma hot enough.

The problem of course is containing it


> 
>>> But if, and I say if, you try to build a compiler, you'll appreciate
>>> having read the dragon book.
>>>
>> I never did. My compiler worked OK.
> 
> Good, you either have reinvented the wheel on your own, or have learned
> about the wheel somewhere other than in a class settings.

Both. No one ever taught me anything about a computer beyond a 6 week 
course in Fortran All the rest came from my knowledge of digital 
electronics, and writing assembler and C on micro processors. The only 
basic CS concepts I can recall ever being useful, and those only at the 
mist basic programming stage, were data structures and
a couple of algorithms

> 
> Some of us don't have _that_ much time on our hands.
> 
Perhaps some of us aren't as smart as we like to think we are.
I had a problem to solve, How to store instructions for a 120x60 array 
of lightbulbs driven by a serial protocol  in a file so they could be 
replayed to make the pixels dance.

I designed a crude language, built an interpreter to turn it into serial 
code, and sort of crude compiler to allow an operator to generate images 
and a storyboard, and compiled those into the 'language'

I wrote a multi tasking add on to MSDOS to allow programs to run in 
background too.
The client wanted secretaries  to type in a word processor and receive 
telexes in the background too. All nasty timer interrupt scheduling and 
stack swapping to preserve contexts.

Nothing commercial existed, so I wrote it.

>>> I would be pursuing a PhD in philosophy or in music, if I didn't have
>>> to pay rent.
>>>
>> I do study sophistry since engineering made me enough money I don't have
>> to pay rent
> 
> Good for you!
> 
> Don't sell yourself short, I assume a keen business sense must have
> helped, though.

Business is just applied engineering. You build a company to make money 
like you build any machine. Just that the components are crap. People 
are very unreliable, So you build systems to provide proper feedback to 
keep things working. Total quality approach to business is simply 
negative feedback really. Something goes wring, don't blame the 
components (people) look at the system, fix the system, don't blame the 
people. If the peoiple fucked up, either they were the wring components 
and your selection system needs fixing, or they weren't given proper 
instructions so fix the training or they weren't being monitored so fix 
the management system

The hard part is finding the right activity to engage in that has people 
who want the product and not so may other people providing it that there 
is no margin. Friend of mine made a successful little business out of 
learning to print on curved obects, Like knods or non flat cases.

Its not hard, but hard enough most people cant get it right.

> 
> I bet you value that.

I worked for more cunts abd arseholes in my time as well as a large 
engineering company, that when I sighed and put my toys away and started 
to tackle the job of actually running a business without being either of 
those things I realised that they were like that because they were not 
very good at being managers. Management is about building systems and 
then deploying them defining roles and explaining them whereas most 
managers thinjk its about having meetings and telling people what to do.

> 
>>> Were I born posh, I would have made a fine candidate for philosophy at
>>> Oxbridge -- hell, Christ, I would have made a magnificient Pope!
>>>
>> I was born poor and went to Cambridge
> 
> Alas, I was born poor (a thing I am proud of, since I consider wealth
> obscene, much like building things -- it's not a coincidence the two go
> hand in hand) and outside the UK, so I had to be content with attending
> the third oldest university in the world while working.
> 
I am not proud of being poor at all. It sucks. Big time. All it teaches 
you is pone very handy lesson. What you can do without. And at a higher 
personal cost, what you cannot.
That frugality is always useful especially when running a business


> I had to rule out papacy, though....

Not my bag. I'd like to have been a rock musician.

-- 
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

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