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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #350884 > unrolled thread

A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye

Started by7 <7@enemygadgets.com>
First post2016-04-19 21:54 +0000
Last post2016-04-26 19:54 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 443 — 25 participants

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Contents

  A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-19 21:54 +0000
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-19 15:02 -0700
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-19 22:13 +0000
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye brexit insanity <aslsfijasslkjfhwe22jads@oasdfasfs.org> - 2016-04-19 22:22 +0000
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-19 15:44 -0700
      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-19 17:47 -0700
      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-20 21:51 +0000
        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-20 15:06 -0700
          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-20 15:27 -0700
        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-21 12:13 -0500
          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-21 20:13 +0200
            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-21 12:02 -0700
              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-21 13:15 -0700
                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-21 13:52 -0700
                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-21 15:03 -0700
                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 00:04 -0700
                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-22 10:13 +0200
                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 01:25 -0700
                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-22 14:22 +0200
                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-22 07:35 -0500
                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 09:27 -0700
                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-22 23:21 +0200
                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 14:38 -0700
                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-23 00:03 +0200
                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 15:10 -0700
                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-23 00:23 +0200
                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 15:33 -0700
                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-23 01:00 +0200
                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 16:13 -0700
                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 02:07 +0200
                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 17:15 -0700
                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 02:34 +0200
                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 17:37 -0700
                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 02:56 +0200
                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 18:06 -0700
                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 03:29 +0200
                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 18:32 -0700
                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 03:46 +0200
                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 18:49 -0700
                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 03:55 +0200
                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 19:08 -0700
                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-23 12:32 +0200
                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 12:34 +0200
                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-23 08:08 -0700
                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-23 09:23 -0700
                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-23 09:22 -0700
                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-23 09:41 -0700
                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-23 09:53 -0700
                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-23 09:33 -0700
                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-23 10:01 -0700
                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-23 10:24 -0700
                                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-23 11:13 -0700
                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-23 11:34 -0700
                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-23 12:20 -0700
                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 10:52 -0700
                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 16:01 -0400
                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-24 13:36 -0700
                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-24 16:36 -0700
                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 23:28 -0700
                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 12:05 -0700
                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-25 12:10 -0700
                                                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 12:12 -0700
                                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-25 12:18 -0700
                                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 12:35 -0700
                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-25 12:58 -0700
                                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 13:10 -0700
                                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-25 13:17 -0700
                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 13:20 -0700
                                                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 14:24 -0700
                                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 14:31 -0700
                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 23:28 -0700
                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-24 17:37 -0700
                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-23 20:00 +0000
                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-23 23:38 -0700
                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-24 15:58 +0000
                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 10:33 -0700
                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-24 18:52 +0000
                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 12:00 -0700
                                                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-24 19:31 +0000
                                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 12:37 -0700
                                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-24 21:12 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 12:48 -0700
                                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-25 22:14 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 15:43 -0700
                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-25 23:07 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 16:15 -0700
                                                                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 02:13 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 19:38 -0700
                                                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 02:46 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 19:50 -0700
                                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 19:49 -0700
                                                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 02:57 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 19:59 -0700
                                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 03:35 +0000
                                                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 20:46 -0700
                                                                                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 03:58 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 21:03 -0700
                                                                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 04:13 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 21:22 -0700
                                                                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 04:41 +0000
                                                                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 21:50 -0700
                                                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 05:09 +0000
                                                                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 22:13 -0700
                                                                                                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 05:39 +0000
                                                                                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 22:41 -0700
                                                                                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 05:58 +0000
                                                                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 22:59 -0700
                                                                                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 06:06 +0000
                                                                                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-26 08:52 -0700
                                                                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 09:35 -0700
                                                                                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-26 09:38 -0700
                                                                                                                                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 09:48 -0700
                                                                                                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-26 09:54 -0700
                                                                                                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 09:56 -0700
                                                                                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-26 10:04 -0700
                                                                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-26 16:57 +0000
                                                                                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-26 10:13 -0700
                                                                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 05:38 +0000
                                                                                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-27 00:37 -0700
                                                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 05:29 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-27 00:36 -0700
                                                                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 14:18 +0000
                                                                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-04-27 20:06 -0600
                                                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-28 04:15 +0200
                                                                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-04-28 15:32 -0600
                                                                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-26 06:25 +0200
                                                                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 21:28 -0700
                                                                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-26 06:37 +0200
                                                                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 21:49 -0700
                                                                                                                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-26 06:58 +0200
                                                                                                                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 22:12 -0700
                                                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-04-24 15:11 -0600
                                                                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 12:52 -0700
                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-25 13:35 -0700
                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-25 13:43 -0700
                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-25 18:16 -0700
                                                                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-04-25 15:20 -0600
                                                                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 14:58 -0700
                                                                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-04-26 15:48 -0600
                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 15:45 -0700
                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-23 00:59 +0200
                                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 16:13 -0700
                                          Plonk Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 19:57 -0400
                                            Re: Plonk "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 20:15 -0400
                                              Re: Plonk Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 21:02 -0400
                                            Keep talking Chris Ahlstrom Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 21:19 -0400
                                            Re: Plonk "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 17:46 -0400
                                              Re: Plonk Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-24 23:30 -0700
                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 19:32 -0400
                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 09:26 -0700
                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 19:30 -0400
                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 16:32 -0700
                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 04:55 +0000
                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-27 00:35 -0700
                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-27 04:01 -0700
                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 05:24 -0700
                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-22 06:06 -0700
                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 07:04 -0700
                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-22 08:04 -0700
                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 08:30 -0700
                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-22 09:56 -0700
                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 10:28 -0700
                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-22 12:44 -0700
                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 13:44 -0700
                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-22 14:19 -0700
                                  Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 13:07 -0700
                                    Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 16:38 -0400
                                      Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 14:36 -0700
                                        Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 18:07 -0400
                                          Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 15:20 -0700
                                            Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 19:48 -0400
                                              Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 20:44 -0400
                                                "Richand King", yet another nym of a long-time troll Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 21:00 -0400
                                                  Ask Chris Ahlstrom about.... Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 21:22 -0400
                                                  Re: "Richand King", yet another nym of a long-time troll chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-25 07:48 -0500
                                                    Re: "Richand King", yet another nym of a long-time troll William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-25 14:07 +0100
                                                Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 19:04 -0700
                                                  Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-22 22:53 -0700
                                                    Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 23:24 -0700
                                                      Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-23 13:35 +0100
                                                        Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-23 08:04 -0700
                                                        Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-25 07:33 -0500
                                                          Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-25 10:14 -0700
                                                          Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-25 10:50 -0700
                                                            Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-25 10:53 -0700
                                                        Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-26 12:01 -0400
                                                      Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-23 08:10 -0700
                                              Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-23 13:31 +0100
                                            Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-25 07:29 -0500
                                              Re: Marek Novotny is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-25 09:28 -0400
                                      Marek Novotny appreciates the beauty of certain 1990's tech Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 19:45 -0400
                                        Chris Ahlstrom Makes an ASS of himself again Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 21:11 -0400
                                        Re: Marek Novotny appreciates the beauty of certain 1990's tech William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-23 13:30 +0100
                                    Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 19:42 -0400
                                      Chris Ahlstrom... Asshole of the year. Just ask Jayne Ahlstrom, his wife. Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 21:07 -0400
                                      Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 18:29 -0700
                                        Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 03:32 +0200
                                          Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 19:40 -0700
                                            Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 05:15 +0200
                                              Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 20:31 -0700
                                              Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-23 07:28 -0400
                                                Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-23 13:43 +0200
                                                  Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-23 06:56 -0700
                                                    Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-23 14:27 -0400
                                                      Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-23 11:46 -0700
                                                        Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-24 17:49 -0700
                                                        Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-24 18:35 -0700
                                                  Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990. Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-23 14:26 -0400
                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 09:42 -0700
                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 10:26 -0700
                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 12:45 -0700
                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 14:08 -0700
                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 14:24 -0700
                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 14:54 -0700
                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 15:10 -0700
                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 15:16 -0700
                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 16:01 -0700
                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 16:18 -0700
                                          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 19:59 -0400
                                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 17:04 -0700
                              A Big Appil beam in his eye Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 19:55 -0400
                                Re: A Big Appil beam in his eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 17:03 -0700
                                  Re: A Big Appil beam in his eye Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 21:01 -0400
                                    Re: A Big Appil beam in his eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 18:07 -0700
                                    Chris Ahlstrom's Obsession With People He Claims to Have Filtered. Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 21:18 -0400
                                  Re: A Big Appil beam in his eye JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2016-04-22 20:52 -0500
                                    Re: A Big Appil beam in his eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 19:08 -0700
                                Re: A Big Appil beam in his eye "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 20:11 -0400
                                  Re: A Big Appil beam in his eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 17:15 -0700
                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 12:54 -0700
                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 14:10 -0700
                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 14:24 -0700
                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 20:02 -0400
                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 17:03 -0700
                            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 13:10 -0700
                              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 14:25 -0700
                                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 14:26 -0700
                                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 14:46 -0700
                                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 15:03 -0700
                                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-22 15:14 -0700
                                        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 15:17 -0700
            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-21 22:16 +0200
          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-21 20:23 +0000
            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-21 12:53 -0700
              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-21 23:07 +0000
                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-21 19:44 -0400
                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-21 23:58 -0700
                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-22 10:10 +0200
                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 01:24 -0700
                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-22 10:58 +0100
                    The Appil of my eye Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 05:40 -0400
                      Re: The Appil of my eye Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-22 11:02 +0100
                        Re: The Appil of my eye Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-22 11:44 +0100
                        Re: The Appil of my eye frederick <fakeemail@gmail.com> - 2016-04-23 00:31 +0100
                      Re: The Appil of my eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 09:25 -0700
                        Re: The Appil of my eye Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 15:09 -0400
                          Re: The Appil of my eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 12:31 -0700
                            Re: The Appil of my eye Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-22 22:57 +0200
                              Re: The Appil of my eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 13:58 -0700
                                Re: The Appil of my eye Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 19:53 -0400
                                  Re: The Appil of my eye Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-25 11:11 +0100
                                  Re: The Appil of my eye chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-25 07:18 -0500
                                    Re: The Appil of my eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-25 19:40 -0700
                            Re: The Appil of my eye Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 19:52 -0400
                              Re: The Appil of my eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 17:02 -0700
                                Re: The Appil of my eye Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-22 21:03 -0400
                                  Chris Ahlstrom a Pansy... Richard King <kingsley651@webby.org> - 2016-04-22 21:15 -0400
                              Re: The Appil of my eye JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2016-04-22 20:55 -0500
                                Re: The Appil of my eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 19:39 -0700
                      Re: The Appil of my eye "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-22 19:34 -0400
                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-22 02:51 -0700
                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-23 10:04 +0000
                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-23 06:46 -0700
                    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-23 09:26 -0700
                      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-23 09:50 -0700
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-19 19:40 -0400
      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-20 21:10 +0000
      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-21 12:07 -0400
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-20 16:42 +0100
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye "Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net> - 2016-04-21 12:16 -0400
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye frederick <fakeemail@gmail.com> - 2016-04-21 21:42 +0100
    A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye "Drummer"<drummer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-22 05:17 +0200
    Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-26 06:02 -0700
      Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 07:01 -0700
        Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-26 07:20 -0700
          Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 07:28 -0700
            Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-26 07:56 -0700
              Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 08:02 -0700
                Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-26 08:16 -0700
                  Re: A Big Linux Cock pokes out half of Appils eye Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 08:46 -0700
                    His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-26 20:41 +0000
                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 14:21 -0700
                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-26 14:24 -0700
                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-26 18:27 -0400
                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 15:37 -0700
                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-26 18:55 -0400
                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 16:48 -0700
                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-26 16:55 -0700
                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 17:09 -0700
                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-26 20:36 -0400
                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-27 10:11 +0100
                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 00:07 +0000
                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 17:11 -0700
                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 00:18 +0000
                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 17:29 -0700
                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 00:38 +0000
                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 17:47 -0700
                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 01:03 +0000
                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 18:10 -0700
                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 01:26 +0000
                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-26 18:37 -0700
                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 02:48 +0000
                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-27 06:25 -0400
                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 07:49 -0700
                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 14:54 +0000
                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 08:11 -0700
                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 07:59 -0700
                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-27 16:33 +0100
                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 08:52 -0700
                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-27 17:35 +0100
                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-27 15:57 -0400
                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 13:10 -0700
                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-27 10:07 -0500
                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 10:19 -0700
                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-27 20:59 +0200
                                                          Thing Digest chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-27 14:33 -0500
                                                            Re: Thing Digest vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 20:18 +0000
                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 00:05 +0000
                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 00:14 +0000
                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 00:23 +0000
                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 00:42 +0000
                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 00:51 +0000
                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-27 20:32 -0400
                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 00:59 +0000
                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 02:40 +0000
                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-27 10:18 +0100
                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 14:00 +0000
                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 07:57 -0700
                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-27 16:37 +0100
                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 09:03 -0700
                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-27 13:07 -0400
                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 17:45 +0000
                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 16:23 +0000
                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 10:24 -0700
                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 10:30 -0700
                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 11:18 -0700
                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 12:26 -0700
                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 12:46 -0700
                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 20:15 +0000
                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 13:33 -0700
                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 21:31 +0000
                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 14:35 -0700
                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 14:54 -0700
                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 14:42 -0700
                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-27 23:51 +0200
                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 15:00 -0700
                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 21:53 +0000
                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 14:59 -0700
                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 15:35 -0700
                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 20:34 +0000
                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 13:48 -0700
                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-27 23:29 +0200
                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 14:36 -0700
                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-27 23:48 +0200
                                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 15:01 -0700
                                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 15:49 -0700
                                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 23:12 +0000
                                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 17:27 -0700
                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 23:12 +0000
                                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 23:18 +0000
                                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 17:25 -0700
                                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 00:53 +0000
                                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 18:06 -0700
                                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 01:33 +0000
                                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 18:50 -0700
                                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 02:03 +0000
                                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 19:26 -0700
                                                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 05:23 +0000
                                                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 23:44 -0700
                                                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 07:14 +0000
                                                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 00:42 -0700
                                                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 08:26 +0000
                                                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-28 10:11 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 06:48 -0700
                                                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 06:46 -0700
                                                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 23:48 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 17:00 -0700
                                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-28 06:34 -0500
                                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 20:49 +0000
                                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 13:51 -0700
                                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 17:29 -0700
                                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 00:54 +0000
                                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 18:04 -0700
                                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 01:13 +0000
                                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 18:26 -0700
                                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 01:32 +0000
                                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 18:45 -0700
                                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 02:12 +0000
                                                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 19:26 -0700
                                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 18:46 -0700
                                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 02:11 +0000
                                                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 19:29 -0700
                                                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 02:58 +0000
                                                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 20:03 -0700
                                                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 03:19 +0000
                                                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 20:35 -0700
                                                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 10:47 -0700
                                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 18:46 -0700
                                                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 02:04 +0000
                                                                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 19:30 -0700
                                                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 03:00 +0000
                                                                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 20:08 -0700
                                                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-28 03:29 +0000
                                                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-27 20:41 -0700
                                                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 09:09 -0700
                                                                        Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 19:28 -0700
                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 13:43 -0700
                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 10:12 -0400
                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:24 -0700
                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 10:31 -0700
                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 13:54 -0700
                                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 14:10 -0700
                                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-27 23:21 +0200
                                                                  Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 14:30 -0700
                                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 09:54 -0400
                                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 11:21 -0700
                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-27 11:48 -0400
                                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-27 09:10 -0700
                                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 09:53 -0400
                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-04-27 20:11 -0600
                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 02:11 +0000
                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 02:48 +0000
                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-27 10:17 +0100
                                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-27 07:21 -0500
                                          Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-27 11:48 -0400
                                    Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-26 20:37 -0400
                                      Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-27 00:45 +0000
                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-27 10:49 -0400
                            Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-26 20:01 -0400
                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 02:19 +0000
                                Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-27 07:26 -0500
                              Re: His Nibs #3's manifesto, debunked chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-27 09:48 -0500
                  A Big anti-Linux K00k Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-26 19:54 -0400

Page 11 of 23 — ← Prev page 1 … 9 10 [11] 12 13 … 23  Next page →


#351429 — Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2016-04-23 07:28 -0400
SubjectRe: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.
Message-ID<nffmb0$qui$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#351405
Melzzzzz wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> I was pretty stubborn in using text based interface at work, on Linux,
> 'till I started to use X in about 2001 or so. Now, I cant live without
> GUI...

My main tools (tmux, vim, mutt, slrn, cgdb, gcc/g++, git/svn) are all
workable without a GUI.

The GUI is helpful in making more things visible/reachable at one, of
course.  But I've noticed that it becomes a crutch.  For example, I've heard
people (highly intelligent people, who work with complex code bases) state
that they "need" TortoiseSVN, that figuring out the svn commands and the
console pipelines are "too difficult".  But others find that the console
fits their workflow better.

Same with MySQL Workbench versus using the mysql command line.

Same with an IDE versus a few consoles/tmux panes and powerful console
tools.

Often, we use a mix of GUI and console tools, almost seamlessly.

Choice is good.

-- 
You could live a better life, if you had a better mind and a better body.

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#351433 — Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.

FromMelzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com>
Date2016-04-23 13:43 +0200
SubjectRe: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.
Message-ID<20160423134307.61ffdf43@maxa-pc>
In reply to#351429
On Sat, 23 Apr 2016 07:28:40 -0400
Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

> Melzzzzz wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
> 
> > I was pretty stubborn in using text based interface at work, on
> > Linux, 'till I started to use X in about 2001 or so. Now, I cant
> > live without GUI...  
> 
> My main tools (tmux, vim, mutt, slrn, cgdb, gcc/g++, git/svn) are all
> workable without a GUI.
> 
> The GUI is helpful in making more things visible/reachable at one, of
> course.  But I've noticed that it becomes a crutch.  For example,
> I've heard people (highly intelligent people, who work with complex
> code bases) state that they "need" TortoiseSVN, that figuring out the
> svn commands and the console pipelines are "too difficult".  But
> others find that the console fits their workflow better.
> 
> Same with MySQL Workbench versus using the mysql command line.
> 
> Same with an IDE versus a few consoles/tmux panes and powerful console
> tools.
> 
> Often, we use a mix of GUI and console tools, almost seamlessly.
> 
> Choice is good.
> 

Don;t get me wrong. I use git, joe, make, gcc and plethora of tools all
from command line. Just I can't work without X any more. That is I
listen radio stream, browse web, receive emails and follow newsgroups,
chat ... all in GUI programs....

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351452 — Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-23 06:56 -0700
SubjectRe: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.
Message-ID<IfSdneqJ0Z5h44bKnZ2dnUU7-IWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#351433
On 2016-04-23, Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> wrote:
> Don;t get me wrong. I use git, joe, make, gcc and plethora of tools all
> from command line. Just I can't work without X any more. That is I
> listen radio stream, browse web, receive emails and follow newsgroups,
> chat ... all in GUI programs....

I do those things as well. That's what is good about the GUI. I can see
several things at once. I don't hate the GUI. I like both. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351517 — Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2016-04-23 14:27 -0400
SubjectRe: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.
Message-ID<nfgesp$gvp$6@dont-email.me>
In reply to#351452
Marek Novotny wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 2016-04-23, Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> wrote:
>> Don;t get me wrong. I use git, joe, make, gcc and plethora of tools all
>> from command line. Just I can't work without X any more. That is I
>> listen radio stream, browse web, receive emails and follow newsgroups,
>> chat ... all in GUI programs....
>
> I do those things as well. That's what is good about the GUI. I can see
> several things at once. I don't hate the GUI. I like both. 

Same here.  Use what fits.  At least on Linux, if you lose the GUI,
you can continue working.  Windows?  Dead in the water.

-- 
I think we are in Rats' Alley where the dead men lost their bones.
		-- T.S. Eliot

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351522 — Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-23 11:46 -0700
SubjectRe: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.
Message-ID<GOSdnYk54NuTXobKnZ2dnUU7-e3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#351517
On 2016-04-23, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
> Marek Novotny wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 2016-04-23, Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> wrote:
>>> Don;t get me wrong. I use git, joe, make, gcc and plethora of tools all
>>> from command line. Just I can't work without X any more. That is I
>>> listen radio stream, browse web, receive emails and follow newsgroups,
>>> chat ... all in GUI programs....
>>
>> I do those things as well. That's what is good about the GUI. I can see
>> several things at once. I don't hate the GUI. I like both. 
>
> Same here.  Use what fits.  At least on Linux, if you lose the GUI,
> you can continue working.  Windows?  Dead in the water.

yeah, that's a big deal. Windows users really depend on the GUI. When I
was a field tech if Windows went to console you should have seen the
panic on those tech's faces. 

I started on NetWare 3.12 as my very first NOS in 1994. And I grew up on
the VIC20, Commie 64 for over half a decade. So I was quite okay with a
command line. If I wanted to print, open a file, load a program, get
into a terminal or whatever, from 1977 to 1986 or 87 I used nothing but
text to do so. So ten years of only text based systems means you are
okay with text. Text is how I start. Even now at the almost age of 48
think about the context. About 20% of my current life time was spent
entirely in text mode operating systems. 

It wasn't until I got an Amiga that I totally went GUI. I even went back
to text mode on my first PCs which were years after the Amiga. I started
to mix things up in between the Amiga 2000 and the 3000. Between those
two releases I had my first Mac and I built my very first 286. The 286
was only used for terminal. And I eventually got it in my head that it
would be easier to get UNIX on the PC than on the Amiga. Aamiga UX never
seemed to materialize for me. 

When the 486 was popular and in 1994 is when I got my first taste of
UNIXWare, which was UNIX System V release 4.2. And I built that on a 486
with an amber text mode monitor. I used NetWare 3.12 and Windows 3.1
with DOS until Windows 95 hit and didn't immediately adopt it. I really
hated the Start button when I first saw it. I think I didn't adopt it
for maybe a solid year or so. I ended up going Windows NT 3.1 and I
started certification on 3.5. Primary Domain and BDC model back then.
And NetWare became 4.1 and I got a little taste of their NDS tree.
That's when things finally started being GUI for me. So maybe around
1996 give or take. So year I have arguably 19 years in text mode. 

I don't get scared by it. It seems totally normal to me. What was weird
for me was when Windows switched from being DOS based to being a GUI OS.
Prior to that I had always booted into DOS and typed Win to run Windows.
I would exit windows, then shutdown. Windows was clearly an add-on. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351687 — Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-24 17:49 -0700
SubjectRe: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.
Message-ID<D342B7AE.70D31%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#351522
On 4/23/16, 11:46 AM, in article
GOSdnYk54NuTXobKnZ2dnUU7-e3NnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> On 2016-04-23, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>> Marek Novotny wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>> 
>>> On 2016-04-23, Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> wrote:
>>>> Don;t get me wrong. I use git, joe, make, gcc and plethora of tools all
>>>> from command line. Just I can't work without X any more. That is I
>>>> listen radio stream, browse web, receive emails and follow newsgroups,
>>>> chat ... all in GUI programs....
>>> 
>>> I do those things as well. That's what is good about the GUI. I can see
>>> several things at once. I don't hate the GUI. I like both.
>> 
>> Same here.  Use what fits.  At least on Linux, if you lose the GUI,
>> you can continue working.  Windows?  Dead in the water.
> 
> yeah, that's a big deal. Windows users really depend on the GUI. When I
> was a field tech if Windows went to console you should have seen the
> panic on those tech's faces.

Some do. Some do not. And there are many places the GUI is a great solution.

> I started on NetWare 3.12 as my very first NOS in 1994. And I grew up on
> the VIC20, Commie 64 for over half a decade. So I was quite okay with a
> command line.

I started with Mac, DOS, and UNIX on the same day in 1987. Lead me to like
Macs and UNIX but not DOS. I have no public comments from '87, but as early
as '95 I was writing about this:

  <http://goo.gl/0wHM> Jul 18 1995
    ----- 
    if DOS were a combo of UNIX and Mac it would be cool.  I
    just wish we had something that combined the two. In theory
    that is the way both UNIX and Mac are growing
    ----- 

  <http://goo.gl/EDip> Jul 19 1995
    ----- 
    But UNIX does have some advantages over the Mac... a CLI
    would be a great addition to the Mac.  I would say that
    between Mac and UNIX you have the best operating systems
    around.
    ----- 

  <http://goo.gl/vrLf> Aug 10 1995
    ----- 
    The Mac is not the end all in computer technology.  Where it
    fails, UNIX excels. Between the two, there is almost no task
    that computers would be used for that can not be done.  And
    one or the other will beat the competition in almost every
    area. 
    ----- 

> If I wanted to print, open a file, load a program, get into a terminal or
> whatever, from 1977 to 1986 or 87 I used nothing but text to do so. So ten
> years of only text based systems means you are okay with text. Text is how I
> start. Even now at the almost age of 48 think about the context. About 20% of
> my current life time was spent entirely in text mode operating systems.

And this helps explain your preference for Linux. If you use the CLI mostly
then it is an excellent solution. Absolutely no argument from me on that.

For much of the work I do that would be acceptable solution. Heck, I used to
use Usenet on a CLI and it worked fine. But I also do a lot of image work
and video screencasting, and even with things such as email I will often
attach images (which could be done by the command line, but for images it is
nice to have a visual guide to which you want!) and I often even edit those
images.

Even thinks like web browsing are done FAR better these days with a GUI
(though I recall the days of Gopher and the like).

> It wasn't until I got an Amiga that I totally went GUI. I even went back to
> text mode on my first PCs which were years after the Amiga. I started to mix
> things up in between the Amiga 2000 and the 3000. Between those two releases I
> had my first Mac and I built my very first 286. The 286 was only used for
> terminal. And I eventually got it in my head that it would be easier to get
> UNIX on the PC than on the Amiga. Aamiga UX never seemed to materialize for
> me.

Makes sense. As I show above, I liked the early Macs but really wanted them
to have a UNIX-like command line. Apple listened to me with OS X. :)

Actually also used AU/X... but it was not a common thing for Apple.

> When the 486 was popular and in 1994 is when I got my first taste of UNIXWare,
> which was UNIX System V release 4.2. And I built that on a 486 with an amber
> text mode monitor. I used NetWare 3.12 and Windows 3.1 with DOS until Windows
> 95 hit and didn't immediately adopt it. I really hated the Start button when I
> first saw it. I think I didn't adopt it for maybe a solid year or so. I ended
> up going Windows NT 3.1 and I started certification on 3.5. Primary Domain and
> BDC model back then. And NetWare became 4.1 and I got a little taste of their
> NDS tree. That's when things finally started being GUI for me. So maybe around
> 1996 give or take. So year I have arguably 19 years in text mode.
> 
> I don't get scared by it. It seems totally normal to me. What was weird for me
> was when Windows switched from being DOS based to being a GUI OS. Prior to
> that I had always booted into DOS and typed Win to run Windows. I would exit
> windows, then shutdown. Windows was clearly an add-on.

I do most things in the GUI but am happy to have the CLI. Was never an
expert with it and have gotten rusty over the decades, but still do use it.
Even when not using it directly I have Automoator scripts and the like which
are tied to the command line tools.

-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

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#351695 — Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.

From-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
Date2016-04-24 18:35 -0700
SubjectRe: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.
Message-ID<e835f542-0ad5-4afb-98b2-471ae040f510@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#351522
Marek Novotny wrote:
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> >
> > Same here.  Use what fits.  At least on Linux, if you lose the GUI,
> > you can continue working.  Windows?  Dead in the water.
> 
> yeah, that's a big deal. Windows users really depend on the GUI. 

It really depends on the use case as to how big of a deal it may or may not be.
But the reality is that GUIs have been around for a long time (don't forget that
they predate the digital age) and are going to continue to be so, with reason.

> When I was a field tech if Windows went to console you should have 
> seen the panic on those tech's faces. 

Merely an illustration of level of training.  I related an experience from some
years ago where a Comcast employee expressed highly negative things 
about how hard it was to set up a Mac on their network - - they rattled through 
some of the CLI commands they had to use, etc....whereupon I asked them 
why they weren't simply using the GUI (System Preferences / Control Panel UI)
instead of all that CLI nonsense, and their response was that the Mac didn't have 
a GUI to do it in like Windows does.  Promptly, they were shown where said "does
not exist" does exist - - and their response changed to "My Training Sucked". 
 
> I started on NetWare 3.12 as my very first NOS in 1994...

We all have our own experiences; sounds like you never had the pleasure of
working (working, not as a student) with control cards on a punch deck; that
was the way it was back in the '70s (and into the early '80s).  FWIW, I didn't
really pay much attention to that stuff until a NOS/BE to NOS/VE transition
somewhere around in the early '80s.

> ...So year I have arguably 19 years in text mode. 
> I don't get scared by it. It seems totally normal to me.

CLI's  became quickly recognized as relatively archaic for certain use cases 
and got quickly superseded, not unlike the rotary telephone.  Don't think that
I've ever even seen, let alone owned, a cellular phone which was rotary dial ;-)


> Windows was clearly an add-on. 

IMO, all UI's are "add-ons" pretty much by definition:  its been decades since
we had to manually flip switches to enter binary commands into registers, and 
in those decades, there's been layers & layers of abstraction added to make 
their binary structure have a better & better interface to their analog humans.
However, just like everything else, different UI's have different strengths & 
weaknesses, so one shouldn't assume 'one size fits all' ... the more appropriate
expression would be 'one size fits most', and then recognize that while there
does need to be some accommodation for the exception, we should not allow
the tail to wag the dog.

-hh

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#351515 — Re: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2016-04-23 14:26 -0400
SubjectRe: Marek Novotn is stuck in the U.S. tech culture, circa 1990.
Message-ID<nfgeqb$gvp$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#351433
Melzzzzz wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sat, 23 Apr 2016 07:28:40 -0400
> Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>
>> Melzzzzz wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>> 
>> > I was pretty stubborn in using text based interface at work, on
>> > Linux, 'till I started to use X in about 2001 or so. Now, I cant
>> > live without GUI...  
>> 
>> My main tools (tmux, vim, mutt, slrn, cgdb, gcc/g++, git/svn) are all
>> workable without a GUI.
>> 
>> The GUI is helpful in making more things visible/reachable at one, of
>> course.  But I've noticed that it becomes a crutch.  For example,
>> I've heard people (highly intelligent people, who work with complex
>> code bases) state that they "need" TortoiseSVN, that figuring out the
>> svn commands and the console pipelines are "too difficult".  But
>> others find that the console fits their workflow better.
>> 
>> Same with MySQL Workbench versus using the mysql command line.
>> 
>> Same with an IDE versus a few consoles/tmux panes and powerful console
>> tools.
>> 
>> Often, we use a mix of GUI and console tools, almost seamlessly.
>> 
>> Choice is good.
>
> Don;t get me wrong. I use git, joe, make, gcc and plethora of tools all
> from command line. Just I can't work without X any more. That is I
> listen radio stream, browse web, receive emails and follow newsgroups,
> chat ... all in GUI programs....

You can do all of that solely in a console, as well.  I left out
mpd and its console-based clients.  I use it all the time, GUI or not.

-- 
Q:	How many Californians does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A:	Five.  One to screw in the light bulb and four to share the
		experience.  (Actually, Californians don't screw in
		light bulbs, they screw in hot tubs.)
 
Q:	How many Oregonians does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A:	Three.  One to screw in the light bulb and two to fend off all
		those Californians trying to share the experience.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351272

FromAlan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
Date2016-04-22 09:42 -0700
Message-ID<nfdk8o$6dp$1@news.datemas.de>
In reply to#351246
On 2016-04-22 5:24 AM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> On 2016-04-21 3:03 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-04-21, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>>> On 2016-04-21 1:15 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>>> On 2016-04-21, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Give a specific way that "OSX *is* crap".
>>>>>
>>>>> On your Mac, save an InDesign package with links and fonts. On the
>>>>> source volume confirm the size of those fonts in the file manager.
>>>>
>>>> OK...
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Attach another hard drive and format it for HFS+ journaling.
>>>>>
>>>>> Open the command line on the Mac.
>>>>>
>>>>> Use the built in rsync command to sync the contents of the InDesign
>>>>> package from the source drive to the destination, which should be this
>>>>> new drive you attached. See the man page on how to use the built in
>>>>> rsync.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once the rsync is finished on the target machine examine the file size
>>>>> of the fonts you have synced. See what it says and consider why.
>>>>
>>>> So you use the wrong tools and you get weird results.
>>>
>>> How is this the wrong tool? Apple claims to be UNIX. I am using a tool
>>> that is provided by Apple to sync files from one Mac drive to another
>>> Mac drive. So how is it that I am using the wrong tool? what is the
>>> correct tool?
>>>
>>>> Why would you use the command line to rsync the package to another drive?
>>>
>>> Because I sync work done on a source drive to a destination to keep a
>>> synced copy on a server. These files can change and I just want the most
>>> up to date copy on the server.
>>
>> And there is an Apple tool for that for the end user: Time Machine.
>
> Jez, you can't make this stuff up. Time Machine is personal. rsync puts
> the files on the server or other location where EVERYONE can see it.
> It's just a backup, it's called SHARING. Time Machine is just a backup
> tool.
>
> You just can't accept when someone else makes a solid point. In your
> eyes, everyone else is wrong and Apple is always right. You're the worst
> kind of Apple zealot. Get a grip. Apple isn't the end all be all of
> computing. Hell Apple uses Azure, Amazon AWS and Google. They don't eat
> their own dog food. They love selling it to you though.

1. you're making an extremely edge case here.

2. You don't have to use fonts with resource fork data. Nothing made in 
the last decade would have them.

3. there are version of rsync that support resource forks.

>
>>>>> There are problems I have run into over the years which bother me. There
>>>>> is no refresh on the file browser for example. If I leave a folder
>>>>> opened in which the source is a server share, and then copy something to
>>>>> that server share, it doesn't just show up on the opened folder. Often I
>>>>> have to close the window, re-open it, and hope it updates.
>>>>
>>>> I have used Macs with Mac OS X Server, Windows servers, samba servers...
>>>>
>>>> ...and I've never encountered that problem.
>>>
>>> Then you're not using them all that much. I do this every single day.
>>> Many times a day as I use Macs for optical manufacturing.
>>
>> Sure you do.
>
> Yeah, I do.

Riiiiiiiight.

>
>>>>> Every time I open a folder, it adds a new .DS_Store file to the folder.
>>>>> I had to write a script to remove them because I can't have those files
>>>>> inside some of the products I'm involved with. It's not part of the DVD
>>>>> spec to have .DS_Store files inside the VIDEO_TS directory for example.
>>>>> But once you open such a folder in your Mac, it will add that file
>>>>> automatically and it is hidden so you have to know to fish it out. Open
>>>>> the directory with the GUI and it will pop a fresh one in there for you
>>>>> to fish out.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Windows writes invisible files to folders, but why do you even care
>>>> about them?
>>>
>>> I use Linux mostly. I'm comparing to Linux for the most part. And know
>>> we don't drop a file in every single directory that is opened with a
>>> GUI. OSX sure does though. Every single directory that is opened with a
>>> GUI gets a hidden file.
>>
>> OK. So...   ...what?
>
> LOL. You got nothing Alan. You can't come back with anything at all so
> you resort to this. I answered your question and you can't deal with it.
> It does what I said it does and it contaminates my directories for
> optical manufacturing.

What exactly does "contaminates my directories" mean? How does it 
actually impact what you do?

>
>>>>> If I go back to the something like the PowerPC mac, OSX is completely
>>>>> broken on attaching to SMB shares such that I had to buy DAVE v8x to get
>>>>> a better SMB stack. Otherwise I get a permission issue and cannot write
>>>>> to a share no matter what I do. Luckily Thursby software sells, though
>>>>> they don't support, their older versions so I can still buy v8 for the
>>>>> PowerPC Mac, which Apple has left for dead.
>>>>
>>>> So a version of Mac OS X that hasn't been relevant for nearly 10 years
>>>> had a problem?
>>>
>>> Correction; Has a problem and it was never fixed so it is easy to see.
>>> So my only solution is using someone else's SMB stack cause the most
>>> advanced operating system according to Apple can't connected to an SMB
>>> share correctly.
>>
>> Lots of Macs connect correctly to SMB shares every day.
>
> Yeah, and lots need the help of DAVE to do so. Cause Apple can't program
> an SMB stack to save their lives.

Ummm...

Bad news for you, sunshine: Apple's SMB stack was Samba at the time 
you're talking about.

>
>>>>> Apple still employs GNU BASH 3.2.57 on their latest release. On Linux,
>>>>> we're on v 4.3.11. That's a full generation behind and Apple has been on
>>>>> version 3.x since inception.
>>>>
>>>> And what are the benefits of version 4 vs version 3?
>>>
>>> One I ran into not too long ago was zero padding in brace expansion.
>>> Which is useful in scripting especially using wget to grab photos off
>>> the web. I needed to create a sequence for someone asking about this on
>>> alt.os.linux and I ran into that little gem on the older BASH. Didn't
>>> realize that Apple was still on version 3. So if I want leading zeros,
>>> like echo {01..20} I won't get that desired result from v3. You can type
>>> that into your own shell as an example:
>>>
>>> $ echo {01..20}
>>>
>>> Now try that same thing with bash 4.x on Linux. You'll see the correct
>>> output on Linux. You can just google for version 3 vs 4 or look up new
>>> features in version 4 if you are seriously interested. I doubt you are
>>> so I don't want to waste a lot of time on this. That's one example that
>>> bit me that you can search for on the group as something we did run
>>> into in real life.
>>
>>
>> Wow. That's a show stopper.
>>
>> <yawn>
>
> Yeah, it is.

No. It really isn't.

>
>> Seriously: that's your best example of how Bash 4 is better than Bash 3?
>
> Seriously, you're a dork. When given a solid answer to your question you
> just cover your eyes and refuse to accept it. I'm right on, just deal
> with it.

You mean you can't think of any way to write a bash function that will 
give you what you want...

>
>>>>> On the Mac, how easy is it for the consumer to set the keyboard to
>>>>> something other than Apple's products?For example, if I buy a 3rd party
>>>>> music player, and hit the play button on the keyboard, iTunes is loaded
>>>>> is it not? If you know of a way to program something else let me know.
>>>>> I'd seriously like to. It seems to me that once you buy a Mac, Apple
>>>>> just assumes you love Apple and want Apple to provide everything for
>>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> Use Option-Play. Tested: it works.
>>>
>>> Okay, not what I asked at all. I said I want to hit the play button. You
>>> know on the keyboard, the button marked play/pause. If I do that it
>>> assumes I want to play something from iTunes. Do you know of a way to
>>> change that? I don't. So again, as I said, it seems Apple assumes you
>>> mean to use only their tools.
>>>
>>
>> No. They let you use a different key combination for other tools.
>
> As I said. You cannot re-program the play/pause key. It always assumes
> you want to use iTunes.

Nope. It is possible. It's not even hard.

It's just that it's also not necessary.

Again: Apple not doing things the way you want them to is not the same 
as "OSX is crap".

>
>>>>> If a reseller like The Omni Group wants to sell a product on the Apple
>>>>> Store, then they cannot offer upgrades at an upgrade price. They have to
>>>>> instead sell the whole product over again. Not cool. They can sell it
>>>>> outside of Apple's store, but then they lose out on what Apple is trying
>>>>> to create, which is a one-stop store that allows us to manage our
>>>>> software purchases easily. I'd rather buy from the Apple store because
>>>>> installing again is simple.
>>>>
>>>> So you rail against Apple wanting everything to be Apple, but now you
>>>> want your apps to all come from the Apple App Store...
>>>
>>> I want them to offer upgrade pricing. Upgrades at reduced pricing has
>>> been a staple of software sales for more than 20 years. Just not on
>>> Apple's store.
>>
>> So don't buy from the Apple App store.
>
> Yeah, as I said again.

Right, as you hypocritically said... ...again.

>
>>>>> Other issues are more hardware related. They don't sell a tower with
>>>>> internal optical drives, which I need. You have to get the garbage can
>>>>> and then attach them external. USB optical drives don't perform well and
>>>>> FirweWire seems to be on it's way out leaving with USB which isn't good.
>>>>> There are no Thunderport optical drives that I'm aware of.
>>>>
>>>> USB 3 optical drives "don't perform well"? In what way?
>>>
>>> try burning a Blu-ray at high speed on USB. It always gives me slower
>>> speeds. On internal drives I get the full speed the drive offers and on
>>> FireWire I also got the full speed. On USB drives I have yet to find one
>>> that burns faster than an average of 3x to 4x.
>>
>> And there is a $35 Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter...
>
> As I already said, FireWire devices are going out and we're left with
> USB. GUess you forgot what the topic is cause you're too busy avoiding
> it.

How do you know FireWire devices are "going" out, and if you have a 
device and they stop making others, how does it affect YOUR device?

>
>>>>> Suppose I want to connect a DLT drive, which I still use for the Mac.
>>>>> There are no PCI slots in the tower, so again I'd have to find an
>>>>> external bridge device adding to the cost and it gets difficult to find
>>>>> support since vendors know Apple doesn't really support these third
>>>>> party options. ATTO was the last one I saw which for a while had good
>>>>> support for Apple.
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.sonnettech.com/PRODUCT/thunderbolt/index.html>
>>>>
>>>> Pick the expansion system that meets your requirements.
>>>>
>>>> Or go with this:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.sonnettech.com/PRODUCT/echo15thunderboltdock.html>
>>>>
>>>> Optical drive, eSATA, Firewire, a drive bay...
>>>>
>>>> ...and it's about 8x8" so you can sit your Mac Pro right on top.
>>>
>>> Yeah, as I said, I have to buy a bridge. It would be better of Apple
>>> just offered us a tower with 5.25" drive bays and PCI expansion. That is
>>> the standard.
>>
>> Apple not offering what you claim you want doesn't make what they offer
>> "crap".
>
> It does and it is. I had to buy DAVE to get a proper SMB stack.

So Samba was "crap"

> The
> built in rsync destroys the resource fork, HFS plus sucks ass.

So install one that doesn't, you claim you're so clever with the terminal...

> BASH is
> out dated.

In one trivial way.

> There are no PCI slots in any Mac sold today by Apple.

But you can add them if you need them. And the operating system is no 
better or worse from it in any case.

> There
> are no options for built in optical blu-ray drives by the manufacturer.

Which again, doesn't say anything about OS X.

> They basically suck. Your choices are limited. In the Linux and even
> Windows worlds, we have a ton of choices.

Which doesn't say anything about the quality of the OS.

>
>>>>> Apple is happy to drop things and move on. Like DVD Studio Pro. Like
>>>>> dropping Final Cut Pro from 7 and going to X which isn't very good,
>>>>> hence the strong migration to Windows and Premiere or back to Avid.
>>>>> Apple is just clearly a consumer company. They have almost no enterprise
>>>>> focus at all it seems to me. Great for mom and dad but for offices they
>>>>> feel more like a nightmware to me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is significant difference between "not offering what I happen to
>>>> want" and "crap".
>>>
>>> Hey, I don't think I said crap. I'm not the Op originator either. I'm
>>> merely answering the question you posed when the op said crap and you
>>> asked what wasn't so hot on OSX. So I can think of a few things I don't
>>> care for so I replied.
>>
>> That was the question you were replying to:
>>
>> 'Give a specific way that "OSX *is* crap".'
>
> And I gave solid reasons. Issues I run into on a daily basis.

No. You gave reasons why OS X doesn't do a few very oddball things you 
claim you need it to do, and some of them weren't even about the OS.

>
>> So you gave replies that you now claim don't say it was crap and that
>> actually aren't OS X problems at all.
>
> No, that's a stretch. They are problems. Just deal with reality Alan.
> OSX is fine for mom and dad, but real computer users need a bit more
> than Apple offers.

LOL!

The old "real computer users" canard...



>

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#351276

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-22 10:26 -0700
Message-ID<vLWdnTDDGb9Vw4fKnZ2dnUU7-W3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#351272
On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> On 2016-04-22 5:24 AM, Marek Novotny wrote:

// snip

>> Jez, you can't make this stuff up. Time Machine is personal. rsync puts
>> the files on the server or other location where EVERYONE can see it.
>> It's just a backup, it's called SHARING. Time Machine is just a backup
>> tool.
>>
>> You just can't accept when someone else makes a solid point. In your
>> eyes, everyone else is wrong and Apple is always right. You're the worst
>> kind of Apple zealot. Get a grip. Apple isn't the end all be all of
>> computing. Hell Apple uses Azure, Amazon AWS and Google. They don't eat
>> their own dog food. They love selling it to you though.
>
> 1. you're making an extremely edge case here.

Nope. You just want to marginalize my example. 

> 2. You don't have to use fonts with resource fork data. Nothing made in 
> the last decade would have them.

Wrong again. I don't get to pick what clients bring to me. If they have
files and fonts such as from Quark 4.x days then they do. And I have to
work on those, I'd like to store the changes on my server, both their
original and my changes. And if those files make use of something other
than older fonts which use the resource fork, then they do. 

Now, I brought a specific example of where Apple's own tools do not work
with their own resource fork. You're apologizing for them. 

> 3. there are version of rsync that support resource forks.

So, please install one and list all the steps you had to take to do so.
And even so, it doesn't change the fact that Apple's own OSX, which
gives me rsync still strips the resource fork from their own HFS file
system. You just don't seem to want to acknowledge this FACT. It's their
OS. Why do I have to be bothered with replacing their own commands? Yet
another problem. So you're basically saying I should replace Apple's
command every single time I upgrade or buy a new Mac cause the command
Apple provides is sub-par. I agree. It is sub-par. Hence why I brought
it up in the first place. 

// snip

>> Yeah, I do.
>
> Riiiiiiiight.

Ah, can't deal with it huh? 

// snip

>> LOL. You got nothing Alan. You can't come back with anything at all so
>> you resort to this. I answered your question and you can't deal with it.
>> It does what I said it does and it contaminates my directories for
>> optical manufacturing.
>
> What exactly does "contaminates my directories" mean? How does it 
> actually impact what you do?

I told you. It was just over your head. It is against the DVD
specification to have anything other than VOB, BUP and INF files in the
VIDEO_TS directory. And I manufacture DVDs and Blu-rays. I use PowerPC
Macs as part of the pipeline to prep DVDs from VIDEO_TS to DDP for
mastering. If anyone so much as opens a VIDEO_TS directory on the server
from a Mac client, that Mac will contaminate the directory causing it to
break the specification and thus be unfit for manufacturing. So I have
to write a shell script which traverses those and removes such files. Sometimes
more than once.

// snip

>> Yeah, and lots need the help of DAVE to do so. Cause Apple can't program
>> an SMB stack to save their lives.
>
> Ummm...
>
> Bad news for you, sunshine: Apple's SMB stack was Samba at the time 
> you're talking about.

Not bad news for me at all. See on Linux, we do this really cool thing
you might have heard about... We update. Apple doesn't. Hell I can run
Linux on that PowerPC and use a modern SMB stack. Once that keeps
updating with the times. Even so, Apple's stack is still broken. Just
because they /tried/ to implement Samba doesn't mean they did a good
job. Obviously they didn't as it doesn't work correctly. Hence the need
for DAVE. I know I know, the logic must be killing you. 

// snip

>> Yeah, it is.
>
> No. It really isn't.

LOL. When faced with something you don't like, you a pull a clown show
and say it doesn't matter. Run and hind little boy... Reality isn't
pretty for the Mac. Here, have more koolaid... 

>>> Seriously: that's your best example of how Bash 4 is better than Bash 3?
>>
>> Seriously, you're a dork. When given a solid answer to your question you
>> just cover your eyes and refuse to accept it. I'm right on, just deal
>> with it.
>
> You mean you can't think of any way to write a bash function that will 
> give you what you want...

I have a way that works. And all modern bash versions use this syntax.
I can't help it if Apple's claim of most advanced operating system uses
tools from 7 years ago. Perhaps you forgot what "most advanced" actually
means... I'll help you out. It doesn't mean 7 year old tools. 

// snip

>> As I said. You cannot re-program the play/pause key. It always assumes
>> you want to use iTunes.
>
> Nope. It is possible. It's not even hard.
>
> It's just that it's also not necessary.
>
> Again: Apple not doing things the way you want them to is not the same 
> as "OSX is crap".

So, do tell. How do I alter the media key for play/pause so that iTunes
is not spawned and something else is. Something of my choosing. 

// snip

>> As I already said, FireWire devices are going out and we're left with
>> USB. GUess you forgot what the topic is cause you're too busy avoiding
>> it.
>
> How do you know FireWire devices are "going" out, and if you have a 
> device and they stop making others, how does it affect YOUR device?

Means I am seeing less and less of them. Hell, go to MacSales AKA OWC
and count how many FireWire BD drives you see and let me know what you
find. 

// snip


>> It does and it is. I had to buy DAVE to get a proper SMB stack.
>
> So Samba was "crap"

No, Samba is fine. Apple are idiots and can't implement it properly.
Hence having to buy DAVE. 

>> The
>> built in rsync destroys the resource fork, HFS plus sucks ass.
>
> So install one that doesn't, you claim you're so clever with the terminal...

yeah, so list all the steps involved to do so. And I guess you'll tell
all users they need to do this cause the OS Apple ships sucks so much
they can't do it for you. They can't support THEIR OWN FILE SYSTEM. How
stupid is that...

>> BASH is
>> out dated.
>
> In one trivial way.

No, one example was given. You can look at the difference between
versions yourself. 

>> There are no PCI slots in any Mac sold today by Apple.
>
> But you can add them if you need them. And the operating system is no 
> better or worse from it in any case.

Yeah, that's the ticket, buy an expensive computer that doesn't even
have drive bays or PCI slots. Here's another idea, I can buy a Dell PC
that has both. Maybe that's why Apple sells so few Macs into the
enterprise. How's that 4k external monitor for the garbage can working
out? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Th emost advanced monitor you
have comes with the iMac. You can't even buy an Apple monitor that
matches the iMac screen for the very expensive garbage can cause Apple
dropped the ball yet again. In fact the Display Apple does sell, is
super thick. Thicker than the whole iMac and has far less resolution to
boot. So even their flagship garbage can can't match the display of
their consumer iMac. In fact, their iPad has better resolution than the
display for the pro garbage can and monitor. BWHAHAHAHAHA

>> There
>> are no options for built in optical blu-ray drives by the manufacturer.
>
> Which again, doesn't say anything about OS X.

If you say so. 

>> They basically suck. Your choices are limited. In the Linux and even
>> Windows worlds, we have a ton of choices.
>
> Which doesn't say anything about the quality of the OS.

Quality? BWAHAHHAHAHA

// snip

> No. You gave reasons why OS X doesn't do a few very oddball things you 
> claim you need it to do, and some of them weren't even about the OS.

Translation... You totally got pwned and don't want to deal with it. 

>>> So you gave replies that you now claim don't say it was crap and that
>>> actually aren't OS X problems at all.
>>
>> No, that's a stretch. They are problems. Just deal with reality Alan.
>> OSX is fine for mom and dad, but real computer users need a bit more
>> than Apple offers.
>
> LOL!
>
> The old "real computer users" canard...

Yeah, people that actually use the tools. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351283

FromAlan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
Date2016-04-22 12:45 -0700
Message-ID<nfdv1n$ho5$1@news.datemas.de>
In reply to#351276
On 2016-04-22 10:26 AM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> On 2016-04-22 5:24 AM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>
> // snip
>
>>> Jez, you can't make this stuff up. Time Machine is personal. rsync puts
>>> the files on the server or other location where EVERYONE can see it.
>>> It's just a backup, it's called SHARING. Time Machine is just a backup
>>> tool.
>>>
>>> You just can't accept when someone else makes a solid point. In your
>>> eyes, everyone else is wrong and Apple is always right. You're the worst
>>> kind of Apple zealot. Get a grip. Apple isn't the end all be all of
>>> computing. Hell Apple uses Azure, Amazon AWS and Google. They don't eat
>>> their own dog food. They love selling it to you though.
>>
>> 1. you're making an extremely edge case here.
>
> Nope. You just want to marginalize my example.

What percentage of Mac users do you suppose have even HEARD of rsync?

>
>> 2. You don't have to use fonts with resource fork data. Nothing made in
>> the last decade would have them.
>
> Wrong again. I don't get to pick what clients bring to me. If they have
> files and fonts such as from Quark 4.x days then they do. And I have to
> work on those, I'd like to store the changes on my server, both their
> original and my changes. And if those files make use of something other
> than older fonts which use the resource fork, then they do.
>
> Now, I brought a specific example of where Apple's own tools do not work
> with their own resource fork. You're apologizing for them.
>

rsync isn't an Apple tool. It's a leftover.

>> 3. there are version of rsync that support resource forks.
>
> So, please install one and list all the steps you had to take to do so.

<https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=rsync%20resource%20forks>

Fill your boots.

> And even so, it doesn't change the fact that Apple's own OSX, which
> gives me rsync still strips the resource fork from their own HFS file
> system. You just don't seem to want to acknowledge this FACT. It's their

Nope. I completely acknowledge it.

It just isn't relevant for the vast majority of Mac users and for those 
who actually have heard of it, most are bright enough to figure out what 
works instead if they need resource fork support.

> OS. Why do I have to be bothered with replacing their own commands? Yet
> another problem. So you're basically saying I should replace Apple's
> command every single time I upgrade or buy a new Mac cause the command
> Apple provides is sub-par. I agree. It is sub-par. Hence why I brought
> it up in the first place.

Again: Apple not providing you a tool you think you need isn't the same 
as "OSX is crap"

>
> // snip
>
>>> Yeah, I do.
>>
>> Riiiiiiiight.
>
> Ah, can't deal with it huh?
>
> // snip

Looks like you can't prove you do it.

>
>>> LOL. You got nothing Alan. You can't come back with anything at all so
>>> you resort to this. I answered your question and you can't deal with it.
>>> It does what I said it does and it contaminates my directories for
>>> optical manufacturing.
>>
>> What exactly does "contaminates my directories" mean? How does it
>> actually impact what you do?
>
> I told you. It was just over your head. It is against the DVD
> specification to have anything other than VOB, BUP and INF files in the
> VIDEO_TS directory. And I manufacture DVDs and Blu-rays. I use PowerPC
> Macs as part of the pipeline to prep DVDs from VIDEO_TS to DDP for
> mastering. If anyone so much as opens a VIDEO_TS directory on the server
> from a Mac client, that Mac will contaminate the directory causing it to
> break the specification and thus be unfit for manufacturing. So I have
> to write a shell script which traverses those and removes such files. Sometimes
> more than once.

You use PowerPC macs for this????

LOL!

Quote this spec...

And didn't you know it's possible to turn off the writing of .DS_Store 
files on server directories?

<https://software.com/mac/tweaks/disable-ds-store-files-on-network-drives>

Sounds a lot like you're not the professional you're purporting yourself 
to be...

>
> // snip
>
>>> Yeah, and lots need the help of DAVE to do so. Cause Apple can't program
>>> an SMB stack to save their lives.
>>
>> Ummm...
>>
>> Bad news for you, sunshine: Apple's SMB stack was Samba at the time
>> you're talking about.
>
> Not bad news for me at all. See on Linux, we do this really cool thing
> you might have heard about... We update. Apple doesn't. Hell I can run
> Linux on that PowerPC and use a modern SMB stack. Once that keeps
> updating with the times. Even so, Apple's stack is still broken. Just
> because they /tried/ to implement Samba doesn't mean they did a good
> job. Obviously they didn't as it doesn't work correctly. Hence the need
> for DAVE. I know I know, the logic must be killing you.

Apple updated. And while at one point Dave might have been necessary, it 
hasn't been for some very long time.

>
> // snip
>
>>> Yeah, it is.
>>
>> No. It really isn't.
>
> LOL. When faced with something you don't like, you a pull a clown show
> and say it doesn't matter. Run and hind little boy... Reality isn't
> pretty for the Mac. Here, have more koolaid...

Says the guy who just snipped what he didn't like...

>
>>>> Seriously: that's your best example of how Bash 4 is better than Bash 3?
>>>
>>> Seriously, you're a dork. When given a solid answer to your question you
>>> just cover your eyes and refuse to accept it. I'm right on, just deal
>>> with it.
>>
>> You mean you can't think of any way to write a bash function that will
>> give you what you want...
>
> I have a way that works. And all modern bash versions use this syntax.
> I can't help it if Apple's claim of most advanced operating system uses
> tools from 7 years ago. Perhaps you forgot what "most advanced" actually
> means... I'll help you out. It doesn't mean 7 year old tools.

Sorry, but it's still an edge case.

>
> // snip
>
>>> As I said. You cannot re-program the play/pause key. It always assumes
>>> you want to use iTunes.
>>
>> Nope. It is possible. It's not even hard.
>>
>> It's just that it's also not necessary.
>>
>> Again: Apple not doing things the way you want them to is not the same
>> as "OSX is crap".
>
> So, do tell. How do I alter the media key for play/pause so that iTunes
> is not spawned and something else is. Something of my choosing.

And now you've moved the goalposts!

>
> // snip
>
>>> As I already said, FireWire devices are going out and we're left with
>>> USB. GUess you forgot what the topic is cause you're too busy avoiding
>>> it.
>>
>> How do you know FireWire devices are "going" out, and if you have a
>> device and they stop making others, how does it affect YOUR device?
>
> Means I am seeing less and less of them. Hell, go to MacSales AKA OWC
> and count how many FireWire BD drives you see and let me know what you
> find.

Failure to answer my question.

>
> // snip
>
>
>>> It does and it is. I had to buy DAVE to get a proper SMB stack.
>>
>> So Samba was "crap"
>
> No, Samba is fine. Apple are idiots and can't implement it properly.
> Hence having to buy DAVE.

Hence AT ONE TIME LONG AGO having to buy Dave.

>
>>> The
>>> built in rsync destroys the resource fork, HFS plus sucks ass.
>>
>> So install one that doesn't, you claim you're so clever with the terminal...
>
> yeah, so list all the steps involved to do so. And I guess you'll tell
> all users they need to do this cause the OS Apple ships sucks so much
> they can't do it for you. They can't support THEIR OWN FILE SYSTEM. How
> stupid is that...

Sorry, but the fact that one command line tool doesn't support resource 
forks is hardly a showstopper.

>
>>> BASH is
>>> out dated.
>>
>> In one trivial way.
>
> No, one example was given. You can look at the difference between
> versions yourself.

But you can't seem to produce another one...

>
>>> There are no PCI slots in any Mac sold today by Apple.
>>
>> But you can add them if you need them. And the operating system is no
>> better or worse from it in any case.
>
> Yeah, that's the ticket, buy an expensive computer that doesn't even
> have drive bays or PCI slots. Here's another idea, I can buy a Dell PC
> that has both. Maybe that's why Apple sells so few Macs into the
> enterprise. How's that 4k external monitor for the garbage can working
> out? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Th emost advanced monitor you
> have comes with the iMac. You can't even buy an Apple monitor that
> matches the iMac screen for the very expensive garbage can cause Apple
> dropped the ball yet again. In fact the Display Apple does sell, is
> super thick. Thicker than the whole iMac and has far less resolution to
> boot. So even their flagship garbage can can't match the display of
> their consumer iMac. In fact, their iPad has better resolution than the
> display for the pro garbage can and monitor. BWHAHAHAHAHA

You say the most ridiculous things.

So "OSX is crap" because you can't buy an APPLE branded 4K monitor?

>
>>> There
>>> are no options for built in optical blu-ray drives by the manufacturer.
>>
>> Which again, doesn't say anything about OS X.
>
> If you say so.

I say so...

...because it IS so.

>
>>> They basically suck. Your choices are limited. In the Linux and even
>>> Windows worlds, we have a ton of choices.
>>
>> Which doesn't say anything about the quality of the OS.
>
> Quality? BWAHAHHAHAHA

Yup.

You have literally come up with one...

ONE!

...actual quality issue: SMB on early versions of Mac OS X.

Don't blame me that you're too poor to buy up-to-date machines to run 
up-to-date software.

:-)

>
> // snip
>
>> No. You gave reasons why OS X doesn't do a few very oddball things you
>> claim you need it to do, and some of them weren't even about the OS.
>
> Translation... You totally got pwned and don't want to deal with it.

LOL!

>
>>>> So you gave replies that you now claim don't say it was crap and that
>>>> actually aren't OS X problems at all.
>>>
>>> No, that's a stretch. They are problems. Just deal with reality Alan.
>>> OSX is fine for mom and dad, but real computer users need a bit more
>>> than Apple offers.
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>> The old "real computer users" canard...
>
> Yeah, people that actually use the tools.

Riiiight.

Like decades old PowerPC machines...

:-)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351293

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-22 14:08 -0700
Message-ID<QbadnWD148d4D4fKnZ2dnUU7-KfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#351283
On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> On 2016-04-22 10:26 AM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>> On 2016-04-22 5:24 AM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>
>> // snip
>>
>>>> Jez, you can't make this stuff up. Time Machine is personal. rsync puts
>>>> the files on the server or other location where EVERYONE can see it.
>>>> It's just a backup, it's called SHARING. Time Machine is just a backup
>>>> tool.
>>>>
>>>> You just can't accept when someone else makes a solid point. In your
>>>> eyes, everyone else is wrong and Apple is always right. You're the worst
>>>> kind of Apple zealot. Get a grip. Apple isn't the end all be all of
>>>> computing. Hell Apple uses Azure, Amazon AWS and Google. They don't eat
>>>> their own dog food. They love selling it to you though.
>>>
>>> 1. you're making an extremely edge case here.
>>
>> Nope. You just want to marginalize my example.
>
> What percentage of Mac users do you suppose have even HEARD of rsync?

I have no idea, but I'd say everyone they appealed to by saying Macs are
UNIX would know what rsync is. Rsync is a staple on UNIX / Linux
systems. Seriously, EVERY UNIX / Linux admin uses it. Seriously, like
100% of them. It's as common and ls. 

>>> 2. You don't have to use fonts with resource fork data. Nothing made in
>>> the last decade would have them.
>>
>> Wrong again. I don't get to pick what clients bring to me. If they have
>> files and fonts such as from Quark 4.x days then they do. And I have to
>> work on those, I'd like to store the changes on my server, both their
>> original and my changes. And if those files make use of something other
>> than older fonts which use the resource fork, then they do.
>>
>> Now, I brought a specific example of where Apple's own tools do not work
>> with their own resource fork. You're apologizing for them.
>>
>
> rsync isn't an Apple tool. It's a leftover.

Now you're just making things up. It's part of being a BSD based UNIX
which Apple to this day pays to be certified on. Every year without fail
Apple is re certified as a UNIX OS. 

>>> 3. there are version of rsync that support resource forks.
>>
>> So, please install one and list all the steps you had to take to do so.
>
><https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=rsync%20resource%20forks>
>
> Fill your boots.
>
>> And even so, it doesn't change the fact that Apple's own OSX, which
>> gives me rsync still strips the resource fork from their own HFS file
>> system. You just don't seem to want to acknowledge this FACT. It's their
>
> Nope. I completely acknowledge it.
>
> It just isn't relevant for the vast majority of Mac users and for those 
> who actually have heard of it, most are bright enough to figure out what 
> works instead if they need resource fork support.
>
>> OS. Why do I have to be bothered with replacing their own commands? Yet
>> another problem. So you're basically saying I should replace Apple's
>> command every single time I upgrade or buy a new Mac cause the command
>> Apple provides is sub-par. I agree. It is sub-par. Hence why I brought
>> it up in the first place.
>
> Again: Apple not providing you a tool you think you need isn't the same 
> as "OSX is crap"

They are providing the tool. That's the point. I'm not installing it.
I'm using what THEY provided. 

>> // snip
>>
>>>> Yeah, I do.
>>>
>>> Riiiiiiiight.
>>
>> Ah, can't deal with it huh?
>>
>> // snip
>
> Looks like you can't prove you do it.
>
>>
>>>> LOL. You got nothing Alan. You can't come back with anything at all so
>>>> you resort to this. I answered your question and you can't deal with it.
>>>> It does what I said it does and it contaminates my directories for
>>>> optical manufacturing.
>>>
>>> What exactly does "contaminates my directories" mean? How does it
>>> actually impact what you do?
>>
>> I told you. It was just over your head. It is against the DVD
>> specification to have anything other than VOB, BUP and INF files in the
>> VIDEO_TS directory. And I manufacture DVDs and Blu-rays. I use PowerPC
>> Macs as part of the pipeline to prep DVDs from VIDEO_TS to DDP for
>> mastering. If anyone so much as opens a VIDEO_TS directory on the server
>> from a Mac client, that Mac will contaminate the directory causing it to
>> break the specification and thus be unfit for manufacturing. So I have
>> to write a shell script which traverses those and removes such files. Sometimes
>> more than once.
>
> You use PowerPC macs for this????
>
> LOL!
>
> Quote this spec...
>
> And didn't you know it's possible to turn off the writing of .DS_Store 
> files on server directories?
>
><https://software.com/mac/tweaks/disable-ds-store-files-on-network-drives>
>
> Sounds a lot like you're not the professional you're purporting yourself 
> to be...

Nope, didn't know that. And obviously neither did you else you'd have
mentioned it much earlier on. Even so, I'm not the source of the
masters, my clients are. So it kinda does matter for me but I still have
to deal with what others provide. I still have to check and delete
drives clients give me. I have no control over what they do. I'm not
sure how this might affect other folders though. And I am guessing you
don't know either. 

>> // snip
>>
>>>> Yeah, and lots need the help of DAVE to do so. Cause Apple can't program
>>>> an SMB stack to save their lives.
>>>
>>> Ummm...
>>>
>>> Bad news for you, sunshine: Apple's SMB stack was Samba at the time
>>> you're talking about.
>>
>> Not bad news for me at all. See on Linux, we do this really cool thing
>> you might have heard about... We update. Apple doesn't. Hell I can run
>> Linux on that PowerPC and use a modern SMB stack. Once that keeps
>> updating with the times. Even so, Apple's stack is still broken. Just
>> because they /tried/ to implement Samba doesn't mean they did a good
>> job. Obviously they didn't as it doesn't work correctly. Hence the need
>> for DAVE. I know I know, the logic must be killing you.
>
> Apple updated. And while at one point Dave might have been necessary, it 
> hasn't been for some very long time.

Apple update isn't going to do a damn thing to OSX 10.5.8. It's
essentially left for dead...

>> // snip
>>
>>>> Yeah, it is.
>>>
>>> No. It really isn't.
>>
>> LOL. When faced with something you don't like, you a pull a clown show
>> and say it doesn't matter. Run and hind little boy... Reality isn't
>> pretty for the Mac. Here, have more koolaid...
>
> Says the guy who just snipped what he didn't like...

Says the guy who snipped to make this manageable. What, you can't read
one up in the chain to see what we're talking about? Jez, SLRN can. Get
a real news reader. 

>>>>> Seriously: that's your best example of how Bash 4 is better than Bash 3?
>>>>
>>>> Seriously, you're a dork. When given a solid answer to your question you
>>>> just cover your eyes and refuse to accept it. I'm right on, just deal
>>>> with it.
>>>
>>> You mean you can't think of any way to write a bash function that will
>>> give you what you want...
>>
>> I have a way that works. And all modern bash versions use this syntax.
>> I can't help it if Apple's claim of most advanced operating system uses
>> tools from 7 years ago. Perhaps you forgot what "most advanced" actually
>> means... I'll help you out. It doesn't mean 7 year old tools.
>
> Sorry, but it's still an edge case.

Sorry, but it doesn't matter. It still serves as an example to your
question which you obviously thought would go unanswered. Sorry, Macs
are not perfect. Love breaking it to you. 

>> // snip
>>
>>>> As I said. You cannot re-program the play/pause key. It always assumes
>>>> you want to use iTunes.
>>>
>>> Nope. It is possible. It's not even hard.
>>>
>>> It's just that it's also not necessary.
>>>
>>> Again: Apple not doing things the way you want them to is not the same
>>> as "OSX is crap".
>>
>> So, do tell. How do I alter the media key for play/pause so that iTunes
>> is not spawned and something else is. Something of my choosing.
>
> And now you've moved the goalposts!

Nope, same goal post. I move the goal post later when I added how LAME
ASS the Mac monitor is compared to even an iPad. That is a goal post
move. This is the very same item I mentioned from the start. 

>> // snip
>>
>>>> As I already said, FireWire devices are going out and we're left with
>>>> USB. GUess you forgot what the topic is cause you're too busy avoiding
>>>> it.
>>>
>>> How do you know FireWire devices are "going" out, and if you have a
>>> device and they stop making others, how does it affect YOUR device?
>>
>> Means I am seeing less and less of them. Hell, go to MacSales AKA OWC
>> and count how many FireWire BD drives you see and let me know what you
>> find.
>
> Failure to answer my question.

The answers which you ignore... LOL. Get real.

>> // snip
>>
>>
>>>> It does and it is. I had to buy DAVE to get a proper SMB stack.
>>>
>>> So Samba was "crap"
>>
>> No, Samba is fine. Apple are idiots and can't implement it properly.
>> Hence having to buy DAVE.
>
> Hence AT ONE TIME LONG AGO having to buy Dave.

No, DAVE is needed right now, because OSX 10.5.8 sucks ass. 

>>>> The
>>>> built in rsync destroys the resource fork, HFS plus sucks ass.
>>>
>>> So install one that doesn't, you claim you're so clever with the terminal...
>>
>> yeah, so list all the steps involved to do so. And I guess you'll tell
>> all users they need to do this cause the OS Apple ships sucks so much
>> they can't do it for you. They can't support THEIR OWN FILE SYSTEM. How
>> stupid is that...
>
> Sorry, but the fact that one command line tool doesn't support resource 
> forks is hardly a showstopper.

Says you. I disagree. 

>>>> BASH is
>>>> out dated.
>>>
>>> In one trivial way.
>>
>> No, one example was given. You can look at the difference between
>> versions yourself.
>
> But you can't seem to produce another one...

That's a retard response. It makes no difference. Apple still has a 7
year old shell in a released months ago OS. That's the fact. 

>>>> There are no PCI slots in any Mac sold today by Apple.
>>>
>>> But you can add them if you need them. And the operating system is no
>>> better or worse from it in any case.
>>
>> Yeah, that's the ticket, buy an expensive computer that doesn't even
>> have drive bays or PCI slots. Here's another idea, I can buy a Dell PC
>> that has both. Maybe that's why Apple sells so few Macs into the
>> enterprise. How's that 4k external monitor for the garbage can working
>> out? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Th emost advanced monitor you
>> have comes with the iMac. You can't even buy an Apple monitor that
>> matches the iMac screen for the very expensive garbage can cause Apple
>> dropped the ball yet again. In fact the Display Apple does sell, is
>> super thick. Thicker than the whole iMac and has far less resolution to
>> boot. So even their flagship garbage can can't match the display of
>> their consumer iMac. In fact, their iPad has better resolution than the
>> display for the pro garbage can and monitor. BWHAHAHAHAHA
>
> You say the most ridiculous things.
>
> So "OSX is crap" because you can't buy an APPLE branded 4K monitor?

Correct. You catch on finally. Apple is Crap, OSX is Crap, Your MAC is
absolutely dog shit because all of it is upgraded and dropped at the
whims of Apple and without any regard to their clients. Look no further
than Final Cut Pro and how many used it to make their living only to
realize Apple doesn't give a rats ass and didn't care if you left the
platform as a result. They do what they want, screw you customer. Anyone
in business will not appreciate that attitude. Only dickless consumers
are so careless. 

>>>> There
>>>> are no options for built in optical blu-ray drives by the manufacturer.
>>>
>>> Which again, doesn't say anything about OS X.
>>
>> If you say so.
>
> I say so...
>
> ...because it IS so.

Because you're a careless consumer who drank the koolaid. 

>>>> They basically suck. Your choices are limited. In the Linux and even
>>>> Windows worlds, we have a ton of choices.
>>>
>>> Which doesn't say anything about the quality of the OS.
>>
>> Quality? BWAHAHHAHAHA
>
> Yup.
>
> You have literally come up with one...
>
> ONE!
>
> ...actual quality issue: SMB on early versions of Mac OS X.
>
> Don't blame me that you're too poor to buy up-to-date machines to run 
> up-to-date software.
>
>:-)

Ah, wondered how long it would take for that comment. You're an idiot.
You'll always be an idiot. 

>> // snip
>>
>>> No. You gave reasons why OS X doesn't do a few very oddball things you
>>> claim you need it to do, and some of them weren't even about the OS.
>>
>> Translation... You totally got pwned and don't want to deal with it.
>
> LOL!
>
>>
>>>>> So you gave replies that you now claim don't say it was crap and that
>>>>> actually aren't OS X problems at all.
>>>>
>>>> No, that's a stretch. They are problems. Just deal with reality Alan.
>>>> OSX is fine for mom and dad, but real computer users need a bit more
>>>> than Apple offers.
>>>
>>> LOL!
>>>
>>> The old "real computer users" canard...
>>
>> Yeah, people that actually use the tools.
>
> Riiiight.
>
> Like decades old PowerPC machines...

Yeah, cause real business still uses them. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351297

FromAlan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
Date2016-04-22 14:24 -0700
Message-ID<nfe4pj$84g$1@news.datemas.de>
In reply to#351293
On 2016-04-22 2:08 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> On 2016-04-22 10:26 AM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>>> On 2016-04-22 5:24 AM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>
>>> // snip
>>>
>>>>> Jez, you can't make this stuff up. Time Machine is personal. rsync puts
>>>>> the files on the server or other location where EVERYONE can see it.
>>>>> It's just a backup, it's called SHARING. Time Machine is just a backup
>>>>> tool.
>>>>>
>>>>> You just can't accept when someone else makes a solid point. In your
>>>>> eyes, everyone else is wrong and Apple is always right. You're the worst
>>>>> kind of Apple zealot. Get a grip. Apple isn't the end all be all of
>>>>> computing. Hell Apple uses Azure, Amazon AWS and Google. They don't eat
>>>>> their own dog food. They love selling it to you though.
>>>>
>>>> 1. you're making an extremely edge case here.
>>>
>>> Nope. You just want to marginalize my example.
>>
>> What percentage of Mac users do you suppose have even HEARD of rsync?
>
> I have no idea, but I'd say everyone they appealed to by saying Macs are
> UNIX would know what rsync is. Rsync is a staple on UNIX / Linux
> systems. Seriously, EVERY UNIX / Linux admin uses it. Seriously, like
> 100% of them. It's as common and ls.

And the fact that Mac OS X isn't really intended to be used as a 
Unix/Linux replacement makes it "crap"?

>
>>>> 2. You don't have to use fonts with resource fork data. Nothing made in
>>>> the last decade would have them.
>>>
>>> Wrong again. I don't get to pick what clients bring to me. If they have
>>> files and fonts such as from Quark 4.x days then they do. And I have to
>>> work on those, I'd like to store the changes on my server, both their
>>> original and my changes. And if those files make use of something other
>>> than older fonts which use the resource fork, then they do.
>>>
>>> Now, I brought a specific example of where Apple's own tools do not work
>>> with their own resource fork. You're apologizing for them.
>>>
>>
>> rsync isn't an Apple tool. It's a leftover.
>
> Now you're just making things up. It's part of being a BSD based UNIX
> which Apple to this day pays to be certified on. Every year without fail
> Apple is re certified as a UNIX OS.

Yup. Which would mean that rsync isn't a core part of what you must have 
to be a certified Unix.

>
>>>> 3. there are version of rsync that support resource forks.
>>>
>>> So, please install one and list all the steps you had to take to do so.
>>
>> <https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=rsync%20resource%20forks>
>>
>> Fill your boots.
>>
>>> And even so, it doesn't change the fact that Apple's own OSX, which
>>> gives me rsync still strips the resource fork from their own HFS file
>>> system. You just don't seem to want to acknowledge this FACT. It's their
>>
>> Nope. I completely acknowledge it.
>>
>> It just isn't relevant for the vast majority of Mac users and for those
>> who actually have heard of it, most are bright enough to figure out what
>> works instead if they need resource fork support.
>>
>>> OS. Why do I have to be bothered with replacing their own commands? Yet
>>> another problem. So you're basically saying I should replace Apple's
>>> command every single time I upgrade or buy a new Mac cause the command
>>> Apple provides is sub-par. I agree. It is sub-par. Hence why I brought
>>> it up in the first place.
>>
>> Again: Apple not providing you a tool you think you need isn't the same
>> as "OSX is crap"
>
> They are providing the tool. That's the point. I'm not installing it.
> I'm using what THEY provided.

You're so hilariously hypocritical about this stuff...

>
>>> // snip
>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I do.
>>>>
>>>> Riiiiiiiight.
>>>
>>> Ah, can't deal with it huh?
>>>
>>> // snip
>>
>> Looks like you can't prove you do it.
>>
>>>
>>>>> LOL. You got nothing Alan. You can't come back with anything at all so
>>>>> you resort to this. I answered your question and you can't deal with it.
>>>>> It does what I said it does and it contaminates my directories for
>>>>> optical manufacturing.
>>>>
>>>> What exactly does "contaminates my directories" mean? How does it
>>>> actually impact what you do?
>>>
>>> I told you. It was just over your head. It is against the DVD
>>> specification to have anything other than VOB, BUP and INF files in the
>>> VIDEO_TS directory. And I manufacture DVDs and Blu-rays. I use PowerPC
>>> Macs as part of the pipeline to prep DVDs from VIDEO_TS to DDP for
>>> mastering. If anyone so much as opens a VIDEO_TS directory on the server
>>> from a Mac client, that Mac will contaminate the directory causing it to
>>> break the specification and thus be unfit for manufacturing. So I have
>>> to write a shell script which traverses those and removes such files. Sometimes
>>> more than once.
>>
>> You use PowerPC macs for this????
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>> Quote this spec...
>>
>> And didn't you know it's possible to turn off the writing of .DS_Store
>> files on server directories?
>>
>> <https://software.com/mac/tweaks/disable-ds-store-files-on-network-drives>
>>
>> Sounds a lot like you're not the professional you're purporting yourself
>> to be...
>
> Nope, didn't know that. And obviously neither did you else you'd have
> mentioned it much earlier on. Even so, I'm not the source of the
> masters, my clients are. So it kinda does matter for me but I still have
> to deal with what others provide. I still have to check and delete
> drives clients give me. I have no control over what they do. I'm not
> sure how this might affect other folders though. And I am guessing you
> don't know either.

I did know it.

At first, I didn't realize it was on your network drives you had the 
problem.

>
>>> // snip
>>>
>>>>> Yeah, and lots need the help of DAVE to do so. Cause Apple can't program
>>>>> an SMB stack to save their lives.
>>>>
>>>> Ummm...
>>>>
>>>> Bad news for you, sunshine: Apple's SMB stack was Samba at the time
>>>> you're talking about.
>>>
>>> Not bad news for me at all. See on Linux, we do this really cool thing
>>> you might have heard about... We update. Apple doesn't. Hell I can run
>>> Linux on that PowerPC and use a modern SMB stack. Once that keeps
>>> updating with the times. Even so, Apple's stack is still broken. Just
>>> because they /tried/ to implement Samba doesn't mean they did a good
>>> job. Obviously they didn't as it doesn't work correctly. Hence the need
>>> for DAVE. I know I know, the logic must be killing you.
>>
>> Apple updated. And while at one point Dave might have been necessary, it
>> hasn't been for some very long time.
>
> Apple update isn't going to do a damn thing to OSX 10.5.8. It's
> essentially left for dead...

Yup. And so are lots of other old OSes.

So?

>
>>> // snip
>>>
>>>>> Yeah, it is.
>>>>
>>>> No. It really isn't.
>>>
>>> LOL. When faced with something you don't like, you a pull a clown show
>>> and say it doesn't matter. Run and hind little boy... Reality isn't
>>> pretty for the Mac. Here, have more koolaid...
>>
>> Says the guy who just snipped what he didn't like...
>
> Says the guy who snipped to make this manageable. What, you can't read
> one up in the chain to see what we're talking about? Jez, SLRN can. Get
> a real news reader.

Riiiiiiiiight.

>
>>>>>> Seriously: that's your best example of how Bash 4 is better than Bash 3?
>>>>>
>>>>> Seriously, you're a dork. When given a solid answer to your question you
>>>>> just cover your eyes and refuse to accept it. I'm right on, just deal
>>>>> with it.
>>>>
>>>> You mean you can't think of any way to write a bash function that will
>>>> give you what you want...
>>>
>>> I have a way that works. And all modern bash versions use this syntax.
>>> I can't help it if Apple's claim of most advanced operating system uses
>>> tools from 7 years ago. Perhaps you forgot what "most advanced" actually
>>> means... I'll help you out. It doesn't mean 7 year old tools.
>>
>> Sorry, but it's still an edge case.
>
> Sorry, but it doesn't matter. It still serves as an example to your
> question which you obviously thought would go unanswered. Sorry, Macs
> are not perfect. Love breaking it to you.

Nope. Not supporting a particular version of bash doesn't make "OSX crap".

>
>>> // snip
>>>
>>>>> As I said. You cannot re-program the play/pause key. It always assumes
>>>>> you want to use iTunes.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. It is possible. It's not even hard.
>>>>
>>>> It's just that it's also not necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Again: Apple not doing things the way you want them to is not the same
>>>> as "OSX is crap".
>>>
>>> So, do tell. How do I alter the media key for play/pause so that iTunes
>>> is not spawned and something else is. Something of my choosing.
>>
>> And now you've moved the goalposts!
>
> Nope, same goal post. I move the goal post later when I added how LAME
> ASS the Mac monitor is compared to even an iPad. That is a goal post
> move. This is the very same item I mentioned from the start.

You moved the goalpost from "doesn't launch iTunes so that I can use it 
in another app" to "must launch said other app".

>
>>> // snip
>>>
>>>>> As I already said, FireWire devices are going out and we're left with
>>>>> USB. GUess you forgot what the topic is cause you're too busy avoiding
>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> How do you know FireWire devices are "going" out, and if you have a
>>>> device and they stop making others, how does it affect YOUR device?
>>>
>>> Means I am seeing less and less of them. Hell, go to MacSales AKA OWC
>>> and count how many FireWire BD drives you see and let me know what you
>>> find.
>>
>> Failure to answer my question.
>
> The answers which you ignore... LOL. Get real.

You failed to answer my question.

>
>>> // snip
>>>
>>>
>>>>> It does and it is. I had to buy DAVE to get a proper SMB stack.
>>>>
>>>> So Samba was "crap"
>>>
>>> No, Samba is fine. Apple are idiots and can't implement it properly.
>>> Hence having to buy DAVE.
>>
>> Hence AT ONE TIME LONG AGO having to buy Dave.
>
> No, DAVE is needed right now, because OSX 10.5.8 sucks ass.

10.5 hasn't been current for more than 6 years.



>
>>>>> The
>>>>> built in rsync destroys the resource fork, HFS plus sucks ass.
>>>>
>>>> So install one that doesn't, you claim you're so clever with the terminal...
>>>
>>> yeah, so list all the steps involved to do so. And I guess you'll tell
>>> all users they need to do this cause the OS Apple ships sucks so much
>>> they can't do it for you. They can't support THEIR OWN FILE SYSTEM. How
>>> stupid is that...
>>
>> Sorry, but the fact that one command line tool doesn't support resource
>> forks is hardly a showstopper.
>
> Says you. I disagree.

Sorry, but as I've shown, it turns out it DOES support resource forks...

...and you just didn't even bother to check.

:-)

>
>>>>> BASH is
>>>>> out dated.
>>>>
>>>> In one trivial way.
>>>
>>> No, one example was given. You can look at the difference between
>>> versions yourself.
>>
>> But you can't seem to produce another one...
>
> That's a retard response. It makes no difference. Apple still has a 7
> year old shell in a released months ago OS. That's the fact.

Sorry, but that doesn't make it "crap".

>
>>>>> There are no PCI slots in any Mac sold today by Apple.
>>>>
>>>> But you can add them if you need them. And the operating system is no
>>>> better or worse from it in any case.
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's the ticket, buy an expensive computer that doesn't even
>>> have drive bays or PCI slots. Here's another idea, I can buy a Dell PC
>>> that has both. Maybe that's why Apple sells so few Macs into the
>>> enterprise. How's that 4k external monitor for the garbage can working
>>> out? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Th emost advanced monitor you
>>> have comes with the iMac. You can't even buy an Apple monitor that
>>> matches the iMac screen for the very expensive garbage can cause Apple
>>> dropped the ball yet again. In fact the Display Apple does sell, is
>>> super thick. Thicker than the whole iMac and has far less resolution to
>>> boot. So even their flagship garbage can can't match the display of
>>> their consumer iMac. In fact, their iPad has better resolution than the
>>> display for the pro garbage can and monitor. BWHAHAHAHAHA
>>
>> You say the most ridiculous things.
>>
>> So "OSX is crap" because you can't buy an APPLE branded 4K monitor?
>
> Correct. You catch on finally. Apple is Crap, OSX is Crap, Your MAC is
> absolutely dog shit because all of it is upgraded and dropped at the
> whims of Apple and without any regard to their clients. Look no further
> than Final Cut Pro and how many used it to make their living only to
> realize Apple doesn't give a rats ass and didn't care if you left the
> platform as a result. They do what they want, screw you customer. Anyone
> in business will not appreciate that attitude. Only dickless consumers
> are so careless.

I do catch on:

This isn't rational with you: this is religious.

:-)

>
>>>>> There
>>>>> are no options for built in optical blu-ray drives by the manufacturer.
>>>>
>>>> Which again, doesn't say anything about OS X.
>>>
>>> If you say so.
>>
>> I say so...
>>
>> ...because it IS so.
>
> Because you're a careless consumer who drank the koolaid.

Nope. Because what Apple chooses to provide in hardware doesn't change 
the quality of OS X in either direction.

>
>>>>> They basically suck. Your choices are limited. In the Linux and even
>>>>> Windows worlds, we have a ton of choices.
>>>>
>>>> Which doesn't say anything about the quality of the OS.
>>>
>>> Quality? BWAHAHHAHAHA
>>
>> Yup.
>>
>> You have literally come up with one...
>>
>> ONE!
>>
>> ...actual quality issue: SMB on early versions of Mac OS X.
>>
>> Don't blame me that you're too poor to buy up-to-date machines to run
>> up-to-date software.
>>
>> :-)
>
> Ah, wondered how long it would take for that comment. You're an idiot.
> You'll always be an idiot.

Sorry, but you're making grandiose claims about networks and burning 
optical disks...

...and you're still using PowerPC machines?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

>
>>> // snip
>>>
>>>> No. You gave reasons why OS X doesn't do a few very oddball things you
>>>> claim you need it to do, and some of them weren't even about the OS.
>>>
>>> Translation... You totally got pwned and don't want to deal with it.
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>>>
>>>>>> So you gave replies that you now claim don't say it was crap and that
>>>>>> actually aren't OS X problems at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, that's a stretch. They are problems. Just deal with reality Alan.
>>>>> OSX is fine for mom and dad, but real computer users need a bit more
>>>>> than Apple offers.
>>>>
>>>> LOL!
>>>>
>>>> The old "real computer users" canard...
>>>
>>> Yeah, people that actually use the tools.
>>
>> Riiiight.
>>
>> Like decades old PowerPC machines...
>
> Yeah, cause real business still uses them.

LOL!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351307

FromAlan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
Date2016-04-22 14:54 -0700
Message-ID<nfe6j3$f9a$1@news.datemas.de>
In reply to#351293
On 2016-04-22 2:08 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> You say the most ridiculous things.
>> >
>> So "OSX is crap" because you can't buy an APPLE branded 4K monitor?

> Correct. You catch on finally. Apple is Crap, OSX is Crap, Your MAC is
> absolutely dog shit because all of it is upgraded and dropped at the
> whims of Apple and without any regard to their clients. Look no further
> than Final Cut Pro and how many used it to make their living only to
> realize Apple doesn't give a rats ass and didn't care if you left the
> platform as a result. They do what they want, screw you customer. Anyone
> in business will not appreciate that attitude. Only dickless consumers
> are so careless.
>

So let's just put it out there completely starkly:

You're claiming that the fact that Apple doesn't make a 4K monitor...

...despite there being hundreds of them available from other companies 
that will work fine with a Mac...

...that proves that Apple's OPERATING SYSTEM is "crap".

And you claim that I'm the deluded one!

LOL


And if Apple "screws" their customers so badly...

...how is it that Mac sales have never been better?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351316

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-22 15:10 -0700
Message-ID<kaqdnSNolfPfPIfKnZ2dnUU7-R3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#351307
On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> So let's just put it out there completely starkly:
> You're claiming that the fact that Apple doesn't make a 4K monitor...
>
> ...despite there being hundreds of them available from other companies 
> that will work fine with a Mac...

It proves Apple doesn't care about the pro customer. Seriously, look at
the $1,000 monitor Apple sells. When was it last updated? The iMac which
has a whole computer in it is thinner, by far, then that monitor. The
iMac has 5k resolution available, but not that monitor. What does that
tell you. Seriously, you spend $3m or $4m on a trash can flagship
computer and the display option from Apple is a 72 dpi monitor that
hasn't seen a single update in what, 5 or so years? 

So you're going to use this powerhouse for what? You can see more dots
on an iMac than you can on Apple's Pro product line. That's really the
issue in a nutshell. They don't care about their pro customers. They
turned FCP into FCX, which is iMovie Pro essentially.

Now, I was part of the FCP community out of LA. And at the LAFCPUG every
year we'd vote on new features and the top 10 always made it into FCP.
Apple listened cause they were all about the pro customer. Then they
went consumer and completely dropped FCP for FCX. The iMac has seen
steady improvement. But the flagship tower lost PCI slots and any bay
for hard drives, optical or other wise. The towers that come before it
have no thunderbolt ports. The new garbage can does, but the display is
still the display that went with the old towers and laptops. It has yet
to be updated. And it has been about a half decade or more. 

It doesn't matter that Dell has a suitable display. Apple is selling
themselves as a one stop shop for all things Apple. So where is their
hiDPI display for the trash can? Why do I have to turn to Dell or LG to
get a display for the trash can? 

> ...that proves that Apple's OPERATING SYSTEM is "crap".

Yeah, it does. Because it shows that Apple doesn't care about the pro
customer. They keep pushing OSX towards consumers and not caring about
the pro side. Like calling it UNIX and giving it HFS instead of UFS or
ZFS. A professional shouldn't rely on HFS. 

And to call it UNIX and not even update the command line tools is nuts.
What do you think happens when they tell me it is UNIX and then I try to
use simple command line tools every UNIX has and I find they are tools
from 7 or more years ago. How is that the most advanced operating
system? They are not advancing it. What happened to Aperture? 

More and more Apple is running to the consumer, not the professional.
And yeah, in my opinion that makes them crap. The whole product is crap.
OSX, the Mac, and yes Apple itself for constantly selling us something
only to run away from it with their tail between their legs. 

Where is the XServe? Where is the XSAN? OSX Server sucks. Does Apple eat
their own Dog food? No. They rely on everyone else. Google, Amazon AWS
and Azure. They spend more than a billion a year subscribing to the
services of the big three. Why is that?

Say what ever you want about Linux but understand one thing. We EAT our
own dog food. We use it on the desktop, in the server, on the cloud, in
the stock exchange and on the phone. Most data centers are LINUX. We
don't bullshit you. 

> And you claim that I'm the deluded one!
>
> LOL
>
>
> And if Apple "screws" their customers so badly...
>
> ...how is it that Mac sales have never been better?


-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351320

FromAlan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
Date2016-04-22 15:16 -0700
Message-ID<nfe7si$kl4$1@news.datemas.de>
In reply to#351316
On 2016-04-22 3:10 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> So let's just put it out there completely starkly:
>> You're claiming that the fact that Apple doesn't make a 4K monitor...
>>
>> ...despite there being hundreds of them available from other companies
>> that will work fine with a Mac...
>
> It proves Apple doesn't care about the pro customer. Seriously, look at
> the $1,000 monitor Apple sells. When was it last updated? The iMac which
> has a whole computer in it is thinner, by far, then that monitor. The
> iMac has 5k resolution available, but not that monitor. What does that
> tell you. Seriously, you spend $3m or $4m on a trash can flagship
> computer and the display option from Apple is a 72 dpi monitor that
> hasn't seen a single update in what, 5 or so years?

So in order for Apple to care it has to provide hardware for everything 
that every pro user might require?

Why do you have to have a display option from Apple to make the Mac Pro 
into a quality product, let alone Mac OS X?

>
> So you're going to use this powerhouse for what? You can see more dots
> on an iMac than you can on Apple's Pro product line. That's really the
> issue in a nutshell. They don't care about their pro customers. They
> turned FCP into FCX, which is iMovie Pro essentially.

You can see as many dots as you want with the many, many 4K monitors you 
can buy for use with the Mac Pro.

>
> Now, I was part of the FCP community out of LA. And at the LAFCPUG every
> year we'd vote on new features and the top 10 always made it into FCP.
> Apple listened cause they were all about the pro customer. Then they
> went consumer and completely dropped FCP for FCX. The iMac has seen
> steady improvement. But the flagship tower lost PCI slots and any bay
> for hard drives, optical or other wise. The towers that come before it
> have no thunderbolt ports. The new garbage can does, but the display is
> still the display that went with the old towers and laptops. It has yet
> to be updated. And it has been about a half decade or more.

And then they started adding those features back into FCPX.

Why this hang up on the display not being from Apple?

>
> It doesn't matter that Dell has a suitable display. Apple is selling
> themselves as a one stop shop for all things Apple. So where is their
> hiDPI display for the trash can? Why do I have to turn to Dell or LG to
> get a display for the trash can?
>
>> ...that proves that Apple's OPERATING SYSTEM is "crap".
>
> Yeah, it does. Because it shows that Apple doesn't care about the pro
> customer. They keep pushing OSX towards consumers and not caring about
> the pro side. Like calling it UNIX and giving it HFS instead of UFS or
> ZFS. A professional shouldn't rely on HFS.

No. It really doesn't. All you're doing is showing your views aren't 
rational.

>
> And to call it UNIX and not even update the command line tools is nuts.
> What do you think happens when they tell me it is UNIX and then I try to
> use simple command line tools every UNIX has and I find they are tools
> from 7 or more years ago. How is that the most advanced operating
> system? They are not advancing it. What happened to Aperture?

Who cares?

Apple is a COMPANY. They're entitled to organize their business in the 
way that they feel is best.

>
> More and more Apple is running to the consumer, not the professional.
> And yeah, in my opinion that makes them crap. The whole product is crap.
> OSX, the Mac, and yes Apple itself for constantly selling us something
> only to run away from it with their tail between their legs.

Sorry, but even if true, that doesn't make "OSX crap".

>
> Where is the XServe? Where is the XSAN? OSX Server sucks. Does Apple eat
> their own Dog food? No. They rely on everyone else. Google, Amazon AWS
> and Azure. They spend more than a billion a year subscribing to the
> services of the big three. Why is that?

In what specific way does "OSX [sig] Server suck[]"? Are you going to 
say that it's because you can't buy a rack-mount server to run it on?

LOL

>
> Say what ever you want about Linux but understand one thing. We EAT our
> own dog food. We use it on the desktop, in the server, on the cloud, in
> the stock exchange and on the phone. Most data centers are LINUX. We
> don't bullshit you.

But it's dog food you're eating.

>
>> And you claim that I'm the deluded one!
>>
>> LOL
>>
>>
>> And if Apple "screws" their customers so badly...
>>
>> ...how is it that Mac sales have never been better?

Yeah... ...no answer, huh?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351338

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-22 16:01 -0700
Message-ID<GPmdnTqZ1tjBMIfKnZ2dnUU7-anNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#351320
On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
> On 2016-04-22 3:10 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>> So let's just put it out there completely starkly:
>>> You're claiming that the fact that Apple doesn't make a 4K monitor...
>>>
>>> ...despite there being hundreds of them available from other companies
>>> that will work fine with a Mac...
>>
>> It proves Apple doesn't care about the pro customer. Seriously, look at
>> the $1,000 monitor Apple sells. When was it last updated? The iMac which
>> has a whole computer in it is thinner, by far, then that monitor. The
>> iMac has 5k resolution available, but not that monitor. What does that
>> tell you. Seriously, you spend $3m or $4m on a trash can flagship
>> computer and the display option from Apple is a 72 dpi monitor that
>> hasn't seen a single update in what, 5 or so years?
>
> So in order for Apple to care it has to provide hardware for everything 
> that every pro user might require?

If you are going to make a "pro" product, then yes. What is Pro about
the ipad Pro? A keyboard? Seriously, what makes it a pro product? 

How is the trash can a pro product when you can't even expand it with an
optical drive or add a PCI card to it? That's not pro. That's stroking
the ego of a consumer. It's slick marketing and nothing more. They are
selling you on the fact that you are a pro. But seriously, you're not.
You're just a user that enjoys using a pretty computer. 

> Why do you have to have a display option from Apple to make the Mac Pro 
> into a quality product, let alone Mac OS X?

Already explained. Why don't you. Answer me that...

>> So you're going to use this powerhouse for what? You can see more dots
>> on an iMac than you can on Apple's Pro product line. That's really the
>> issue in a nutshell. They don't care about their pro customers. They
>> turned FCP into FCX, which is iMovie Pro essentially.
>
> You can see as many dots as you want with the many, many 4K monitors you 
> can buy for use with the Mac Pro.

Yeah, just not from Apple. 

>> Now, I was part of the FCP community out of LA. And at the LAFCPUG every
>> year we'd vote on new features and the top 10 always made it into FCP.
>> Apple listened cause they were all about the pro customer. Then they
>> went consumer and completely dropped FCP for FCX. The iMac has seen
>> steady improvement. But the flagship tower lost PCI slots and any bay
>> for hard drives, optical or other wise. The towers that come before it
>> have no thunderbolt ports. The new garbage can does, but the display is
>> still the display that went with the old towers and laptops. It has yet
>> to be updated. And it has been about a half decade or more.
>
> And then they started adding those features back into FCPX.

yeah, right. That must be why no one uses it anymore. Even long time Mac
fans like Leo Laporte and his whole Mac happy fan boy club has dropped
Apple. They all use Premiere and PCs now. They finally learned a hard
lesson. 

> Why this hang up on the display not being from Apple?

Just making a point and using it as an example. That's what we do when
we present an argument. 

>> It doesn't matter that Dell has a suitable display. Apple is selling
>> themselves as a one stop shop for all things Apple. So where is their
>> hiDPI display for the trash can? Why do I have to turn to Dell or LG to
>> get a display for the trash can?
>>
>>> ...that proves that Apple's OPERATING SYSTEM is "crap".
>>
>> Yeah, it does. Because it shows that Apple doesn't care about the pro
>> customer. They keep pushing OSX towards consumers and not caring about
>> the pro side. Like calling it UNIX and giving it HFS instead of UFS or
>> ZFS. A professional shouldn't rely on HFS.
>
> No. It really doesn't. All you're doing is showing your views aren't 
> rational.

LOL. No, my views are completely rational. You'd wise to heed my view. 

>> And to call it UNIX and not even update the command line tools is nuts.
>> What do you think happens when they tell me it is UNIX and then I try to
>> use simple command line tools every UNIX has and I find they are tools
>> from 7 or more years ago. How is that the most advanced operating
>> system? They are not advancing it. What happened to Aperture?
>
> Who cares?

All those users that were sold on the bullshit that it is UNIX. 

> Apple is a COMPANY. They're entitled to organize their business in the 
> way that they feel is best.

They are indeed. On that we agree. Which is why I give them as little
business as possible. I'd rather fund Open Source than give Apple a
dime. 

>> More and more Apple is running to the consumer, not the professional.
>> And yeah, in my opinion that makes them crap. The whole product is crap.
>> OSX, the Mac, and yes Apple itself for constantly selling us something
>> only to run away from it with their tail between their legs.
>
> Sorry, but even if true, that doesn't make "OSX crap".

It sure does. 

>> Where is the XServe? Where is the XSAN? OSX Server sucks. Does Apple eat
>> their own Dog food? No. They rely on everyone else. Google, Amazon AWS
>> and Azure. They spend more than a billion a year subscribing to the
>> services of the big three. Why is that?
>
> In what specific way does "OSX [sig] Server suck[]"? Are you going to 
> say that it's because you can't buy a rack-mount server to run it on?

No, because it sucks. Go to the Apple Store right now, type in OSX
server, there are 15 ratings. 8 give it a 5. Six give it a 1. Now click
on average rating for all versions. 92 give it a 5. A whopping 122 give
it a 1. Even Apple's customers who bought it agree that it sucks. Many
more say it is a 1 than those that say it is a 5. 

Sounds to me like fans are propping it up but the real users call it
like it is. It's crapware.

// snip

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351342

FromAlan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
Date2016-04-22 16:18 -0700
Message-ID<nfebfp$1rv$3@news.datemas.de>
In reply to#351338
On 2016-04-22 4:01 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> On 2016-04-22 3:10 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>>> So let's just put it out there completely starkly:
>>>> You're claiming that the fact that Apple doesn't make a 4K monitor...
>>>>
>>>> ...despite there being hundreds of them available from other companies
>>>> that will work fine with a Mac...
>>>
>>> It proves Apple doesn't care about the pro customer. Seriously, look at
>>> the $1,000 monitor Apple sells. When was it last updated? The iMac which
>>> has a whole computer in it is thinner, by far, then that monitor. The
>>> iMac has 5k resolution available, but not that monitor. What does that
>>> tell you. Seriously, you spend $3m or $4m on a trash can flagship
>>> computer and the display option from Apple is a 72 dpi monitor that
>>> hasn't seen a single update in what, 5 or so years?
>>
>> So in order for Apple to care it has to provide hardware for everything
>> that every pro user might require?
>
> If you are going to make a "pro" product, then yes. What is Pro about
> the ipad Pro? A keyboard? Seriously, what makes it a pro product?

Dude: are you hearing yourself?

>
> How is the trash can a pro product when you can't even expand it with an
> optical drive or add a PCI card to it? That's not pro. That's stroking
> the ego of a consumer. It's slick marketing and nothing more. They are
> selling you on the fact that you are a pro. But seriously, you're not.
> You're just a user that enjoys using a pretty computer.

You can expand it in DIFFERENT ways that other products. That doesn't 
make any more or any less pro.

>
>> Why do you have to have a display option from Apple to make the Mac Pro
>> into a quality product, let alone Mac OS X?
>
> Already explained. Why don't you. Answer me that...

No. Already further ranted about.

>
>>> So you're going to use this powerhouse for what? You can see more dots
>>> on an iMac than you can on Apple's Pro product line. That's really the
>>> issue in a nutshell. They don't care about their pro customers. They
>>> turned FCP into FCX, which is iMovie Pro essentially.
>>
>> You can see as many dots as you want with the many, many 4K monitors you
>> can buy for use with the Mac Pro.
>
> Yeah, just not from Apple.

And that is important... ...why?

>
>>> Now, I was part of the FCP community out of LA. And at the LAFCPUG every
>>> year we'd vote on new features and the top 10 always made it into FCP.
>>> Apple listened cause they were all about the pro customer. Then they
>>> went consumer and completely dropped FCP for FCX. The iMac has seen
>>> steady improvement. But the flagship tower lost PCI slots and any bay
>>> for hard drives, optical or other wise. The towers that come before it
>>> have no thunderbolt ports. The new garbage can does, but the display is
>>> still the display that went with the old towers and laptops. It has yet
>>> to be updated. And it has been about a half decade or more.
>>
>> And then they started adding those features back into FCPX.
>
> yeah, right. That must be why no one uses it anymore. Even long time Mac
> fans like Leo Laporte and his whole Mac happy fan boy club has dropped
> Apple. They all use Premiere and PCs now. They finally learned a hard
> lesson.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

>
>> Why this hang up on the display not being from Apple?
>
> Just making a point and using it as an example. That's what we do when
> we present an argument.

But it doesn't make a point unless you can actually explain the relevance.

>
>>> It doesn't matter that Dell has a suitable display. Apple is selling
>>> themselves as a one stop shop for all things Apple. So where is their
>>> hiDPI display for the trash can? Why do I have to turn to Dell or LG to
>>> get a display for the trash can?
>>>
>>>> ...that proves that Apple's OPERATING SYSTEM is "crap".
>>>
>>> Yeah, it does. Because it shows that Apple doesn't care about the pro
>>> customer. They keep pushing OSX towards consumers and not caring about
>>> the pro side. Like calling it UNIX and giving it HFS instead of UFS or
>>> ZFS. A professional shouldn't rely on HFS.
>>
>> No. It really doesn't. All you're doing is showing your views aren't
>> rational.
>
> LOL. No, my views are completely rational. You'd wise to heed my view.

LOL!

>
>>> And to call it UNIX and not even update the command line tools is nuts.
>>> What do you think happens when they tell me it is UNIX and then I try to
>>> use simple command line tools every UNIX has and I find they are tools
>>> from 7 or more years ago. How is that the most advanced operating
>>> system? They are not advancing it. What happened to Aperture?
>>
>> Who cares?
>
> All those users that were sold on the bullshit that it is UNIX.

It most certainly is Unix. Sorry, but you don't make that call.

>
>> Apple is a COMPANY. They're entitled to organize their business in the
>> way that they feel is best.
>
> They are indeed. On that we agree. Which is why I give them as little
> business as possible. I'd rather fund Open Source than give Apple a
> dime.

Bully for you!

>
>>> More and more Apple is running to the consumer, not the professional.
>>> And yeah, in my opinion that makes them crap. The whole product is crap.
>>> OSX, the Mac, and yes Apple itself for constantly selling us something
>>> only to run away from it with their tail between their legs.
>>
>> Sorry, but even if true, that doesn't make "OSX crap".
>
> It sure does.

Nope.

>
>>> Where is the XServe? Where is the XSAN? OSX Server sucks. Does Apple eat
>>> their own Dog food? No. They rely on everyone else. Google, Amazon AWS
>>> and Azure. They spend more than a billion a year subscribing to the
>>> services of the big three. Why is that?
>>
>> In what specific way does "OSX [sig] Server suck[]"? Are you going to
>> say that it's because you can't buy a rack-mount server to run it on?
>
> No, because it sucks. Go to the Apple Store right now, type in OSX
> server, there are 15 ratings. 8 give it a 5. Six give it a 1. Now click
> on average rating for all versions. 92 give it a 5. A whopping 122 give
> it a 1. Even Apple's customers who bought it agree that it sucks. Many
> more say it is a 1 than those that say it is a 5.

So that's your best argument? Do you think that most of the people who 
use it are in there giving it reviews?

So you can't produce one concrete way in which "OSX [sic] sucks".

LOL

>
> Sounds to me like fans are propping it up but the real users call it
> like it is. It's crapware.
>
> // snip
>

LOL

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351357

From"Popkin" <Popkin@telus.net>
Date2016-04-22 19:59 -0400
Message-ID<nfedn5$fg3$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#351342

"Alan Baker"  wrote in message news:nfebfp$1rv$3@news.datemas.de...

On 2016-04-22 4:01 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>> On 2016-04-22 3:10 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>>> So let's just put it out there completely starkly:
>>>> You're claiming that the fact that Apple doesn't make a 4K monitor...
>>>>
>>>> ...despite there being hundreds of them available from other companies
>>>> that will work fine with a Mac...
>>>
>>> It proves Apple doesn't care about the pro customer. Seriously, look at
>>> the $1,000 monitor Apple sells. When was it last updated? The iMac which
>>> has a whole computer in it is thinner, by far, then that monitor. The
>>> iMac has 5k resolution available, but not that monitor. What does that
>>> tell you. Seriously, you spend $3m or $4m on a trash can flagship
>>> computer and the display option from Apple is a 72 dpi monitor that
>>> hasn't seen a single update in what, 5 or so years?
>>
>> So in order for Apple to care it has to provide hardware for everything
>> that every pro user might require?
>
> If you are going to make a "pro" product, then yes. What is Pro about
> the ipad Pro? A keyboard? Seriously, what makes it a pro product?

>Dude: are you hearing yourself?

Welcome back to the sixties, "Dude".  BWAHAAAHAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

Asshole.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#351363

FromAlan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
Date2016-04-22 17:04 -0700
Message-ID<nfee6i$e06$4@news.datemas.de>
In reply to#351357
On 2016-04-22 4:59 PM, Popkin wrote:
>
>
> "Alan Baker"  wrote in message news:nfebfp$1rv$3@news.datemas.de...
>
> On 2016-04-22 4:01 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>> On 2016-04-22 3:10 PM, Marek Novotny wrote:
>>>> On 2016-04-22, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote:
>>>>> So let's just put it out there completely starkly:
>>>>> You're claiming that the fact that Apple doesn't make a 4K monitor...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...despite there being hundreds of them available from other companies
>>>>> that will work fine with a Mac...
>>>>
>>>> It proves Apple doesn't care about the pro customer. Seriously, look at
>>>> the $1,000 monitor Apple sells. When was it last updated? The iMac
>>>> which
>>>> has a whole computer in it is thinner, by far, then that monitor. The
>>>> iMac has 5k resolution available, but not that monitor. What does that
>>>> tell you. Seriously, you spend $3m or $4m on a trash can flagship
>>>> computer and the display option from Apple is a 72 dpi monitor that
>>>> hasn't seen a single update in what, 5 or so years?
>>>
>>> So in order for Apple to care it has to provide hardware for everything
>>> that every pro user might require?
>>
>> If you are going to make a "pro" product, then yes. What is Pro about
>> the ipad Pro? A keyboard? Seriously, what makes it a pro product?
>
>> Dude: are you hearing yourself?
>
> Welcome back to the sixties, "Dude".  BWAHAAAHAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

LOL

>
> Asshole.

LOL

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