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What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?

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  What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-01 02:08 +0000
    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 08:11 +0100
      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-01 09:24 -0600
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-01-01 15:46 +0000
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 04:36 +0000
    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-01-01 10:13 +0000
      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-01-01 10:50 +0000
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 12:05 +0100
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-01-01 07:48 -0500
            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 15:33 +0100
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 15:36 +0000
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-01-01 13:24 -0500
                Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 20:36 +0100
                  Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 05:04 +0000
                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-02 08:47 +0100
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-01-01 19:40 +0000
                Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 21:16 +0100
                  Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-01-02 08:47 +0000
                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-02 11:46 +0100
                      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-01-02 21:04 +0000
                        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-02 18:40 -0600
                          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-01-03 09:10 +0000
                            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-03 11:24 -0600
                        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-03 07:32 +0100
                          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-01-03 09:28 +0000
                            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-03 11:40 -0600
                              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-03 18:36 +0000
                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 18:25 +0000
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 20:46 +0000
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 15:23 +0000
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-01 10:08 -0600
            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-01-01 17:07 +0000
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-01 11:55 -0600
            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 18:59 +0000
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-01 20:31 +0100
                Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 20:57 +0000
                  Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-01 22:55 +0100
                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-02 16:34 +0000
                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 18:31 +0000
                      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-02 21:24 +0100
                  Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-02 02:02 -0600
                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-02 15:26 +0100
                      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 18:42 +0000
                        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-02 21:25 +0100
                          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-03 04:42 +0000
                            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-03 11:48 +0100
                              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-03 16:23 +0000
                              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-03 19:58 +0100
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-02 01:56 -0600
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 11:59 +0000
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-01-01 16:57 +0000
            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 21:32 +0000
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-01-01 22:33 +0000
                Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 05:31 +0000
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-01 09:29 -0600
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 16:14 +0000
            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 05:17 +0000
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 01:14 +0000
    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-01 19:52 +0100
      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 21:05 +0100
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-01 20:49 +0000
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 05:50 +0000
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 06:00 +0000
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-02 11:35 +0100
            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-02 15:55 +0100
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-02 17:26 +0100
                Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 18:51 +0000
                  Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-02 21:17 +0100
                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-03 04:51 +0000
                      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-03 11:49 +0100
    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-01 23:19 +0100
      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 01:28 +0000
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-02 02:08 -0600
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2025-01-02 18:58 +0000
            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-03 23:29 +0100
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-03 23:28 +0100
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-04 00:30 -0600
    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Siard <xx@xx.invalid> - 2025-01-04 13:24 +0100
      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-04 13:39 +0100
        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-04 18:25 +0000
          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-04 15:10 -0600
            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-04 23:15 +0100
              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-05 11:07 +0100
                Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-05 11:34 -0600
                  Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-01-06 10:00 +0100
                  Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-10 18:14 +0100
                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-01-10 17:33 +0000
                      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-11 12:52 +0100
                        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-11 14:01 -0600
                          Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-12 16:39 +0100
                            Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-12 17:53 -0600
                              Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-13 17:29 +0100
                                Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-01-13 15:39 -0600
                                  Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-14 09:57 +0100
                                    Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-14 13:24 +0100
                                      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-01-14 20:51 +0100
                                        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-14 22:59 +0100
                        Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-01-13 09:20 +0000
      Re: What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS? Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-01-11 08:58 -0500

Page 2 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5  Next page →

#146075

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I don't disagree, but that's what happens over a long development time. 
> However, nobody else is better placed than those inside Google to know 
> what Android does. And that's what  concerns me - who knows what 
> "innocent" code they've included that nobody else knows about? Have 
> Graphene and others /really/ looked through all the code and know what 
> it does?

As a software QA tester, I would visit the programmer responsible for
the part of the software they were working on to ask about testing
procedure, and about what-if scenarios.  Too often they didn't know, it
was someone else's coding job, but that guy only knew that code, and not
the entire product, and often the response to many what-if scenarios is
they wouldn't happen (but I can reproduce them then so can customers).

Too often the programmers would add "innocent" code they thought was
helpful, but didn't like when I required a new check-in code branch
which exposed their little changes, and their little fixups as a result.
When they made even a little change, we in QA had to come up with
testing for it, but the devs didn't document the changes in the
Functional or Engineering Spec docs, and we'd find it by accident.  We
had weekly review meetings during development, and sometimes I'd ask a
question that had all the devs turning their heads, and no one offering
a response.  Too many cooks making a meal.

I haven't heard that the Android OS or Graphene OS have had independent
audits despite they may be free open source.  FOSS doesn't guarantee
anyone outside the dev team has inspected the code.  

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#146082

On 03/01/2025 00:40, VanguardLH wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> I don't disagree, but that's what happens over a long development time.
>> However, nobody else is better placed than those inside Google to know
>> what Android does. And that's what  concerns me - who knows what
>> "innocent" code they've included that nobody else knows about? Have
>> Graphene and others /really/ looked through all the code and know what
>> it does?
> 
> As a software QA tester, I would visit the programmer responsible for
> the part of the software they were working on to ask about testing
> procedure, and about what-if scenarios.  Too often they didn't know, it
> was someone else's coding job, but that guy only knew that code, and not
> the entire product, and often the response to many what-if scenarios is
> they wouldn't happen (but I can reproduce them then so can customers).
> 
> Too often the programmers would add "innocent" code they thought was
> helpful, but didn't like when I required a new check-in code branch
> which exposed their little changes, and their little fixups as a result.
> When they made even a little change, we in QA had to come up with
> testing for it, but the devs didn't document the changes in the
> Functional or Engineering Spec docs, and we'd find it by accident.  We
> had weekly review meetings during development, and sometimes I'd ask a
> question that had all the devs turning their heads, and no one offering
> a response.  Too many cooks making a meal.

Thanks for that; it rather confirms my suspicions. I guess there could 
be code in their own AndroidOS that even "Google" doesn't know about.

> I haven't heard that the Android OS or Graphene OS have had independent
> audits despite they may be free open source.  FOSS doesn't guarantee
> anyone outside the dev team has inspected the code.

You might find these of interest:
<https://grapheneos.org/faq#audit>
<https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/i-dont-trust-pixel-graphene-where-are-the-authoritative-claims-of-its-credibility/17503>
<https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3448609>

-- 
Jeff

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#146108

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> I haven't heard that the Android OS or Graphene OS have had
>> independent audits despite they may be free open source.  FOSS
>> doesn't guarantee anyone outside the dev team has inspected the
>> code.
> 
> You might find these of interest:
> <https://grapheneos.org/faq#audit>
> <https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/i-dont-trust-pixel-graphene-where-are-the-authoritative-claims-of-its-credibility/17503>
> <https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3448609>

Rather than claim the code has been audited, prove the claim by
referencing the audits.  Anyone can say their code is audited.  Again,
being open source doesn't mean *independent* audit.  Nice to know,
though, their code is well documented.

AOSP projects are peered reviewed.  Well, we had weekly code reviews,
but guess who was reviewing the code.  They really didn't want QA
attending those meetings, and even we weren't outside auditors.
Independent audit means non-peer review.

A published paper describing how security (and only that facet) should
work in an OS is not an independent audit of the code.  Just a
description of how it should work.  Still, it's interesting reading.

While I've found no independent audits of GrapheneOS, I suspect any such
code reviews would be on Android (haven't found audits for that, either)
while any variations thereof would get passed over.  Android has lots of
users.  GrapheneOS not so much.  I've seen guesses there are 175K
GrapheneOS users.  Android is estimated at 3 billion.

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#146081

Jeff,

> Well, Google didn't invent Android, but if you look at
[Link #1]
[Link #2]

Thanks for that.

> Effectively, unless you're going to suggest that the 20-years old 
> pre-Google Android is what Graphene and others developed their OS
> from, it can /only/ have come from stripping down Google's Android.
...
> And that's what  concerns me - who knows what "innocent" code they've 
> included that nobody else knows about?

Thats where my "I applied logic there" came from.

But, if all is as you described it looks like the creators of GrapheneOS had 
little choice than to strip Googles android.    I always thought that a 
basic Android was out there too.

I can only hope that Google didn't put its stuff into Androids Linux kernel 
...

> On an unrelated point, I was surprised to see that GrapheneOS uses 
> automatic updates only. There's no choice - their OS is updated whether 
> you want it or not. That's not what I would have expected.

I was thinking of turning off automatic updating*, and would also be 
negativily surprised not being able to find it.

* didn't yet look for it, as I consider that phone to be a tool, not a 
computer on which I do, to me, important stuff (read: hobby programming).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#146083

On 03/01/2025 06:32, R.Wieser wrote:

> I can only hope that Google didn't put its stuff into Androids Linux kernel

All phone manufacturers, including Google (for its Pixel), would 
probably have to modify the kernel in order for it to work with whatever 
hardware they've included in the phone. As the kernel would have to 
interact with the OS, it's probable that Google (and Chinese suppliers 
who were not allowed to use Google's AndroidOS, and so had to write 
their own), had to rewrite parts of the kernel so it could do that.

The very first sentence of 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)> starts 
"Android is a mobile operating system based on a *modified* version of 
the Linux kernel..." (my emphasis!).

>> On an unrelated point, I was surprised to see that GrapheneOS uses
>> automatic updates only. There's no choice - their OS is updated whether
>> you want it or not. That's not what I would have expected.
> 
> I was thinking of turning off automatic updating*, and would also be
> negativily surprised not being able to find it.

<https://grapheneos.org/faq#updates>

> * didn't yet look for it, as I consider that phone to be a tool, not a
> computer on which I do, to me, important stuff (read: hobby programming).

Most of the general public use a cellphone as their only "computer". 
Even if they once owned a desktop or laptop, changes to the telephone 
system mean that they no longer bother with a router and broadband 
connection.

-- 
Jeff

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#146110

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Most of the general public use a cellphone as their only "computer". 
> Even if they once owned a desktop or laptop, changes to the telephone 
> system mean that they no longer bother with a router and broadband 
> connection.

Yep, us desktop PC users are feeling like an endangered species: 40%
global web traffic compared to 58% for mobile devices (78% of which is
by Android users).  Considering the toy computer it is, small display,
and lack of good input devices (unless you Bluetooth a keyboard and
mouse), I dislike web surfing on a phone.  Still, it beats lugging a
laptop or notebook on a vacation.  A big smartphone in a belt holster
beats toting around a bag with a laptop.

There must be some age break for those that do and don't suffer
nomophobia.  Some folks have withdrawl symptoms if they don't have their
phone on them all the time.

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#146113

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > Most of the general public use a cellphone as their only "computer". 
> > Even if they once owned a desktop or laptop, changes to the telephone 
> > system mean that they no longer bother with a router and broadband 
> > connection.
> 
> Yep, us desktop PC users are feeling like an endangered species: 40%
> global web traffic compared to 58% for mobile devices (78% of which is
> by Android users).  Considering the toy computer it is, small display,
> and lack of good input devices (unless you Bluetooth a keyboard and
> mouse), I dislike web surfing on a phone.  Still, it beats lugging a
> laptop or notebook on a vacation.  A big smartphone in a belt holster
> beats toting around a bag with a laptop.

  The "mobile devices" category probably includes tablets. IME, most
households which have mobile phones, also have tablets or/and laptops.

> There must be some age break for those that do and don't suffer
> nomophobia.  Some folks have withdrawl symptoms if they don't have their
> phone on them all the time.

  "Some"!? :-)

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#146061

Jeff Layman wrote on Thu, 2 Jan 2025 08:47:14 +0000 :

> Android is said to have 12 million lines of code. Is it really 
> known to anyone outside Google what all of them do?

Hi Jeff,

Happy New Year!

We've worked together on plenty of things in the past, so it's good to see
you back, where you must know that Rudy has an IQ no higher than about 50.

Anyway, regarding Graphene OS, it's my understanding, as it is yours, that
it's a de-googled Android, which, much like ungoogled chromium, starts with
the base code and, one by one, removes the data collection, blocks
tracking, and focuses on user control - all of which are good things.

As for me, I can't install GrapheneOS because my bootloader is not known to
be rootable - so the simplest alternative to Graphene OS is what I do now.

1. I never set up Android to have a Google account integral in Settings.
2. I delete every Google app and package that doesn't break the system.
3. I replace each Google functionality I like, with its private equivalent.

This works for me, but I'm more intelligent than most people on this ng
are, so it won't work for the vast majority of posters to this newsgroup.

But for those who own a modicum of knowledge, it's EASY to gain a huge leap
in privacy simply by performing a few extremely logical very simple acts.

A. Never allow the Google Account to become part of the Android settings.
B. Log into Google GMail using any privacy-aware MUA (plenty exist).
C. Log into the Google Play Store repo using a privacy-aware app finder.
D. Log into the Google YouTube database using a privacy-aware replacement.
E. Replace the Chrome browser with a privacy-aware replacement.
etc.

In my humblest of opinions, this is so logical and simple that anyone who
"complains" that they can't have privacy is simply stating that their IQ is
too low for them to understand the most basic simple components of privacy.

Specifically, people like Rudy complain that they can't have privacy but
what they're really telling us is their IQ is too low for them to
understand it. 

So these low-IQ ignorant defeatists like Rudy claim, sans any evidence
whatsoever, that GrapheneOS is riddled with privacy holes, when it's not.

VanguardLH does the same thing. Their IQ is too low for them to understand.
Yours is not, thank God.

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#146011

R.Wieser <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> Newyana2,
[...]
> > I'm amazed that these companies are allowed, legally, to exert such 
> > control over a device I paid for.
> 
> I hope you're not running Win10/11, which has become nothing more than a 
> thick ethernet client and doubling as an advertising platform. :-)

  This is not a Windows group, so let's not drift too much, but you
still can use Windows 10 and 11 without a Microsoft account and if you
answer no to all the 'prying' questions or/and set all 'prying' settings
to off, you get *no* ads, not from Microsoft, nor from any other
company. *Unless* of course, you're an paranoid American, because then
you deserve to get what you spread FUD, urban legends, etc. about! :-)

[...]

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#145988

R.Wieser <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> Theo,
> 
> > To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account
> 
> Which is a good reason no to use it.
> 
> I could imagine using an open-source or freeware map app in which you can 
> locally(!) record the path you've walked (and calculate/estimate the total 
> length of that path) ?

  FTR, Fitbit *can* track your position/route, but only if you enable
that function (it can use its own GPS (if it has one) or use your
phone's GPS (if you carry it with you)). (I don't have that function
enabled.)

  But as its name implies, its main function is as an activity tracker;
steps, (estimated) distance, (estimated) calories, heart rate, oxygen
saturation and sleep analysis.

  As I mentioned before, 'smartwatches' are a different category  of
devices, but the functions largely overlap, i.e. 'smartwatches' have
activity tracking and sleep analysis and 'activity trackers' are also
watches and somewhat 'smart.

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#145993

"R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote:

> Theo,
> 
>> To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account
> 
> Which is a good reason no to use it.

And what would be the suggested alternative that does not require ANY
account anywhere while still just as robust, or even more robust, in
features?  What is better than Fitbit, but with no account?  Didn't
those extra/premium services require a Fitbit account (now a Google
account)?  Do the better than Fitbit alternatives also have availability
of those extra services, too?

Google acquired Fitbit.  Maybe that's why a Google account later became
required.  Did/does Fitbit not allow storing of historical data to an
online account?

https://www.fitbit.com/global/us/technology/compatible-devices

  A Google Account is required for all new users.

  A Google Account is required to activate new Fitbit devices released 
  after the launch of Google Accounts for Fitbit.

  Existing users have the option to use either a Google Account or their 
  existing Fitbit account until at least 2025 at which point they will 
  be required to use a Google Account for login.
  
So, Fitbit devices had a Fitbit account.  Google acquired Fitbit, and
wanted to leverage their authentication services instead of maintaining
a setup in which they were never involved.  There are premium services
that cost money, so I can see Google wanted payment to be controlled by
Google, not whatever Fitbit used before.

I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe.  Doesn't upload anything to any
account.  I never bought any premium services.  I don't need all those
extras for how I use it.  The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
Android app.  Don't need an online account for that.

Fitbit is a company name that produces several models of mobile devices.
Maybe the Fitbit 2 and Luxe are considered too limited to bother with an
online account (whether it was with Fitbit or now with Google), or I
never upgraded to paid features which would then require an account.

https://support.google.com/fitbit/?visit_id=638713434358117766-3078936505&p=sp_hc_fitbit&rd=1#topic=14236398

From what I saw there, it isn't the device itself that mandates using a
Fitbit/Google account, but the app ran on the smart phone.  However,
Fitbit upped the minimum supported Android version which eliminates my
phone (back on Android 8).  I get "Not compatible" with my phone when I
visit the Play Store page for Fitbit.  So, I cannot test if the app can
be installed, BT paired to the Fitbit Luxe, and not buy any premium
services to see if I'm forced to have a Google account.  I don't recall
ever having a Fitbit account, because I never paid for any extra stuff
nor wanted to.

It looks like after Google's acquisition that new Fitbit devices via the
Android app must get registered.

https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/14226283?hl=en#:~:text=A%20Google%20Account%20is%20required%20to%20activate%20new%20Fitbit%20devices,a%20Google%20Account%20for%20login.

There it mentions Android 10 is the minimum, so my old phone is out.

When someone says "Fitbit", I think of the device on my wrist, not of
the app on a phone.  I think "Fitbit" to the OP meant the app.  I'm
still using the Fitbit device without any Fitbit app on my old phone.
The device still works by itself.  I don't need "To make full use of the
Fitbit products and services", because I never used those extras.  And
now their app won't install on my old phone, so the Fitbit device has
nowhere to communicate, anyway.

What are those extra "Fitbit services" that I never needed nor wanted?
When I did have the app, I never had to activate the device.  I just
paired the device to the app, and that was it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#146000

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > Theo,
> > 
> >> To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account
> > 
> > Which is a good reason no to use it.
> 
> And what would be the suggested alternative that does not require ANY
> account anywhere while still just as robust, or even more robust, in
> features?  What is better than Fitbit, but with no account?  Didn't
> those extra/premium services require a Fitbit account (now a Google
> account)?  Do the better than Fitbit alternatives also have availability
> of those extra services, too?

There are devices that are supported by Gadgetbridge, which need no account
and just sync via Bluetooth to the open source Gadgetbridge app on the
phone.  I have no idea how they compare on features - that likely depends on
what you want it for (notifications v fitness v health v communications).

> When someone says "Fitbit", I think of the device on my wrist, not of
> the app on a phone.  I think "Fitbit" to the OP meant the app.  I'm
> still using the Fitbit device without any Fitbit app on my old phone.
> The device still works by itself.  I don't need "To make full use of the
> Fitbit products and services", because I never used those extras.  And
> now their app won't install on my old phone, so the Fitbit device has
> nowhere to communicate, anyway.

It depends on the device, some have no display or a very basic display, and
some features are only available in the app (eg tracking trends).

> What are those extra "Fitbit services" that I never needed nor wanted?
> When I did have the app, I never had to activate the device.  I just
> paired the device to the app, and that was it.

You can't pair to the app without a Google account.  'Sign in' is the very
first screen.

Theo

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#146001

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>
>> When I did have the app, I never had to activate the device.  I just
>> paired the device to the app, and that was it.
> 
> You can't pair to the app without a Google account.  'Sign in' is the
> very first screen.

Probably because Google decided to require registration of the devices,
and the app is of no use unless it gets paired to a device.  Seems
overreaching to require registration of the devices that the user paid
for.  This is not the situation where the devices are Google's property.
But their app is.

Google completed the $2.1B acquisition of Fitbit back in the start of
2021, but haven't required switching from a Fitbit account to a Google
account until 2025 (which is now).  2 years after acquisition Google
decided to discontinue the Fitbit smartwatches.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/why-google-quietly-discontinuing-fitbit-170315663.html

So, what of the $2.1B is left for the Fitbit product line?  Just the
health trackers?

Despite now mandating a login to a Google account to just install the
app, users are complaining the app doesn't stay logged in.  They have to
repeatedly re-login.  With all the troubles reported with the
Google-ized app, seems Google is also trying to kill off the rest of
their $2.1B outlay by killing off the other Fitbit devices in making
them too difficult to use with the app.  Of course, fucking up the app
only affects those that feel compelled to use the device with an app.

I got spared the mandatory login requirement.  Fitbit decided to up the
minimum supported Android version, and I wasn't buying a new phone just
to satisfy their moving requirements.  The Fitbit device still works all
by itself.  When I buy a toaster, I don't need an app to use it.  I
never used the app other than to play with it at first.  Interest waned,
and I uninstalled it.  Later when I decided to trial it again, oops,
latest version no longer compatible with my old phone.  Oh well, no loss
to me, anyway.

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#146004

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

> I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe.  Doesn't upload anything to any
> account.  I never bought any premium services.  I don't need all those
> extras for how I use it.  The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
> Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
> Android app.  Don't need an online account for that.

  I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
where "<something>" is the relevant part.

  Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.

  So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
which one?

  I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.

[...]

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#146005

On 2025-01-01 19:59, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> [...]
> 
>> I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe.  Doesn't upload anything to any
>> account.  I never bought any premium services.  I don't need all those
>> extras for how I use it.  The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
>> Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
>> Android app.  Don't need an online account for that.
> 
>    I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
> where "<something>" is the relevant part.
> 
>    Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
> Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
> sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
> Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
> 
>    So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
> which one?

Google Fit.

> 
>    I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
> to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
> account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.
> 
> [...]


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#146015

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-01 19:59, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> > [...]
> > 
> >> I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe.  Doesn't upload anything to any
> >> account.  I never bought any premium services.  I don't need all those
> >> extras for how I use it.  The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
> >> Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
> >> Android app.  Don't need an online account for that.
> > 
> >    I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
> > where "<something>" is the relevant part.
> > 
> >    Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
> > Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
> > sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
> > Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
> > 
> >    So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
> > which one?
> 
> Google Fit.

  Are you sure? The Google Fit entry on the Google Play site [1] doesn't
even mention Fitbit in its list of devices and its website [2] doesn't
list any devices.

  I always thought that *other* *apps* (not devices), could talk to
Google Fit and that Google Fit then showed a consolidation of all the
data.

  IIRC, I used Google Fit in the past, but I can't remember with which
app/service/device.

> >    I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
> > to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
> > account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.
> > 
> > [...]

[1]
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.fitness>

[2] <https://www.google.com/fit/>

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#146017

On 2025-01-01 21:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2025-01-01 19:59, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe.  Doesn't upload anything to any
>>>> account.  I never bought any premium services.  I don't need all those
>>>> extras for how I use it.  The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
>>>> Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
>>>> Android app.  Don't need an online account for that.
>>>
>>>     I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
>>> where "<something>" is the relevant part.
>>>
>>>     Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
>>> Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
>>> sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
>>> Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
>>>
>>>     So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
>>> which one?
>>
>> Google Fit.
> 
>    Are you sure? The Google Fit entry on the Google Play site [1] doesn't
> even mention Fitbit in its list of devices and its website [2] doesn't
> list any devices.
> 
>    I always thought that *other* *apps* (not devices), could talk to
> Google Fit and that Google Fit then showed a consolidation of all the
> data.

I don't know for sure where it gets its data from, but it is there. 
Maybe Google Fit talks with Fitbit app.

I had that app installed from before, then one day I noticed that it had 
data that seemed to come from the watch. Yes, looking there is displays 
my siesta data as coming from Fitbit. It also shows the map of my walk 
this afternoon, with a label that says "Fitbit".

In the details, it shows the elevation graph of the walk, something that 
is missing in the Fitbit app.

I remember vaguely saying yes to share data, but I don't remember which 
of the two apps. Maybe both.

> 
>    IIRC, I used Google Fit in the past, but I can't remember with which
> app/service/device.
> 
>>>     I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
>>> to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
>>> account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.
>>>
>>> [...]
> 
> [1]
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.fitness>
> 
> [2] <https://www.google.com/fit/>


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#146059

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-01 21:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 2025-01-01 19:59, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>>> I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe.  Doesn't upload anything to any
> >>>> account.  I never bought any premium services.  I don't need all those
> >>>> extras for how I use it.  The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
> >>>> Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
> >>>> Android app.  Don't need an online account for that.
> >>>
> >>>     I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
> >>> where "<something>" is the relevant part.
> >>>
> >>>     Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
> >>> Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
> >>> sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
> >>> Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
> >>>
> >>>     So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
> >>> which one?
> >>
> >> Google Fit.
> > 
> >    Are you sure? The Google Fit entry on the Google Play site [1] doesn't
> > even mention Fitbit in its list of devices and its website [2] doesn't
> > list any devices.
> > 
> >    I always thought that *other* *apps* (not devices), could talk to
> > Google Fit and that Google Fit then showed a consolidation of all the
> > data.
> 
> I don't know for sure where it gets its data from, but it is there. 
> Maybe Google Fit talks with Fitbit app.
> 
> I had that app installed from before, then one day I noticed that it had 
> data that seemed to come from the watch. Yes, looking there is displays 
> my siesta data as coming from Fitbit. It also shows the map of my walk 
> this afternoon, with a label that says "Fitbit".
> 
> In the details, it shows the elevation graph of the walk, something that 
> is missing in the Fitbit app.
> 
> I remember vaguely saying yes to share data, but I don't remember which 
> of the two apps. Maybe both.

  Thanks.

> >    IIRC, I used Google Fit in the past, but I can't remember with which
> > app/service/device.
  
  I looked for my notes ("grep 'Google Fit' *" :-)) and it turns out I
tried Google Fit with Fitbit and Sleep as Android.

  With Fitbit, Google Fit only showed distance, calories and steps.
  
  With Sleep as Android, Google Fit only showed time-slept.
  
  So for both Fitbit and Sleep as Android, the 'integration' with Google
Fit wasn't useful and I uninstalled Googlle Fit.

> >>>     I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
> >>> to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
> >>> account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.
> >>>
> >>> [...]
> > 
> > [1]
> > <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.fitness>
> > 
> > [2] <https://www.google.com/fit/>

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#146062

Carlos E.R. wrote on Wed, 1 Jan 2025 22:55:39 +0100 :

> In the details, it shows the elevation graph of the walk, something that 
> is missing in the Fitbit app.

Luckily, we've solved the problem of replacing Google FitBit with
equivalent privacy-aware functionality in this new companion thread.

 *For privacy, what is a suitable alternative to the Google FitBit app on Android?*
 <https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=56645&group=comp.mobile.android#56645>

All it takes is a modicum of intelligence to replace FitBit features with
privacy-aware equivalent functionality (which doesn't involve the forfeit
of privacy by setting up a Google Account integral to the Android system).

For example,
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.secuso.privacyfriendlyactivitytracker>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#146068

On 2025-01-02 19:31, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote on Wed, 1 Jan 2025 22:55:39 +0100 :
> 
>> In the details, it shows the elevation graph of the walk, something 
>> that is missing in the Fitbit app.
> 
> Luckily, we've solved the problem of replacing Google FitBit with
> equivalent privacy-aware functionality in this new companion thread.
> 
> *For privacy, what is a suitable alternative to the Google FitBit app on 
> Android?*
> <https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php? 
> id=56645&group=comp.mobile.android#56645>
> 
> All it takes is a modicum of intelligence to replace FitBit features with
> privacy-aware equivalent functionality (which doesn't involve the forfeit
> of privacy by setting up a Google Account integral to the Android system).
> 
> For example,
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details? 
> id=org.secuso.privacyfriendlyactivitytracker>

Have you verified that it talks with the fitbit smart watches and gets 
ALL the data? AFAIK, that Pedometer only does that, pedometry.

Removing the privacy group, which you added silently.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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