Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.mobile.android > #72553 > unrolled thread

cellular needed for Covid tracking?

Back to article view | Back to comp.mobile.android

Contents

  cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-07 21:10 -0500
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-07 21:24 -0500
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-08 05:26 +0000
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-08 04:05 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 00:13 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-08 05:23 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 15:14 -0500
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-08 21:10 +0000
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-08 02:11 -0600
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-08 08:54 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-08 16:39 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? KenW                                        <ken1943@invalid.net> - 2020-12-08 13:01 -0700
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-08 21:11 +0100
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 15:20 -0500
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? KenW                                        <ken1943@invalid.net> - 2020-12-08 14:09 -0700
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-08 20:40 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 12:57 +1300
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-01-02 03:25 +0100
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2021-01-02 05:07 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 15:14 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-08 21:57 +0100
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2020-12-08 21:26 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 13:24 +0100
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2020-12-09 13:09 +0000
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2020-12-09 08:41 -0500
                  Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 15:37 +0100
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-09 14:55 +0000
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 23:36 +0100
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2020-12-09 18:21 -0500
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-09 23:32 +0000
                            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-12-09 17:07 -0800
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-10 06:41 -0700
                            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2020-12-10 09:29 -0500
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-09 23:25 +0000
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2020-12-09 15:00 +0000
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-09 09:08 -0700
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2020-12-09 19:45 +0000
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-09 12:56 -0700
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-10 09:29 +0000
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-10 06:39 -0700
                            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-11 06:14 -0500
                            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:06 +1300
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 11:10 -0600
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:13 +1300
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-10 01:42 -0500
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-10 01:53 -0500
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-10 06:48 -0700
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2020-12-10 06:54 -0700
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-10 21:17 +0100
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-11 10:12 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-08 23:51 -0600
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-09 06:00 -0500
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-09 11:16 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 10:40 -0600
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-09 11:56 -0500
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-09 20:43 +0000
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-09 21:45 +0000
                  Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-10 09:55 +0000
                    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-10 11:58 -0600
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-10 13:47 -0500
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-10 19:10 +0000
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-10 21:29 +0100
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-01-01 22:52 -0600
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2021-01-02 05:03 +0000
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2021-01-02 03:33 -0500
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-01-03 13:48 +0100
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-10 21:52 +0000
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:33 +1300
                      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:50 +1300
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2021-01-02 05:00 +0000
                        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-01-02 10:27 +0000
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2021-01-02 17:09 +0000
                          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? ~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 14:17 +1300
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 23:43 +0100
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-09 13:34 +0100
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> - 2020-12-09 16:06 +0100
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 10:43 -0600
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2020-12-09 22:39 +0100
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2020-12-09 22:37 +0100
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-08 15:44 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-08 21:17 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-08 17:11 -0500
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-09 02:06 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-09 08:13 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 10:45 -0600
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-09 16:55 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-09 11:30 -0600
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-09 11:56 -0500
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-09 20:19 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> - 2020-12-09 22:15 +0100
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-10 09:49 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-11 09:56 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-11 14:57 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-10 09:14 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-10 09:29 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2020-12-10 08:58 -0700
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-10 21:35 +0100
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-10 21:48 +0000
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-12-10 14:06 -0800
              Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2020-12-10 18:50 -0700
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-11 04:16 +0100
                  Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-11 03:27 +0000
                  Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-11 09:46 +0000
                Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking?  Arlen   Holder <arlen_holder@newmachines.com> - 2020-12-11 03:21 +0000
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-12-10 12:00 -0600
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-08 08:21 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-08 15:45 +0000
      Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2020-12-08 15:14 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-08 20:34 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-12-14 17:37 -0500
        Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-10 08:52 +0000
          Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2020-12-10 10:28 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-11 09:40 +0000
            Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-12-14 22:31 +0000
    Re: cellular needed for Covid tracking? Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2020-12-23 19:35 -0800

Page 5 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6  Next page →

#72580

[VanguardLH's comments snipped, because they're mostly implicitly echoed
in nospam's response.]

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> no it can't.
> 
> it sense people who are very close and for an extended period of time. 
> 
> that isn't going to happen at a grocery store unless someone works
> there, in which case they really are exposed to hundreds of people.
> 
> for the random shopper, no.
[...]
> that would require an extremely long stoplight and being unusually
> close to another vehicle, so no.
[...]
> it doesn't alert everyone within bluetooth range. only those who are at
> a potential risk of exposure.
[...]
> it has absolutely nothing to do with who is in your contacts list.
[...]
> two weeks, and it's definitely mentioned.
[...]
> what about them? they're not going to be included since the time is
> much too short.
[...]
> it's not designed to detect every possible exposure. nothing can.
[...]
> it doesn't track people and in fact is designed so that it *can't* be
> used to track people, although that won't appease the tinfoil hat
> crowd.
[...]

+<very_large_number>

  Thanks for your response, especially the last bit! :-)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72582

In article <rqou1l.k9s.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
<this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> [VanguardLH's comments snipped, because they're mostly implicitly echoed
> in nospam's response.]
> 
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
> > no it can't.
> > 
> > it sense people who are very close and for an extended period of time. 
> > 
> > that isn't going to happen at a grocery store unless someone works
> > there, in which case they really are exposed to hundreds of people.
> > 
> > for the random shopper, no.
> [...]
> > that would require an extremely long stoplight and being unusually
> > close to another vehicle, so no.
> [...]
> > it doesn't alert everyone within bluetooth range. only those who are at
> > a potential risk of exposure.
> [...]
> > it has absolutely nothing to do with who is in your contacts list.
> [...]
> > two weeks, and it's definitely mentioned.
> [...]
> > what about them? they're not going to be included since the time is
> > much too short.
> [...]
> > it's not designed to detect every possible exposure. nothing can.
> [...]
> > it doesn't track people and in fact is designed so that it *can't* be
> > used to track people, although that won't appease the tinfoil hat
> > crowd.
> [...]
> 
> +<very_large_number>
> 
>   Thanks for your response, especially the last bit! :-)

the apple/google system is based on work done at mit. 

note that one of the key people in its design is ron rivest, the 'r' in
rsa cryptography. 

<https://news.mit.edu/2020/bluetooth-covid-19-contact-tracing-0409>
  A team led by MIT researchers and including experts from many
  institutions is developing a system that augments ³manual² contact
  tracing by public health officials, while preserving the privacy of
  all individuals. The system relies on short-range Bluetooth signals
  emitted from people¹s smartphones. These signals represent random
  strings of numbers, likened to ³chirps² that other nearby smartphones
  can remember hearing.
...
  ³I keep track of what I¹ve broadcasted, and you keep track of what
  you¹ve heard, and this will allow us to tell if someone was in close
  proximity to an infected person,² says Ron Rivest, MIT Institute
  Professor and principal investigator of the project. ³But for these
  broadcasts, we¹re using cryptographic techniques to generate random,
  rotating numbers that are not just anonymous, but pseudonymous,
  constantly changing their ŒID,¹ and that can¹t be traced back to an
  individual.²
...
  ³We¹re not tracking location, not using GPS, not attaching your
  personal ID or phone number to any of these random numbers your
  phone is emitting,² says Daniel Weitzner, a principal research
  scientist in the MIT Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence
  Laboratory (CSAIL) and co-principal investigator of this effort.
  ³What we want is to enable everyone to participate in a shared
  process of seeing if you might have been in contact, without
  revealing, or forcing anyone to reveal, anything.²

main site:
<https://pact.mit.edu>
  PACT: Private Automated Contact Tracing

official spec:
<https://pact.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/The-PACT-protocol-speci
fication-2020.pdf>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72583

On Tue, 08 Dec 2020 17:11:56 -0500, nospam wrote:

> the apple/google system is based on work done at mit.

Remember the facts:
o The _best_ uptake (we know of) was Iceland; and they're not even close.

I perhaps know this virus far better than most of you ever will, IMHO.
o All of us also know of huge holes (and many more to come) in iOS & Android.

There's value in being able to hack into this data to malevolent actors.
o We're talking about something as weak & fragile as a common mobile phone

And, these apps have, themselves, astoundingly huge undeniable weaknesses
o At least in the Western World, they do.

IMHO... after assessing the facts... I posit (knowing the evidence)... 
o It doesn't matter how "good" the encryption in these surveillance apps.

The app itself, is a "pretend solution".
o Does a single person espousing the privacy sink covid trackers even know what a cytokine storm is?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/sAcXqAUyZ_U>

IMHO, mobile device surveillance, in the "Western World", is a "pretend
solution" to a rather difficult problem set, where, in the Western World,
it has far worse ramifications than does the little it's possible to do.
-- 
One bug.... and the entire house of cards built by MARKETING falls down.
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/7Mc1sX9XISA> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72587

VanguardLH wrote:

> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make
> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could
> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery

If a delivery driver stopped at each home for 15-20 minutes (I 
understand that's the timescale for the apps to record a contact) I 
think they'd soon get fired ...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72603

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
> 
>> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make
>> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could
>> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery
> 
> If a delivery driver stopped at each home for 15-20 minutes (I 
> understand that's the timescale for the apps to record a contact) I 
> think they'd soon get fired ...

That information was not dispensed here until after I proposed that
scenario.  Some posters have noted that this is all documented
somewhere.  Where?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72604

VanguardLH wrote:

> Some posters have noted that this is all documented
> somewhere.  Where?

<https://www.google.com/covid19/exposurenotifications/>
<https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing>

plus individual country health services have info for their apps built 
on top.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72609

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
> 
>> Some posters have noted that this is all documented
>> somewhere.  Where?
> 
> <https://www.google.com/covid19/exposurenotifications/>
> <https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing>
> 
> plus individual country health services have info for their apps built 
> on top.

Thanks.  I've bookmarked them to read a bit later when not so busy.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72606

In article <1oxpq700f6vb7$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH>
wrote:

> >> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make
> >> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could
> >> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery
> > 
> > If a delivery driver stopped at each home for 15-20 minutes (I 
> > understand that's the timescale for the apps to record a contact) I 
> > think they'd soon get fired ...
> 
> That information was not dispensed here until after I proposed that
> scenario.  Some posters have noted that this is all documented
> somewhere.  Where?

apple, google and mit, along with numerous articles in various tech web
sites (e.g., arstechnica) about it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72613

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> 
> > VanguardLH wrote:
> > 
> >> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make
> >> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could
> >> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery
> > 
> > If a delivery driver stopped at each home for 15-20 minutes (I 
> > understand that's the timescale for the apps to record a contact) I 
> > think they'd soon get fired ...
> 
> That information was not dispensed here until after I proposed that
> scenario.  Some posters have noted that this is all documented
> somewhere.  Where?

  AFAIK, the 15 minute exposure limit was already in common use before
there were any contact tracing apps.

  It's probably a WHO guideline. But you probably weren't to know, as
You Guys stepped out of it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72615

Frank Slootweg wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote:
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make
>>>> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could
>>>> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery
>>>
>>> If a delivery driver stopped at each home for 15-20 minutes (I 
>>> understand that's the timescale for the apps to record a contact) I 
>>> think they'd soon get fired ...
>>
>> That information was not dispensed here until after I proposed that
>> scenario.  Some posters have noted that this is all documented
>> somewhere.  Where?
> 
>   AFAIK, the 15 minute exposure limit was already in common use before
> there were any contact tracing apps.
> 
>   It's probably a WHO guideline. But you probably weren't to know, as
> You Guys stepped out of it.

But their CDC still seems to be functioning in a scientifically sound
manner. And it gives and interesting definition for "close contact":
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/contact-tracing/contact-tracing-plan/appendix.html#contact
"15 cumulative minutes of exposure"
That's quite different from 15 consecutive minutes of exposure, which
is what the Covid tracking apps measure.

BTW, I don't know how the situation in other countries is, but in NL
the national statistics bureau (CBS) reported that of the population
over 75 years old 48% (!) didn't have a smartphone. So the category
(or one of the categories) most at risk can't even install a covid
tracking app.

-p

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72631

Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > VanguardLH wrote:
> >> Andy Burns wrote:
> >>> VanguardLH wrote:
> >>>> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make
> >>>> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could
> >>>> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery
> >>>
> >>> If a delivery driver stopped at each home for 15-20 minutes (I 
> >>> understand that's the timescale for the apps to record a contact) I 
> >>> think they'd soon get fired ...
> >>
> >> That information was not dispensed here until after I proposed that
> >> scenario.  Some posters have noted that this is all documented
> >> somewhere.  Where?
> > 
> >   AFAIK, the 15 minute exposure limit was already in common use before
> > there were any contact tracing apps.
> > 
> >   It's probably a WHO guideline. But you probably weren't to know, as
> > You Guys stepped out of it.
> 
> But their CDC still seems to be functioning in a scientifically sound
> manner.

  Yes, I know. It was a sarcastic sting in the face of a continued
display of ignorance (as in: lack of knowledge).

>	  And it gives and interesting definition for "close contact":
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/contact-tracing/contact-tracing-plan/appendix.html#contact
> "15 cumulative minutes of exposure"
> That's quite different from 15 consecutive minutes of exposure, which
> is what the Covid tracking apps measure.

  Thanks for that. Yes, cumulative makes much more sense.

> BTW, I don't know how the situation in other countries is, but in NL
> the national statistics bureau (CBS) reported that of the population
> over 75 years old 48% (!) didn't have a smartphone. So the category
> (or one of the categories) most at risk can't even install a covid
> tracking app.

  And of those older people who do have a smartphone, a large proportion
may be too old (older than Android 6) to be able to install/use the apps.

  I happened to need to upgrade my phone for other reasons, so I (and
SWMBO) have  a nice 'shiny' compatible one! :-)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72659

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> 
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>> 
>>> How about every delivery driver? USPS, Fedex, UPS, and DoorDash make
>>> deliveries to homes, so their Bluetooth contact tracing app could
>>> potentially record everyone to whom they make a delivery
>> 
>> If a delivery driver stopped at each home for 15-20 minutes (I 
>> understand that's the timescale for the apps to record a contact) I 
>> think they'd soon get fired ...
> 
> That information was not dispensed here until after I proposed that
> scenario.  Some posters have noted that this is all documented
> somewhere.  Where? 

It was all over the media at time. If you chose not to pay attention that's
your failing. This one is from July
https://www.wired.com/story/covid-19-contact-tracing-apple-google/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72663

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:56:25 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> It was all over the media at time.

It was all over this newsgroup also... we must have a score of threads, one each for each contact surveillance app (until we got bored as they abound).

Here's just a sample... 
o Vulnerability in Qatar's MANDATORY COVID-19 app EHTERAZ put its users' private information at risk 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/nvM0-_EiD5s> 
o India's MANDATORY GPS-based Covid tracking app: Aarogya Setu: The story of a failure 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/SrKs0F8V1hI> 
o Alberta's COVID-19 tracking app ABTraceTogether requires some users to keep devices always unlocked with the app always active in the foreground 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PpSf61Jgasg> 
o Apparently, "Phase II" Apple/Google bluetooth API Covid tracking will be a likely mandatory component of both Android & OS (not a separate app!) 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/G6w72XSgaXE> 
o Apple's contact tracing API now available in Canada. 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/sX-AJCjrZNo> 
o Apple and Google Launch Exposure Notifications Express That Enables Contact Tracing Without Needing an App 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/p9RsZ-PXMqw> 
o Australia COVIDSafe Bug Still Not Fixed: Government Digital Transformation Agency (DTA) Insists Everything is Fine 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/J9UEVzV2NQE> 
o Bahrain "BeAware", Kuwait "Schlonik" & Norway "Smittestopp" contact tracing surveillance apps among most dangerous - mandatory live tracking via GPS in real time 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/QOQt51MBRYE> 
o BBC: Coronavirus: France set to roll out contact-tracing app before UK 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/xslI6dT9RgM> 
o Coronavirus: First Google/Apple-based contact-tracing app launched 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/uV-dW7KL0U8> 
o Does a single person espousing the privacy sink covid trackers even know what a cytokine storm is? 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/sAcXqAUyZ_U> 
o France rolls out its StopCovid Covid-19 surveillance & tracking app today on iOS and Android 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ZFDFdteB774> 
o Google promised privacy with coronavirus mass surveillance but governments says Google still can collect users' location data 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/k0TkX_GFgAQ> 
o Is the New Zealand contact tracing app "NZ COVID Tracer" even bluetooth yet? 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/zEZ3cWh3Sdw> 
o Italy has released its Immuni contact tracing surveillance app for pilot trials 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/gDIdxGJdjhI> 
o Japan contact tracing app "COCOA" launches this week using Microsoft to build it 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/LqTp__RVzAI> 
o Jordan covid tracking app AMAN which saves user location data & reports exposure data to others via the app itself... is awaiting approval by Apple 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/t0Ap6DtjVKA> 
o NHS UK-created NHSX contact tracing app ditches centralised surveillance after DHSC Isle of Wight testing 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/Be_hJD5afBI> 
o The best that the Singapore TraceTogether mass surveillance app can do is get 4% of your contacts under PERFECT circumstances 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/Zd8iLLPsJHk> 
o US states of South Dakota & North Dakota "Care19" covid tracking app on Google Play & the Apple iOS App Store records about half of where you've been 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/5hn0khNRy_g> 
o Virginia releases COVIDWISE Exposure Notification App [notice they carefully avoid the terms contact tracing] 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/4NIpT6tusJ0> 
o Vulnerability in Qatar's MANDATORY COVID-19 app EHTERAZ put its users' private information at risk 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/q1mBO_1ILKQ> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72628

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> 
>> Regarding Covid-19 contact apps, is a cellular contract necessary? 
>> 
>> 
>> Is there another unique number unrelated to other numbers used to
>> identify cell phones with covid monitoring?
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/7/22159842/apple-google-covid-contact-tracing-tech-california
> 
> See the part describing how the key is used via Bluetooth for who you 
> were near.  Well, within Bluetooth range which could be hundreds at 
> grocery stores and you walking through parking lots; however, it will 
> also record any Bluetooth ranged drivers on the road, like when you're 
> sitting at a stoplight, but obviously you never had physical contact 
> with occupants in nearby cars.  Finding you tested positive and then 
> alerted everyone that came within Bluetooth range would likely scare a 
> lot of "contacts" you never made contact.

That's not how it works. It only records contacts that you're near to for
10 minutes, transient contracts are ignored. Understandably for the reasons
you make. 

> If the contacts recorded were only those in your contacts list, well, 
> that would exclude everyone you come near in the stores, parking lot, or 
> anywhere you travel.

And be a totally useless system for identifying unknown contacts which is
the WHOLE POINT. 

> To me, it seems the pandemic is an excuse to test the contact tracing 
> feature; else, there would be little impetus for anyone to use such 
> apps.  Nowhere is it mentioned the contact tracking will expire old 
> contacts that were recorded more than a week ago.
> 
> There is also a stupid presumption that if you're not protected that you 
> surely will get infected.  

Said no-one ever. 

> I'm not belittling the effect of Covid-19 (SARS2).  I couldn't believe 
> when I read about nurses getting laid off due to a hospital closing.  

Welcome to a capitalist health system. What else would you expect? Social
care? LOL. 

> Why the hell would the state allow a hospital to close just because this 
> year they went into the red.  That's like saying the insurance companies 
> don't have to pay out on flood insurance because, gee, a flood happened.  

That also happens. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50391494

> The emergency rooms at packed and the doctor and nurses are currently at 
> peak capacity, and it's going to get worse.  But this contact tracing 
> used to record everyone you were near seems more geared to the gov't 
> wanting to track where is their populace than of having a reasonable 
> expection of alerting those who have REALLY been exposed, not just in 
> the area of someone that tested positive.  

In a properly run system both would happen. It's not either/or. 

> 
> I just don't many users adopting these tracking apps.  Many already 
> disable all the tracking features present in the apps and web browsers.  
> But because they're scared into using an app is really going to convince 
> them to use it?  If the tracking app comes bundled in a future version 
> of iOS or Android, enabled, and cannot be disabled, I suspect a lot more 
> users will decide to root their smartphones.  

That's why it's optional. It requires buy-in from the users and can't be
enforced unless you're in China. 

> Think about it, though.  If you can issue an 
> alert at-will without any authority validating the alert, it would easy 
> for anyone to scare a bunch of phone users.  Go walk around the stores, 
> parking lots, drive on the roads, or anywhere there are people about, 
> record them via Bluetooth, and later issue an alert.  

The user can't issue an alert, that'd be stupid obviously. Why are you
spouting such rubbish on something you clearly don't understand?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72629

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 09:14:48 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> That's why it's optional. It requires buy-in from the users and can't be
> enforced unless you're in China.

It would be interesting to know where it's mandatory, as it's also
mandatory in Qatar (AFAIK) punishable by law if you don't use it
and carry your phone with you at all times (AFAIK).

We could check the details if others are interested... 

o Vulnerability in Qatar's MANDATORY COVID-19 app EHTERAZ put its users' private information at risk 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/q1mBO_1ILKQ>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72639

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 09:14:48 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
> 
>> That's why it's optional. It requires buy-in from the users and 
>> can't be enforced unless you're in China.
> 
> It would be interesting to know where it's mandatory, as it's also 
> mandatory in Qatar (AFAIK) punishable by law if you don't use it and 
> carry your phone with you at all times (AFAIK).

Perhaps it will also be mandatory soon in the country of Google. I
recently noticed in my phone's settings (settings>google) a line that
says: "COVID-19 Exposure Notifications" with a red switch that is
currently off. I never downloaded any Covid-19 app and this setting
wasn't there when I bought the phone. Makes me wonder when the switch
may be covertly switched on.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72647

On 10/12/2020 16.58, AJL wrote:
> Arlen Holder wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 09:14:48 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>
>>> That's why it's optional. It requires buy-in from the users and can't
>>> be enforced unless you're in China.
>>
>> It would be interesting to know where it's mandatory, as it's also
>> mandatory in Qatar (AFAIK) punishable by law if you don't use it and
>> carry your phone with you at all times (AFAIK).
> 
> Perhaps it will also be mandatory soon in the country of Google. I
> recently noticed in my phone's settings (settings>google) a line that
> says: "COVID-19 Exposure Notifications" with a red switch that is
> currently off. I never downloaded any Covid-19 app and this setting
> wasn't there when I bought the phone. Makes me wonder when the switch
> may be covertly switched on.

No.

The switch is part of the Google API, and does not work without you
installing a suitable app. Everybody with a suitable smartphone got the
update that brought that configuration switch, app or no app.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72649

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:35:26 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> The switch is part of the Google API, and does not work without you
> installing a suitable app. Everybody with a suitable smartphone got the
> update that brought that configuration switch, app or no app.


o Apparently, "Phase II" Apple/Google bluetooth API Covid tracking will be a likely mandatory component of both Android & OS (not a separate app!) 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/WhLibSlzaKg>

o Apple and Google Launch Exposure Notifications Express That Enables Contact Tracing Without Needing an App 
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/DgxDqkiRgEE> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72651

On 2020-12-10 1:48 p.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 21:35:26 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> 
>> The switch is part of the Google API, and does not work without you
>> installing a suitable app. Everybody with a suitable smartphone got the
>> update that brought that configuration switch, app or no app.
> 
> 
> o Apparently, "Phase II" Apple/Google bluetooth API Covid tracking will be a likely mandatory component of both Android & OS (not a separate app!)
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/WhLibSlzaKg>
> 
> o Apple and Google Launch Exposure Notifications Express That Enables Contact Tracing Without Needing an App
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/DgxDqkiRgEE>
> 

Sorry. You need to show original sources to support your outlandish claims.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#72652

Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 10/12/2020 16.58, AJL wrote:
>> Arlen Holder wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 09:14:48 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's why it's optional. It requires buy-in from the users and can't
>>>> be enforced unless you're in China.
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to know where it's mandatory, as it's also
>>> mandatory in Qatar (AFAIK) punishable by law if you don't use it and
>>> carry your phone with you at all times (AFAIK).
>>
>> Perhaps it will also be mandatory soon in the country of Google. I
>> recently noticed in my phone's settings (settings>google) a line that
>> says: "COVID-19 Exposure Notifications" with a red switch that is
>> currently off. I never downloaded any Covid-19 app and this setting
>> wasn't there when I bought the phone. Makes me wonder when the switch
>> may be covertly switched on.
> 
> No.
> 
> The switch is part of the Google API, and does not work without you
> installing a suitable app. Everybody with a suitable smartphone got the
> update that brought that configuration switch, app or no app.

You are correct. I was scared to push the button before in case it would 
out me, but with your encouragement I pushed it and it said: download 
the app. My apologies to Google.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 5 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.mobile.android

csiph-web