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Groups > comp.os.linux.hardware > #2861 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-08-12 03:03 -0300 |
| Last post | 2015-09-17 19:12 +0000 |
| Articles | 16 on this page of 36 — 6 participants |
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Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-12 03:03 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2015-08-12 20:36 +0000
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-13 04:19 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-08-13 21:17 +0000
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-15 02:26 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-08-16 00:45 +0000
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-16 00:43 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-08-16 20:09 +0000
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-16 01:41 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-08-16 20:10 +0000
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-16 22:28 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-08-16 22:48 -0400
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-17 03:35 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-17 03:22 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-08-17 23:50 +0000
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-18 16:16 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-08-21 03:31 +0000
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-08-25 01:58 -0300
Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-08-27 02:28 +0000
All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-03 18:53 -0300
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-09-04 20:00 +0000
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-09-04 21:09 +0100
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-04 23:14 -0300
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-09-05 10:08 +0100
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-09-05 18:08 +0000
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-06 01:31 -0300
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-09-06 19:17 +0000
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-17 01:26 -0300
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-09-17 05:53 +0000
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-17 04:02 -0300
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-09-17 18:02 +0000
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-18 02:05 -0300
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-09-17 19:14 +0000
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-09-18 01:55 +0000
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-09-18 21:22 +0000
Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> - 2015-09-17 19:12 +0000
Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]
| From | Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-04 20:00 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <slrnmuju70.uja.ibuprofin@planck.phx.az.us> |
| In reply to | #2881 |
On 03 Sep 2015, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<87pp1z2mqk.fsf_-_@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>, Mike Spencer wrote:
>Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> writes:
>> Is it because that site is paying attention to the "User Agent"
>> string, or because they want to use Java, Active-X or microsoft Virus
>> Installer Pro (Home Edition)?
>It's because it's heavy to javascript to create a cute interactive
>site.
Yeah, I've run into that a couple of times. In nearly all cases, I
simply go elsewhere.
>I was unable to complete the transaction using the recent browser on
>the newish laptop when doing Masquerade/NAT through my dialup-connected
>main box. Disconnecting, reconnecting by using dialup directly from
>the laptop (the successful consequence of our recent exchange),
>everything worked as expected. I suppose not a hardware problem but
>why might a masqueraded connection hang?
Paranoia on the part of the SSL (Secure Sockets Layer). Port numbers
and IP address on your side of the connection don't match what your
browser encoded inside the packet. Your laptop on 192.168.1.12 connects
from (arbitrary port number - say 12345) to the server's port 443, BUT
when the connection is masqueraded, it leaves your house coming from a
different port on the masquerading box AND has a completely different IP
address. Because the data is encoded by your laptop (rather than the
masquerading box), there is a mis-match and we're now concerned about a
"man-in-the-middle" attack. PANIC!!! Run Around In Circles!!! Call
out the Marines... er.. Mounties!!! Some sites (and some browsers) will
give a warning that things don't look right (and some won't) - while
some will stop things rather than risk it.
>> [planck ~]$ cat ~/bin/mosaic
>> /usr/bin/wget -U Mosaic-2.6b1 $*
>Ha. I've actually used Mosaic on some academic Unix workstations.
./system/Network/info-systems/www/Mosaic:
598970 Jul 11 1994 Mosaic-2.4.bin.tar.gz
1519824 Mar 14 1995 Mosaic-2.5.bin.tar.gz
702460 Apr 22 1995 Mosaic-2.6b1.static.gz
That's from an old directory listing at 'sunsite.unc.edu' now known as
ibiblio.org. While ./system/network/info-systems still exists, not so
the rest of the path.
>Watched part of a movie as part of the proof of concept setup on their
>(quite sophisticated) local net.
Depends on the era, but up until about 1989, streaming something like
a movie could tie up the (Ethernet) network, as it was a single 10 MHz
channel good for about 8 megabit one-way (packet overhead). It really
wasn't designed for "continuous" (shovel the bits) type of traffic.
It worked a lot better at bursty traffic with a high peak-to-average
ratio of bit rates. But then, the performance of the computer also came
into play - it wasn't until the advent of the i80386 (~1986) that a
single host could pump enough bits to fill an Ethernet network.
Old guy
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-04 21:09 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <wwvy4gm6j6p.fsf@l1AntVDjLrnP7Td3DQJ8ynzIq3lJMueXf87AxnpFoA.invalid> |
| In reply to | #2882 |
Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> writes: > <87pp1z2mqk.fsf_-_@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>, Mike Spencer wrote: >>I was unable to complete the transaction using the recent browser on >>the newish laptop when doing Masquerade/NAT through my dialup-connected >>main box. Disconnecting, reconnecting by using dialup directly from >>the laptop (the successful consequence of our recent exchange), >>everything worked as expected. I suppose not a hardware problem but >>why might a masqueraded connection hang? > > Paranoia on the part of the SSL (Secure Sockets Layer). Port numbers > and IP address on your side of the connection don't match what your > browser encoded inside the packet. Your laptop on 192.168.1.12 connects > from (arbitrary port number - say 12345) to the server's port 443, BUT > when the connection is masqueraded, it leaves your house coming from a > different port on the masquerading box AND has a completely different IP > address. Because the data is encoded by your laptop (rather than the > masquerading box), there is a mis-match and we're now concerned about a > "man-in-the-middle" attack. PANIC!!! Run Around In Circles!!! Call > out the Marines... er.. Mounties!!! Some sites (and some browsers) will > give a warning that things don't look right (and some won't) - while > some will stop things rather than risk it. This is nonsense. SSL/TLS work fine over NAT. -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-04 23:14 -0300 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <87k2s5ipef.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
| In reply to | #2883 |
Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> writes: > Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> writes: >> <87pp1z2mqk.fsf_-_@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>, Mike Spencer wrote: >>> I was unable to complete the transaction using the recent browser on >>> the newish laptop when doing Masquerade/NAT through my dialup-connected >>> main box. Disconnecting, reconnecting by using dialup directly from >>> the laptop (the successful consequence of our recent exchange), >>> everything worked as expected. I suppose not a hardware problem but >>> why might a masqueraded connection hang? >> >> Paranoia on the part of the SSL (Secure Sockets Layer). Port numbers >> and IP address on your side of the connection don't match what your >> browser encoded inside the packet. Your laptop on 192.168.1.12 connects >> from (arbitrary port number - say 12345) to the server's port 443, BUT >> when the connection is masqueraded, it leaves your house coming from a >> different port on the masquerading box AND has a completely different IP >> address. Because the data is encoded by your laptop (rather than the >> masquerading box), there is a mis-match and we're now concerned about a >> "man-in-the-middle" attack. PANIC!!! Run Around In Circles!!! Call >> out the Marines... er.. Mounties!!! Some sites (and some browsers) will >> give a warning that things don't look right (and some won't) - while >> some will stop things rather than risk it. > > This is nonsense. SSL/TLS work fine over NAT. I'm prepared to believe both you and Moe: Works fine except when it doesn't. I haven't read the relevant RFCs and don't understand either SSL/TLS or NAT at the byte-by-byte level. Do you have another suggestion as to why the Lee Valley web site would hang via masquerade and work on direct connection? -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-05 10:08 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <wwvsi6t6xno.fsf@l1AntVDjLrnP7Td3DQJ8ynzIq3lJMueXf87AxnpFoA.invalid> |
| In reply to | #2884 |
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes: > Do you have another suggestion as to why the Lee Valley web site would > hang via masquerade and work on direct connection? Who can say? Perhaps something wrong in your NAT setup. -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-05 18:08 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <slrnmumbvs.phl.ibuprofin@planck.phx.az.us> |
| In reply to | #2883 |
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<wwvy4gm6j6p.fsf@l1AntVDjLrnP7Td3DQJ8ynzIq3lJMueXf87AxnpFoA.invalid>, Richard
Kettlewell wrote:
>Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> writes:
>> Paranoia on the part of the SSL (Secure Sockets Layer).
>This is nonsense. SSL/TLS work fine over NAT.
Yes, I should have written "Paranoia on the part of the website, relating
to SSL (Secure Sockets Layer)"
For your edification, yes, SSL normally does work over NAT and through
tunnels like TOR. HOWEVER, I have seen multiple instances when it
failed because the website author went beyond what is normal for
security. About four years ago, the website run by the company I worked
for stopped working with a NATed setup. The site was run by the
corporate office, but as I was a manager in one of the divisions, I was
able to ask WTF. It was an extra security step added in the page,
apparently some type of scripting that encoded local IPs and included
that in a cookie type of response. I'm not a web programmer, so I don't
know the details of "how", much less how it could operate with clients
running various O/S, but I got the impression that it wasn't all that
reliable. Since then, I've seen the same type of problem on several
other sites - mostly defense industry related, but also at least one
(local) on-line retail site.
Old guy
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| From | Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-06 01:31 -0300 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <87613ocgo0.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
| In reply to | #2886 |
Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> writes: > On Fri, 04 Sep 2015, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, > Richard Kettlewell wrote: > >> Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> writes: > >>> Paranoia on the part of the SSL (Secure Sockets Layer). > >> This is nonsense. SSL/TLS work fine over NAT. > > Yes, I should have written "Paranoia on the part of the website, relating > to SSL (Secure Sockets Layer)" > > For your edification, yes, SSL normally does work over NAT and through > tunnels like TOR. HOWEVER, I have seen multiple instances when it > failed because the website author went beyond what is normal for > security. About four years ago, the website run by the company I worked > for stopped working with a NATed setup. The site was run by the > corporate office, but as I was a manager in one of the divisions, I was > able to ask WTF. It was an extra security step added in the page, > apparently some type of scripting that encoded local IPs and included > that in a cookie type of response. I'm not a web programmer, so I don't > know the details of "how", much less how it could operate with clients > running various O/S, but I got the impression that it wasn't all that > reliable. Since then, I've seen the same type of problem on several > other sites - mostly defense industry related, but also at least one > (local) on-line retail site. Thanks for the details and anecdotal evidence, Moe. I've only recently started to use masquerade/NAT occasionally (so there may indeed be some setup error that only shows up under particular circumstances) and the instance of which I complained was my very first attempt to interact with an "on-line shopping" site. The only other site where I need verifiable security works with my newer-but-still-very-old-browser so NAT hasn't come into it. I'll have to ask on my local LUG mailing list if anyone has run into this or has detailed knowledge of the problem. -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| From | Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-06 19:17 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <slrnmup4dd.ugf.ibuprofin@planck.phx.az.us> |
| In reply to | #2887 |
On 06 Sep 2015, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<87613ocgo0.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>, Mike Spencer wrote:
>I've only recently started to use masquerade/NAT occasionally (so there
>may indeed be some setup error that only shows up under particular
>circumstances) and the instance of which I complained was my very first
>attempt to interact with an "on-line shopping" site.
My reply was based on the fact that you were able to complete the
transaction when connecting direct. It /could/ have been something
stupid, like one of their support servers being wedged when you tried
to connect via masquerade, and being back up and running normally when
you tried later (a.k.a. "bad luck"). As far as a masquerade problem
goes, the number of possibilities is relatively limited. The remote
host would have to see something identifiable from the masquerading box,
or from multiple boxes behind the masquerade
[planck ~]$ whatis p0f
p0f (1) - identify remote systems passively
[planck ~]$
'p0f' (Passive O/S Fingerprinter) detects this via packets showing up
with different header characteristics, such as MSS, options, timestamps,
maybe even TTLs from the same IP. This is not very likely in this case.
Another symptom is the inability for the remote host to open a separate
connection - because the masquerading box doesn't know who to forward
the new packets to (even if there's only one box on your side). But how
do you differentiate this from the normal behavior of a firewall which
says to block/drop unexpected incoming packets? (Some peer-to-peer
applications may attempt to open a separate connection - usually same
host/different port number to "your" host using the same port you are
using for an existing connection - which will fail NAT, and often fail
in a basic firewall setup.)
That essentially left the third possibility - a script looking at the
internal IP address (only valid in situation where your system/browser
allows such scripting). This possibility is usually site specific, as
few sites even try to detect masquerading/NAT.
>The only other site where I need verifiable security works with my
>newer-but-still-very-old-browser so NAT hasn't come into it.
Kind of old, but http://www.netfilter.org/documentation/HOWTO/
[TXT] NAT-HOWTO.txt 05-Oct-2012 10:33 25K
[TXT] netfilter-double-nat-HOWTO.txt 05-Oct-2012 10:33 9.4K
[TXT] netfilter-extensions-HOWTO.txt 05-Oct-2012 10:33 80K
[TXT] netfilter-hacking-HOWTO.txt 05-Oct-2012 10:33 81K
[TXT] netfilter-mirror-HOWTO.txt 05-Oct-2012 10:33 7.8K
[TXT] networking-concepts-HOWTO.txt 05-Oct-2012 10:33 28K
[TXT] packet-filtering-HOWTO.txt 05-Oct-2012 10:33 51K
with most of the material from 2001-2003. Rusty Russell is one of the
kernel firewall maintainers. There is also an equally ancient "Linux IP
Masquerade HOWTO" out there
-rw-rw-r-- 1 gferg ldp 708351 Nov 14 2005 IP-Masquerade-HOWTO
Old guy
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| From | Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-17 01:26 -0300 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <87mvwl4qo1.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
| In reply to | #2888 |
Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> writes: > [big snip] > > Old Guy Just dropping in to say thanks for the extensive comments, saved for later reference. There are more important things to do in the tail end of summer than stay hunched over the keyboard. Processing a couple of bushels of tomatoes (and eating vine-ripened ones with every meal), starting on pressing cider as apples are coming on early, getting the last 2 cords of winter wood split and under cover. Or just hanging out outside in the spectacularly lovely weather. Goldenrod and purple asters are in bloom. I'll get back to the masquerade problem by 'n bye. The single imperative need for the laptop with either dialup or masquerade capability (or both) has been met. Further experimentation when we have some bad weather, the gardens are gone by and the wood is all in. We have six seasons in Nova Scotia, y'know? http://bonmot.ca/~daniel/SixSeasons/ -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-17 05:53 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <mtdkga02ud4@news7.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #2904 |
On 2015-09-17, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: > We have six seasons in Nova Scotia, y'know? > > http://bonmot.ca/~daniel/SixSeasons/ Mmmm. Mind if I visit you during Heaven sometime? (I'm currently enjoying the few tomatoes I managed to ripen too.) Although Solstice sounds like fun too, especially if there's room for another fiddler. Out here on the Wet Coast, what with the real estate frenzy and all our grandiose transit schemes, we're settling into the two seasons that some other places have: winter and construction. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-17 04:02 -0300 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <87io794jg5.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
| In reply to | #2905 |
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes: > On 2015-09-17, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: > >> We have six seasons in Nova Scotia, y'know? >> >> http://bonmot.ca/~daniel/SixSeasons/ > > Mmmm. Mind if I visit you during Heaven sometime? Not at all. Of course, once you've verified that Heaven exists/happens here, we'll have to kill you, rather reversing the usual cliche. [optional smilie] > (I'm currently enjoying the few tomatoes I managed to ripen too.) The description *did* say "for very local values". There's a village not 10 miles away, along the river, where there's so much chill fog so often that vine-ripened tomatoes are only a myth. There's a microclimactic boundary so thin between the chill fog zone and ours that sometimes your windshield will fog instantly when driving through it in the cold->warm direction. One friend has (happily without injury) driven into the Petite river as a consequence of this. > Although Solstice sounds like fun too, especially if there's room > for another fiddler. Another fiddler is always good although I'm sadly out of practice with my mandolin and tenor banjo. The weather during Solstice is typically insalubrious but upstaged by piggies, Scotch etc. It's difficult to go on ignoring it for more than a fortnight, hence Huddle. > Out here on the Wet Coast, what with the real estate frenzy and > all our grandiose transit schemes, we're settling into the two > seasons that some other places have: winter and construction. Ah, well, "local" again. Any place near Halifax is a bit like that. Perhaps a better Wet Coast comparison would be Bowens Island. I have a friend there who reports very favorably although he's never mentioned the tomato-ripening index. -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-17 18:02 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <mtev8b324j1@news3.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #2906 |
On 2015-09-17, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: > > Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes: > >> Out here on the Wet Coast, what with the real estate frenzy and >> all our grandiose transit schemes, we're settling into the two >> seasons that some other places have: winter and construction. > > Ah, well, "local" again. Any place near Halifax is a bit like that. > Perhaps a better Wet Coast comparison would be Bowens Island. I have > a friend there who reports very favorably although he's never > mentioned the tomato-ripening index. Bowen Island is starting to attract the attention of the local gentry, but so far the ferry has done a reasonable job of keeping them at bay. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-18 02:05 -0300 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <87k2roxqpb.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
| In reply to | #2909 |
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes: > On 2015-09-17, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: > >> Perhaps a better Wet Coast comparison would be Bowens Island. I have >> a friend there who reports very favorably although he's never >> mentioned the tomato-ripening index. > > Bowen Island is starting to attract the attention of the local gentry, > but so far the ferry has done a reasonable job of keeping them at bay. My friend there is a gentleman but would, I think, be horrified to be thought of as "the gentry". He does like it quiet and is no doubt happy about "ferry...keeping them at bay." Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> wrote: > Hmmm... I known where Bowen Island is, but "Bowens"? ;-) It's even correctly recorded in my address book. Short attention span and like that. :-o -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| From | Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-17 19:14 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <slrnmvm4c3.an6.ibuprofin@planck.phx.az.us> |
| In reply to | #2906 |
On 17 Sep 2015, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<87io794jg5.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>, Mike Spencer wrote:
>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> (I'm currently enjoying the few tomatoes I managed to ripen too.)
It's fairly common for neighbors to share veggies that ripen all at the
same time. I've stopped trying to grow cherry/grape tomatoes, because
several neighbors usually have an oversupply. Beefsteaks and other
full-sized tomatoes... that's a different thing entirely.
>The description *did* say "for very local values". There's a village
>not 10 miles away, along the river, where there's so much chill fog so
>often that vine-ripened tomatoes are only a myth. There's a
>microclimactic boundary so thin between the chill fog zone and ours
>that sometimes your windshield will fog instantly when driving through
>it in the cold->warm direction. One friend has (happily without
>injury) driven into the Petite river as a consequence of this.
Similar and different. Mentioned, my average rainfall is about 11.2",
while the official rain gauge at the airport down-town (26 miles South
and 700 feet lower) is 7.07" annual. This is "The Valley of the Sun"
which means hills surrounding - West clockwise to South, terrain within
30 miles tops out at/above 6500' MSL (city hall down-town is ~1100' MSL).
Other problem is that nearly all of our precip is from thunderstorms -
spotty, because the average cell is about 5 miles in diameter. It can
be raining like mad "here" and nothing a few miles away (hence the 3.5"
std.dev - 2002 was 5.11" while 2005 was 17.44"). This can create freak
winds - there's a half mile of "main" road closed down-town at the moment
while the power company is replacing power poles blown down by a storm
Sunday evening. That's part of the reason the local utilities (power,
phone, cable) are underground in a lot of the "newer" parts of town.
We may have other problems during thunderstorms - you may have heard
news reports of a number of people being swept away in flash flooding
at the Northwest edge of the state (~150 miles/240 km NE of Las Vegas).
We get so little rain here, many roads cross (what are normally empty)
stream/river beds without a bridge. They just pave the road right on
through. Once in a while, the stream/river has water in it (nearly
always a storm "upstream") and it can be very dangerous to try to drive
on - to the extent that the state has a "Stupid Motorist" law (so named)
which says that if you have to be rescued, you have to pay the costs of
the rescue AND your vehicle insurance may not cover water damage or tow
costs for your vehicle. (You KNOW that doesn't stop the idiots...)
>> Out here on the Wet Coast, what with the real estate frenzy and
>> all our grandiose transit schemes,
Voters here just passed a 30 year authorization of an extra 1% general
sales tax, supposedly to fund mass transit. Yeah, right! On the other
hand, builders are putting in three new housing developments 1 and 4
miles South of me - each looks to be ~500 single family homes, each on a
60 by 100 foot lot. Glad I don't have to commute that way any more.
>> we're settling into the two seasons that some other places have:
>> winter and construction.
A lot of construction goes on in winter - it's too hot to work in high
summer days. Pick up a metal tool that's been in the sun? I wouldn't.
>Ah, well, "local" again. Any place near Halifax is a bit like that.
's/near Halifax//'
>Perhaps a better Wet Coast comparison would be Bowens Island.
Hmmm... I known where Bowen Island is, but "Bowens"? ;-)
Old guy
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-18 01:55 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <mtfqub02gpm@news3.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #2912 |
On 2015-09-17, Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> wrote: > On 17 Sep 2015, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article > <87io794jg5.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>, Mike Spencer wrote: > >> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes: >> >>> Out here on the Wet Coast, what with the real estate frenzy and >>> all our grandiose transit schemes, > > Voters here just passed a 30 year authorization of an extra 1% general > sales tax, supposedly to fund mass transit. Yeah, right! They tried that here a few months ago - and got voted down. Transit here is run by a regional authority, appointed by local mayors. It forms a layer between local and provincial governments and is answerable to nobody. Predictably, they are arrogant and irresponsible, and spend money like water - often on schemes that don't work. The general rule is that, given a number of options, they'll pick the most expensive one, because that lets them build bigger monuments to themselves. However badly we might need real transit improvements, nobody trusts TransLink to do a proper job. > On the other hand, builders are putting in three new housing developments > 1 and 4 miles South of me - each looks to be ~500 single family homes, > each on a 60 by 100 foot lot. Oh, big lots. Around here the rule now is 33-foot lots. At least for new developments - our 50-year-old neighbourhood has lot sizes like ours (64x120), but the developers are circling like hungry sharks. > Glad I don't have to commute that way any more. No proper planning of arterial roads? Nah, I didn't think so. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-18 21:22 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <slrnmvp07b.epo.ibuprofin@planck.phx.az.us> |
| In reply to | #2917 |
On 18 Sep 2015, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<mtfqub02gpm@news3.newsguy.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> wrote:
>> Voters here just passed a 30 year authorization of an extra 1%
>> general sales tax, supposedly to fund mass transit. Yeah, right!
>They tried that here a few months ago - and got voted down.
No such luck here - the "Pro" proposition 104 campaign was heavily
financed, and blanketed the mail (17 flyers in the month before the
election). The "Anti" had less than 3% of the "Pro"'s funds, and didn't
even mail out anything. They were basically limited to small road-side
signs ("Just say NO to higher taxes"). Passed 65/35, I think.
>Transit here is run by a regional authority, appointed by local mayors.
>It forms a layer between local and provincial governments and is
>answerable to nobody.
Sounds just like Valley Metro - county wide common brand name for a mix
of agencies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_Metro_(Phoenix)
>> On the other hand, builders are putting in three new housing
>> developments 1 and 4 miles South of me - each looks to be ~500 single
>> family homes, each on a 60 by 100 foot lot.
>Oh, big lots. Around here the rule now is 33-foot lots.
That won't get past the zoning laws here. For single family houses, the
absolute maximum density is 12 houses per acre (3630 sq.ft. lots, less
infrastructure) and the much more common limit is 4 or 6 houses to the
acre (10890 or 7260 sq.ft.). About half the development I'm in (1990)
has large houses (2000-2500 sq.ft) on nominal 70x100 foot lots.
>our 50-year-old neighbourhood has lot sizes like ours (64x120), but the
>developers are circling like hungry sharks.
Lessee, the 1950s castle for Mr. Everyman has a two car garage (16' wide
plus 3' on the side for water heater, washer/dryer. furnace, etc.), and
two 10 foot wide rooms either side of a 3 foot hallway. Add a foot for
five walls, and 3 foot either side of the building for the fire access
and the 6 foot tall privacy wall, and that's 50 foot of frontage. How
about 20 streets (each with 2 travel and two parking lanes) to the mile,
and that's about 230/2 feet deep... yeah, that seems about right. The
first house I owned (about 35 mi SSE of San Francisco) was a 3/1 with
1014 square feet on a 52x108 lot - built in 1951, pretty much fit that
description. "Zillo" says the place I grew up in (~90 mi NE of New York
City) was 1456 sq. ft. (2 story + basement) on a 75x140 lot. It was
built in 1910, and hence larger, but no garage.
>> Glad I don't have to commute that way any more.
>No proper planning of arterial roads? Nah, I didn't think so.
If you look at street maps for North American cities West of a line
from say Sudbury, ON to New Orleans, LA, you'll often find the place is
laid out in a N/S-E/W grid, WHERE TERRAIN PERMITS (and where layouts
pre-dating the 1850s haven't screwed things up already) with arterials
every mile (and 8 to 22 more residential streets in-between). I'm not
counting the freeways (or other limited access highways) as there's
normally not that many of them (although were they exist, they often
carry a substantial amount of traffic). This side of Phoenix has an
outer loop (20 mile on a side square), and two N/S (Interstate 17 and
State Route 51) with 4-6 lanes in each direction. Backups at exits
where freeway comuters try to merge into city traffic are common.
No, the problem here is that Phoenix is rather large - 519 square miles,
with 7 neighboring cites each over 100 square miles. East/West isn't
too bad (21 miles at the extremes), but it's 45 miles North/South. Now
who would be living that far from down-town? (Mentioned, I'm ~26 miles
from city-hall, and the city extends ~13 miles further North. Only four
of the arterials come out this far in this area. The nearest bus routes
are six miles South and SSW.) There's only 1.45 million people in the
city of Phoenix, or about 2800 per square mile. Except there is a fair
population out here (the development I'm in has about 3000 houses on
roughly a square mile of former ranch-land, and there are five more such
developments nearby).
I can sort of understand higher density in "desirable places" (such as
the major cities of the West coast), where terrain limits areas suited
for housing, but not everywhere is sandwiched between the bay/ocean and
mountains.
Old guy
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| From | Moe Trin <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-17 19:12 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: All better now (Re: Talk to modem with USB to serial adapter: fail) |
| Message-ID | <slrnmvm492.an6.ibuprofin@planck.phx.az.us> |
| In reply to | #2904 |
On 17 Sep 2015, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<87mvwl4qo1.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>, Mike Spencer wrote:
>There are more important things to do in the tail end of summer than
>stay hunched over the keyboard.
We're retired - that's always the case now.
>Processing a couple of bushels of tomatoes (and eating vine-ripened
>ones with every meal),
Gardens here are much smaller - I never have more than a dozen tomato
plants - usually 4-6 producing at a time. Two problems here are water
(you get more rain in your driest month than I get all year - my ten
year running average is 11.2", but the standard deviation is 3.5"), and
birds. My three veggie gardens (total area about 150 square foot) are
"drip irrigated" and under bird-netting (3/4 inch mesh). But I'm just
starting my early winter tomatoes and beans - I'll start another batch
next month which should carry me through February or so.
>starting on pressing cider as apples are coming on early,
To hot for those here - I am getting oranges and grapefruit though.
>getting the last 2 cords of winter wood split and under cover.
There's about a half cord stacked next to the fence - but it's rarely
used. When a fire would be nice, the air-quality district has usually
declared a "no-burn" day (no fires allowed) because weather traps the
smoke in the valley (often an inversion layer - warm air aloft, cooler
air below). Most of the rest of the time, you don't need/want a fire.
>Or just hanging out outside in the spectacularly lovely weather.
Pretty soon - forecaster is saying we'll be below 102F/39C till the
weekend - maybe even below that next week.
>We have six seasons in Nova Scotia, y'know?
We have the usual four - but you have to look sharply, or you'll miss
spring and fall. What some people call winter, we know it as "snow-bird"
season, when we get visitors fleeing the frozen north-lands. Two of my
(part-time) neighbors are from BC and Manitoba.
Old guy
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