Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.mobile.android > #72553 > unrolled thread

cellular needed for Covid tracking?

Back to article view | Back to comp.mobile.android

Contents

  cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-07 21:10 -0500
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-07 21:24 -0500
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-08 05:26 +0000
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-08 04:05 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 00:13 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-08 05:23 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 15:14 -0500
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-08 21:10 +0000
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-08 02:11 -0600
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-08 08:54 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-08 16:39 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? KenW                                        <ken1943@invalid.net> - 2020-12-08 13:01 -0700
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-08 21:11 +0100
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 15:20 -0500
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? KenW                                        <ken1943@invalid.net> - 2020-12-08 14:09 -0700
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-08 20:40 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 12:57 +1300
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-01-02 03:25 +0100
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2021-01-02 05:07 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 15:14 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-08 21:57 +0100
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2020-12-08 21:26 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 13:24 +0100
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2020-12-09 13:09 +0000
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2020-12-09 08:41 -0500
                  Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 15:37 +0100
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-09 14:55 +0000
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 23:36 +0100
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2020-12-09 18:21 -0500
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-09 23:32 +0000
                            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-12-09 17:07 -0800
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-10 06:41 -0700
                            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2020-12-10 09:29 -0500
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-09 23:25 +0000
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2020-12-09 15:00 +0000
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-09 09:08 -0700
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2020-12-09 19:45 +0000
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-09 12:56 -0700
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-10 09:29 +0000
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-10 06:39 -0700
                            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-11 06:14 -0500
                            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:06 +1300
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 11:10 -0600
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:13 +1300
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-10 01:42 -0500
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-10 01:53 -0500
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-10 06:48 -0700
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-10 06:54 -0700
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-10 21:17 +0100
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-11 10:12 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-08 23:51 -0600
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-09 06:00 -0500
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-09 11:16 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 10:40 -0600
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-09 11:56 -0500
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-09 20:43 +0000
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-09 21:45 +0000
                  Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-10 09:55 +0000
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-10 11:58 -0600
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-10 13:47 -0500
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-10 19:10 +0000
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-10 21:29 +0100
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-01-01 22:52 -0600
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2021-01-02 05:03 +0000
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2021-01-02 03:33 -0500
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-01-03 13:48 +0100
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-10 21:52 +0000
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:33 +1300
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:50 +1300
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2021-01-02 05:00 +0000
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-01-02 10:27 +0000
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2021-01-02 17:09 +0000
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 14:17 +1300
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 23:43 +0100
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 13:34 +0100
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> - 2020-12-09 16:06 +0100
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 10:43 -0600
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2020-12-09 22:39 +0100
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2020-12-09 22:37 +0100
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-08 15:44 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-08 21:17 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-08 17:11 -0500
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-09 02:06 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-09 08:13 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 10:45 -0600
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-09 16:55 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 11:30 -0600
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-09 11:56 -0500
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-09 20:19 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> - 2020-12-09 22:15 +0100
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-10 09:49 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-11 09:56 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-11 14:57 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-10 09:14 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-10 09:29 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2020-12-10 08:58 -0700
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-10 21:35 +0100
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-10 21:48 +0000
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-12-10 14:06 -0800
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2020-12-10 18:50 -0700
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-11 04:16 +0100
                  Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-11 03:27 +0000
                  Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-11 09:46 +0000
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-11 03:21 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-10 12:00 -0600
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-08 08:21 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-08 15:45 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 15:14 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-08 20:34 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-14 17:37 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-10 08:52 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-10 10:28 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-11 09:40 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-14 22:31 +0000
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-12-23 19:35 -0800

Page 4 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6  Next page →

#72643

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 13:47:22 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> The same argument could be made against Microsoft and all their
>> affiliates in building Windows.  Yep, all those experts, and the OS is
>> still vulnerable.
> 
> irrelevant.

Hi nospam,

Permit me a chuckle, that you (correctly) call an irrelevant claim...
o "irrelevant"

o Why do apologists like Alan Baker & nospam desperately try to shift the blame of Apple bugs to Google & Microsoft?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/LOQx1Ok-79c>
-- 
The problem with the surveillance apps is they stand zero chance of being
effective in a Western Democracy (and that's a good thing for democracy).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72646

On 10/12/2020 18.58, VanguardLH wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

...

> There is also the issue of the haves and have nots.  Not everyone has a
> computer nor does everyone have a smartphone.  Of all cell phone users,
> some just have a dumb phone because all they want to do is make calls,
> not install apps or want or need mobile Internet access.  The elderly
> and poor have a lower adoption rate of smartphones, but they are higher
> risk.  Even those with smartphones have to elect to install a GAEN or
> ENE app, and they need to leave Bluetooth on all the time (which has a
> vulnerability along with drawing more power for the BT radio), and they
> need to leave the app running in the background eating up more memory
> and CPU cycles.

I don't notice any battery drain. At the end of the day, total battery
usage was about 1/3, same as before.


> 
> "If an app user learns they are infected, they can grant a public health
> authority permission to publicly share their temporary exposure keys."
> 
> Does these GAEN/ENE apps prompt on installation that the user is
> granting permission to share their temporary exposure keys?  There could
> be the assumption, but with the GDPR you'd think the grant must be
> explicitly stated during installation or when loading the app.

AFTER infection, and they need ask for permission at that point. You can
refuse.

> 
> https://developers.google.com/android/exposure-notifications/exposure-notifications-api
> "Your app must have the BLUETOOTH and INTERNET permission in its
> manifest, but your app doesn't require and can't include
> ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION, ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION, nor BLUETOOTH_ADMIN."
> 
> So, it appears Google and Apple mandate the tracking apps cannot track
> geolocation of the phone.  With the vague description offered here, so
> far, I had to go check myself.

It is correct, at least the app we have in Spain does not track
location. It just happens that the BT "proximity" belongs to the
"location permission" set, because BT can be used to track location
inside buildings by identifying which fixed BT emitters are nearby
inside that building. But the google API does not give the location data
to the app. Which is confusing.



-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72926

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> I don't notice any battery drain. At the end of the day, total battery
> usage was about 1/3, same as before.

You think a powered-on radio draws no power?

> AFTER infection, and they need ask for permission at that point. You
> can refuse.

I asked about when *installing* the GAEN/ENE app does it notify the user
about the data sharing and tracking?  Are users of such apps assumed to
be fully educated on how it works?  Not all tracking apps, especially
the state-backed ones, are using the Google/Apple scheme.  Informing
users has degraded over a long time, and apps typically install without
giving any info to the user, and often ask for permissions that confuse
the user why they are needed.

After Covid fades into obscurity (to the same degree as, say, leprosy),
and these apps no longer have purpose, just what will the Google/Apple
scheme, and those created by other tech companies for use by gov'ts, be
used for?  What will be the next excuse for tracking phone users?

Where voluntary, adoption has been dismal which makes ineffective this
tracking scheme, along with the mess in deployment and coordination with
medical authorities to make use of the tech.  It's not voluntary
everywhere, though.  India mandates the use of their state-backed
tracking app that is nowhere as private as the Google/Apple scheme.  Not
all contact tracking apps operate the same way.

Not all contact tracking apps are using Google/Apple privacy-focused
technology, and instead they are apps communicating with gov't servers
that gather the data.  Norway's own app failed MIT's testing for
privacy.  Because of the lack of upfront exposure to privacy practices,
data collection, and other tasks performed by the apps, MIT started
doing their own reviews.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/07/1000961/launching-mittr-covid-tracing-tracker/

Can ANY of the Covid contact tracking apps detect another smartphone
they contact via Bluetooth is actually in possession of a human rather
than just sitting on a nearby table?  How about apartment dwellers with
phones on chargers on bedside tables just across a divider wall?
Apartments are laid out with similar rooms adjacent to each other, like
bathrooms sharing a divider wall to share the plumbing, and bedrooms
tend to be across a shared wall.  Just because one phone can find
another doesn't mean they are attached to a person.  Some places don't
just have a plexy shield between employee and customer, but a plexy wall
separating them.  If you've been in NYC, being next to another car at
stops or even moving for 5-10 minutes is not a rare scenario.  The apps
only track when phones were near each other for awhile, not if people
were actually exposed to each other.  No one cares about their phones
getting Covid.

Sorry, but the more I read up on this topic the more it looks like some
technophile's wet dream.  Plus, by the time there is significant
penetration (adoption) for these apps to be effective, the problem will
be gone.  In countries where use is voluntary, adoption by users has
been low; i.e., deployment has been dismal.  By the time voluntary
adoption rates increase to be effective, the need will be outdated.

I'm supposed to get scared into getting tested because someone's phone
that found mine for a minimum duration threshold sends an alert to my
phone.  Their phone was near mine, the other person tests positive, and
I get an alert.  Then what?  Not everywhere lets you get an immediate
test, and I've yet to see a phone alert as a means of escalating your
priority for testing ("Lookie, I've got a phone alert that I might've
been exposed to someone's phone whose owner tested positive").  Even if
you can schedule a test, it will be several days before getting tested
during which I'm supposedly exposing others.  Last time I managed to
schedule a test was 2 weeks away.  Plus, the test may be covered by
health insurance, but it may not, so you may have to pocket the cost.
Are you going to spend $23 to $2315 (cost varies widely) to get tested
because someone's phone was near yours?  Even if insured, how many tests
will your health insurer cover during over what time period?  Will they
cover getting tested for EVERY phone alert?  You think all those
free-to-you tests covered by your health insurer or state-back
socialized medicine won't get reflected later in higher premiums or
taxes?  You get a Covid contact tracking alert based on your phone and
another being near each other for awhile.  If adoption by users was
100%, the health cost for all the testing based merely on unreliable
phone alerts would be horrendous, and someone is going to pay for all
that testing.  There's no free lunch.

You mentioned Spain.  They rolled out their app about Oct 2020.  Absent
from the following article is how they implemented their tracking, like
does it use the Google/Apple anonymizing scheme, or is it some
state-backed server setup that collects whatever data they want?  Who
wrote the app for the gov't?

https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/spain-governments-contact-tracing-app-now-in-operation-throughout-country/

Until I read that article, I had not dawned on me that the codes the
health entity could issue to you (as the newly infected) were limited.
"a vulnerability in Radar Covid could allow attackers to fake users’
identities."  And yet, that exploit got dismissed by respondents here.

https://perma.cc/4UJ5-ZSX8

Yep, that vulnerability got fixed -- if you install the new app
versions, but exemplifies that bugs exist either in code or in behavior
or the app or service.  Once untoward goals become common and known then
hackers, malcontents, scammers, and gov't agents can subvert the scheme.
There hasn't been enough time or interest yet.  And then there's the
Bluetooth vulnerability which still has yet to get addressed, and with
greater risk to those that leave Bluetooth enabled all the time,
especially when using any always-on tracking app.

https://www.google.com/search?q=covid%20contact%20tracking%20app%20vulnerability

The more I investigate into this new and fledgling scheme and how it is
deployed, the more I'm convinced not to participate.  It might make you
feel warm and cozy.  That's not the feeling I'm getting.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72929

On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 22:52:57 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

> The more I investigate into this new and fledgling scheme and how it is
> deployed, the more I'm convinced not to participate.  It might make you
> feel warm and cozy.  That's not the feeling I'm getting.

Hi Vanguard,

Happy New Year!

I agree with Vanguard in that these apps can't possibly work and, worse,
they can only then be best used for purposes that are nefarious.

See tons of detail backing up that supposition here:
o Does a single person espousing the privacy sink covid trackers even know what a cytokine storm is? 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/sAcXqAUyZ_U> 
-- 
Posted, as always, out of the goodness of my heart, to help others.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72934

In article <4ycwmxj624va.dlg@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH>
wrote:

> 
> > I don't notice any battery drain. At the end of the day, total battery
> > usage was about 1/3, same as before.
> 
> You think a powered-on radio draws no power?

not enough to make a difference. bluetooth power drain is negligible.



> Can ANY of the Covid contact tracking apps detect another smartphone
> they contact via Bluetooth is actually in possession of a human rather
> than just sitting on a nearby table? 

there aren't very many phones sitting on a table without a human nearby.

> How about apartment dwellers with
> phones on chargers on bedside tables just across a divider wall?
> Apartments are laid out with similar rooms adjacent to each other, like
> bathrooms sharing a divider wall to share the plumbing, and bedrooms
> tend to be across a shared wall.  Just because one phone can find
> another doesn't mean they are attached to a person.

the signal is weak enough that it will be ignored.

> Some places don't
> just have a plexy shield between employee and customer, but a plexy wall
> separating them.  If you've been in NYC, being next to another car at
> stops or even moving for 5-10 minutes is not a rare scenario. 

sitting in traffic isn't long enough to matter and also far enough away
(i.e., weak signal) that it will be ignored.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72969

On 02/01/2021 05.52, VanguardLH wrote:

...

> You mentioned Spain.  They rolled out their app about Oct 2020.  Absent
> from the following article is how they implemented their tracking, like
> does it use the Google/Apple anonymizing scheme, or is it some
> state-backed server setup that collects whatever data they want?  Who
> wrote the app for the gov't?

All that is public information. The source code has been published.

https://github.com/RadarCOVID

Yes, it uses the Google/Apple API.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72650

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:58:07 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

> SSL was considered safe by those "numerous experts - in all kinds of
> fields - the world over, did for months on end" and used for many years
> until it was found vulnerable and replaced by TLS 1.1 and up (TLS 1.0 is
> just SSL 3.0 with different handshaking, so TLS 1.0 got deprecated,

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind these apps are huge holes.
o For example, iOS itself has never been sufficiently tested

What makes anyone think these apps have been tested for security?
o What worries me is that some countries make these insecure apps mandatory.

o Vulnerability in Qatar's MANDATORY COVID-19 app EHTERAZ put its users' private information at risk 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/nvM0-_EiD5s> 
o India's MANDATORY GPS-based Covid tracking app: Aarogya Setu: The story of a failure 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/SrKs0F8V1hI> 
o Alberta's COVID-19 tracking app ABTraceTogether requires some users to keep devices always unlocked with the app always active in the foreground 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PpSf61Jgasg> 
o Apparently, "Phase II" Apple/Google bluetooth API Covid tracking will be a likely mandatory component of both Android & OS (not a separate app!) 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/G6w72XSgaXE> 
o Apple's contact tracing API now available in Canada. 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/sX-AJCjrZNo> 
o Apple and Google Launch Exposure Notifications Express That Enables Contact Tracing Without Needing an App 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/p9RsZ-PXMqw> 
o Australia COVIDSafe Bug Still Not Fixed: Government Digital Transformation Agency (DTA) Insists Everything is Fine 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/J9UEVzV2NQE> 
o Bahrain "BeAware", Kuwait "Schlonik" & Norway "Smittestopp" contact tracing surveillance apps among most dangerous - mandatory live tracking via GPS in real time 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/QOQt51MBRYE> 
o BBC: Coronavirus: France set to roll out contact-tracing app before UK 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/xslI6dT9RgM> 
o Coronavirus: First Google/Apple-based contact-tracing app launched 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/uV-dW7KL0U8> 
o Does a single person espousing the privacy sink covid trackers even know what a cytokine storm is? 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/sAcXqAUyZ_U> 
o France rolls out its StopCovid Covid-19 surveillance & tracking app today on iOS and Android 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ZFDFdteB774> 
o Google promised privacy with coronavirus mass surveillance but governments says Google still can collect users' location data 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/k0TkX_GFgAQ> 
o Is the New Zealand contact tracing app "NZ COVID Tracer" even bluetooth yet? 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/zEZ3cWh3Sdw> 
o Italy has released its Immuni contact tracing surveillance app for pilot trials 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/gDIdxGJdjhI> 
o Japan contact tracing app "COCOA" launches this week using Microsoft to build it 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/LqTp__RVzAI> 
o Jordan covid tracking app AMAN which saves user location data & reports exposure data to others via the app itself... is awaiting approval by Apple 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/t0Ap6DtjVKA> 
o NHS UK-created NHSX contact tracing app ditches centralised surveillance after DHSC Isle of Wight testing 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/Be_hJD5afBI> 
o The best that the Singapore TraceTogether mass surveillance app can do is get 4% of your contacts under PERFECT circumstances 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/Zd8iLLPsJHk> 
o US states of South Dakota & North Dakota "Care19" covid tracking app on Google Play & the Apple iOS App Store records about half of where you've been 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/5hn0khNRy_g> 
o Virginia releases COVIDWISE Exposure Notification App [notice they carefully avoid the terms contact tracing] 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/4NIpT6tusJ0> 
o Vulnerability in Qatar's MANDATORY COVID-19 app EHTERAZ put its users' private information at risk 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/q1mBO_1ILKQ> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72920

On 11/12/2020 6:58 am, VanguardLH wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I think literally everything VanguardLH has claimed about the covid
>>> apps is wrong, just totally wrong - the info from google and apple
>>> is out there, and easy to understand.
>>
>> Yes, it's wrong and illogical.
>>    
>> I don't understand why someone, who has clearly little to no knowledge
>> of the subject matter at hand, makes such illogical assumptions,
>> builds weird scenarios based on those incorrect assumptions and then
>> apparently thinks he can shoot holes in the work that numerous
>> experts - in all kinds of fields - the world over, did for months on
>> end.
> 
> The same argument could be made against Microsoft and all their
> affiliates in building Windows.  Yep, all those experts, and the OS is
> still vulnerable.
> 
>>> please VH, do everyone a favour and go read it instead of continuing
>>> with the bullshit.
> 
> Yep, I am reading.  You are not.  It's not as rosy a picture as you
> would like others to believe.
> 
> https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/06/coronavirus-tracking-app-hacking-348601
> https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2020/09/30/covid-19-tracking-apps-leak-data/
> 
> Burying your head in the sand and thinking because laws exist means
> malcontents cannot exercise their evil deeds is wrong and illogical.
> Resorting to citing law as to how things work is a child's argument.
> Just because something should be doesn't mean it is.  God forbid anyone
> questions your choices.  These apps rely on Bluetooth connectivity and
> bypassing user prompting to allow pairing,

Again there is no pairing involved, just pinging.

> and I mentioned the Bluetooth
> vulnerability but, of course, you buried you head in the sand since that
> would get in your way of defending your choice.

You know I've seen your posts on usenet for decades now and I have to say that social media and 
associated 'echo chambers' have sure done a number on you! (I could be wrong, it may be dementia...)

I've been saying for years now that social media could well bring about the downfall of society. 
Sadly you've reinforced my belief. You used to be measured and sensible, a trustworthy voice in 
tech groups.
-- 
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification 
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72922

On 11/12/2020 6:58 am, VanguardLH wrote:
<snipped>
> There is also the requirement for the BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) aka BT
> 4.0, not just any Bluetooth, which further restricts which smartphones
> are compatible hence lowering the availability.  "The first smartphone
> to implement the 4.0 specification was the iPhone 4S, released in
> October 2011." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_Low_Energy).  I
> don't know the rate of adoption, but not all smartphones manufactured
> after 2011 had BLE/BT4.0, and old hardware isn't going to get modified.

As you well know lots of newer applications / programmes require newer hardware. Even though I was 
quite happy with my previous phone (which did have BT 4.0) I updated when I discovered I needed 
Android 7 or later to run the NZ COVID tracer app. Samsung had decided not to allow anything later 
than Android 6 on my 2017-bought phone. (I didn't buy another Samsung.)

Yeah it cost me NZ$300 that I couldn't afford but it's that kind of attitude that meant we in NZ 
got to have unrestricted Xmas and New Year celebrations.
-- 
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification 
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72928

On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 13:50:44 +1300, ~misfit~ wrote:

> Yeah it cost me NZ$300 that I couldn't afford but it's that kind of attitude that meant we in NZ 
> got to have unrestricted Xmas and New Year celebrations.
> Shaun.

Hi "Shaun",

This isn't your first infantile post that smelled like Rod Speed's 
infantile politics, so just be put on notice that I will be tracking your 
headers as everything you've posted smells of the same infantile crap.

With each infantile post by this "Shaun", I am beginning to smell yet 
another of the very many Rod Speed infantile sock puppets... especially 
with all the infantile politics needlessly thrown in seemingly 
gratuitously.

HINT: Cut your infantile political crap and I'll leave you alone.
-- 
The infantile trolls all first try to establish "credibility" on a 
newsgroup before they then bombard us with their infantile politics.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72935

~misfit~ wrote:

> we in NZ got to have unrestricted Xmas and New Year celebrations

Are people in .nz still a bit wary of being near friends, strangers, 
crowds?  Do you have mask or distance limits in public?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72945

On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 10:27:34 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> ple in .nz still a bit wary of bei

Hi Andy,
I assess you're talking to the Rod Speed set of infantile political trolls.
o Do what you like - I'm just informing you of that assessment.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72963

On 2/01/2021 11:27 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
> ~misfit~ wrote:
> 
>> we in NZ got to have unrestricted Xmas and New Year celebrations
> 
> Are people in .nz still a bit wary of being near friends, strangers, crowds?  Do you have mask or 
> distance limits in public?

No and no. We haven't had community transmission for a while now (though it's still showing up in 
border quarantine facilities).

Uptake of our app has been high and, although it's voluntary, some concert / festival / event 
promoters are requiring attendees to either scan a QR code (with the app) or manually fill out a 
form as a condition of entry.
-- 
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification 
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72620

On 09/12/2020 17.40, VanguardLH wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>   When you test positive, you get a call from the health authority
>> ('GGD'). You give them the unique key which is in your app, they check
>> if it's a valid key and then *you* (*not* the health authority) *can*
>> (note: voluntary, not mandatory) instruct your app to send the infection
>> notification to those other phones that have been in contact with yours
>> (for at least 15 minutes) during the last 14 days.
> 
> So anyone can send a false alert. 

No. The key the health authorities give you will work on your phone, not
on others. And trying to guess a string that will work in a given phone
is so difficult as to be considered impossible for a human.



>>   So you can not send out fake notifications and nobody knows anything
>> about anybody, except that - within the last 14 days - they've been in
>> close proximity - for at least 15 minutes - to someone who turned out to
>> be infected.
> 
> But those alerted don't know that the alert came from someone that was
> infected.  This is a trust model that is easily abused.  The phone owner
> gets to send an alert, not some authority that upon testing you has you
> send them your private key and database, so they send out the alert.

See above. Only the authority can give a valid key to someone to send
the correct alert.


>>   Again: Note that this is all documented in the app. The way it works,
>> what to do, documentation, FAQ, etc., the works. It also points to the
>> source code on GitHub. Absolutely nothing is secret or whatever. And the
>> whole thing is governed by law, which has been passed through both our
>> Chambers (House of Representatives and Senate).
> 
> Doesn't matter that the code is exposed (public) or not.  Doesn't stop
> abuse of the app.  From what you've described, so far, there is nothing
> to prevent deliberate false alerts.  There are laws against spam, but it
> continues.  The technology should not be in the hands of the phone
> owners to issue an alert.  They can install the app, they can use the
> app to record other phones (with a mating app), but they shouldn't be
> able to issue an alert.  Also, being open source does not guarantee
> non-malicious or untoward behavior.  That's not determined until an
> independent 3rd party review of the code.  There are lots of open source
> software available, and almost none of it ever gets audited.  A bunch of
> lawmakers are not programmers to audit the code.

Nobody has yet abused the app.

Do you think we are that dumb?


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72591

On 09/12/2020 06.51, VanguardLH wrote:
> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> 
>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>
>>> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make
>>> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could
>>> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery, even if
>>> the
>>
>> That's already recorded.  They're given a list of places to go to and
>> if they dont' go to one of them, they're supposed to tell the boss.  
> 
> No, what's recorded is where the package went, not who was at those
> transfer points (in the delivery route and at the final target).  The
> packages go to an address, not to a person.  Who knows who is picking up
> the package, especially since they're left at the door and picked up
> sometime later.  The contact tracking app would record the phone of
> anyone inside the home, including a babysitter, friends, or burglar, not
> necessarily the home owner.  Then, as the dasher roams an apartment
> complex, they would record everyone whose phone was on in the building.
> 
> Package tracking implements a whole different scheme than snaring every
> Bluetooth smartphone anywhere you travel.

covid tracing in EU means that each phone would record on the phone the
random generated IDs of the phones that were near for 15 minutes or
more, so none of the above would be registered. And the central server
is not notified of anything.

> 
>>> Think about it, though.  If you can issue an alert at-will without
>>> any authority validating the alert, it would easy for anyone to
>>> scare a bunch of phone users.
>>
>> I already get alerts on my pc that are phoney.   I rarely use** the
>> cell phone but I'm sure I'll get them there too eventually.    **I
>> usually take it when I go out.  Now I will always take it and I'll
>> turn it on too. 
> 
> Seems Slootweg uses this type of tracking app.  Maybe he knows if you
> test positive that then some legal authority is the only one that can
> issue the alert to every other Bluetooth smartphone you recorded.

Not even then.

When you are tested positive by the health authorities, they give you a
generated code. You write that code in your phone, and then your phone
finds everybody in its internal list of random IDs that were near for 15
minutes. That list is sent to the server (contains no phone number or
any identifiable data). The server publishes daily the list of "close
IDs". Every app downloads that list daily, and if your phone finds
itself in the list of random numbers, then the phone tells you and only you.

The EU apps are paranoid about privacy.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72598

Carlos E.R. wrote:
> The EU apps are paranoid about privacy.

Taking privacy serious isn't the same as being paranoid.

-p

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72602

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Seems Slootweg uses this type of tracking app.  Maybe he knows if you
>> test positive that then some legal authority is the only one that can
>> issue the alert to every other Bluetooth smartphone you recorded.
> 
> Not even then.
> 
> When you are tested positive by the health authorities, they give you a
> generated code. You write that code in your phone, and then your phone
> finds everybody in its internal list of random IDs that were near for 15
> minutes. That list is sent to the server (contains no phone number or
> any identifiable data). The server publishes daily the list of "close
> IDs". Every app downloads that list daily, and if your phone finds
> itself in the list of random numbers, then the phone tells you and only you.
> 
> The EU apps are paranoid about privacy.

Ah, thanks for that information.  The phone user is not in control of
sending the alert.  The user gets enabled to elect sending an alert, but
only after getting the key from some authority.  That should protect
against getting false alerts from malcontents.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72617

Am 09.12.20 um 17:43 schrieb VanguardLH:
> Ah, thanks for that information.  The phone user is not in control of
> sending the alert.  The user gets enabled to elect sending an alert, but
> only after getting the key from some authority.  That should protect
> against getting false alerts from malcontents.

No. Thats completely wrong.
That was already proven back in the early months of the apps.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72616

Am 09.12.20 um 13:34 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
> The EU apps are paranoid about privacy.

With this opinion you are alone in the EU. Even with these precautions
and the fact that the apps are open source are sufficient to lift the
penetration above 25% on average in Europe. These apps are aboslutely
useless purely from a mathematical standpoint.
Technically they were a fail anyway.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72576

In article <xg3gg0qv1mqv.dlg@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH>
wrote:

> 
>
> https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/7/22159842/apple-google-covid-contact-tracing-
> tech-california
> 
> See the part describing how the key is used via Bluetooth for who you 
> were near.  Well, within Bluetooth range which could be hundreds at 
> grocery stores and you walking through parking lots;

no it can't.

it sense people who are very close and for an extended period of time. 

that isn't going to happen at a grocery store unless someone works
there, in which case they really are exposed to hundreds of people.

for the random shopper, no.

> however, it will 
> also record any Bluetooth ranged drivers on the road, like when you're 
> sitting at a stoplight, but obviously you never had physical contact 
> with occupants in nearby cars. 

that would require an extremely long stoplight and being unusually
close to another vehicle, so no.

> Finding you tested positive and then 
> alerted everyone that came within Bluetooth range would likely scare a 
> lot of "contacts" you never made contact.

it doesn't alert everyone within bluetooth range. only those who are at
a potential risk of exposure.

> If the contacts recorded were only those in your contacts list, well, 
> that would exclude everyone you come near in the stores, parking lot, or 
> anywhere you travel.

it has absolutely nothing to do with who is in your contacts list.

> To me, it seems the pandemic is an excuse to test the contact tracing 
> feature; else, there would be little impetus for anyone to use such 
> apps.  Nowhere is it mentioned the contact tracking will expire old 
> contacts that were recorded more than a week ago.

two weeks, and it's definitely mentioned.

> There is also a stupid presumption that if you're not protected that you 
> surely will get infected.  It's the same argument used to scare users 
> into using anti-malware: they are exposed, so they will surely get 
> infected.  Not true.  Never has been. 

covid is *very* contagious, and although it's not as much as measles,
any potential exposure should be taken very seriously.

> I don't wear Kevlar, yet no one 
> has yet taken pot shots at me.  I also have to wonder if an alert from 
> this app would be sufficient evidence to get you first in line for the 
> low coverage of testing kits.  Pretty much anytime you're in public you 
> *could" get exposed, so, gee, you just must get tested after coming back 
> from the store.

it doesn't work that way.

> I'm not belittling the effect of Covid-19 (SARS2).  I couldn't believe 
> when I read about nurses getting laid off due to a hospital closing.  

stop reading conspiracy sites.

hospitals are overloaded, some of which are recruiting retired staff
and even allowing those who have tested positive to work.

<https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4455>
  Authorities in Belgium and the US state of North Dakota are allowing
  healthcare workers with covid-19 back to work, claiming that staff
  shortages necessitated the move.

> Why the hell would the state allow a hospital to close just because this 
> year they went into the red.  That's like saying the insurance companies 
> don't have to pay out on flood insurance because, gee, a flood happened.  
> The emergency rooms at packed and the doctor and nurses are currently at 
> peak capacity, and it's going to get worse.  But this contact tracing 
> used to record everyone you were near seems more geared to the gov't 
> wanting to track where is their populace than of having a reasonable 
> expection of alerting those who have REALLY been exposed, not just in 
> the area of someone that tested positive.  

hospitals aren't closing.

quite the opposite. they're repurposing convention centers, parking
garages and other facilities to handle the insane amount of patients.

> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make 
> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could 
> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery, even if the 
> resident waved at the driver but the door was never opened between them.  

what about them? they're not going to be included since the time is
much too short.

> What about deliveries that the resident picks up without sterilizing 
> before touching it?  The virus can live on shipping boxes for 24 hours.  
> Yet the driver drops off the box at your door, you get an e-mail 
> announcing the delivery within an hour, and go out to pickup the box 
> without wiping it with a disinfecting wipe.  There was no Bluetooth 
> connection, so neither the driver's or resident's tracking app records 
> the contact (through the shipping box).

it's not designed to detect every possible exposure. nothing can.

> I just don't many users adopting these tracking apps.  Many already 
> disable all the tracking features present in the apps and web browsers.  
> But because they're scared into using an app is really going to convince 
> them to use it?  If the tracking app comes bundled in a future version 
> of iOS or Android, enabled, and cannot be disabled, I suspect a lot more 
> users will decide to root their smartphones.  The next release of 
> Android (12) is due in Feb 2021, but that only effects Google (Pixel) 
> phones.  Everyone else has to wait until the phone maker gets around to 
> providing an OS update, and many don't update older Android versions 
> (I'm at 8.0 and don't expect LG will ever release an update for my old 
> LG V20 smartphone).

it doesn't track people and in fact is designed so that it *can't* be
used to track people, although that won't appease the tinfoil hat
crowd.

> Oh, and as far as needed cellular service, the technology uses Bluetooth 
> to record when you're near another Bluetooth user (who also has the 
> tracking app).  They would simply maintain a history on the phone.  Only 
> when you need to send an alert after getting testing positive would you 
> then need an Internet connection (cellular data or wifi) to alert all 
> those other phone owners.  Think about it, though.  If you can issue an 
> alert at-will without any authority validating the alert, it would easy 
> for anyone to scare a bunch of phone users.  Go walk around the stores, 
> parking lots, drive on the roads, or anywhere there are people about, 
> record them via Bluetooth, and later issue an alert.  The malcontent 
> would need to use a prepay phone paid with cash to avoid tracking the 
> scare alert back to them.

also wrong.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 4 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.mobile.android

csiph-web