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OT: Open letter to the Linux World

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  OT: Open letter to the Linux World Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-08-13 00:35 +0000
    Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> - 2014-08-13 15:31 +0000
      Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2014-08-14 16:55 +0000
      Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2014-08-14 15:38 -0300
      Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-08-19 14:30 +0000
        Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-08-19 15:38 +0000
    Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Randy Westlund <Vorzakir@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-14 20:30 +0000
    Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-08-14 16:42 -0400
      Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-08-14 21:57 +0100
      Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2014-08-15 10:11 +0300
        Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> - 2014-08-15 12:26 +0000
          Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-08-15 10:06 -0400
            Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> - 2014-08-15 14:48 +0000
              Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-08-15 11:49 -0400
                Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> - 2014-08-15 17:47 +0000
                Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-08-15 18:54 +0000
                  Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-08-15 16:05 -0400
                    Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-08-15 21:22 +0000
                    Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-08-15 21:26 +0000
        Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-08-15 15:51 +0000
          Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2014-08-20 19:40 +0300
            Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-08-20 22:07 +0000
            Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World "D.D." <xyzzy@inbox.com> - 2014-08-21 02:40 -0700
      Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2014-08-15 13:25 +0100
      Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2014-08-15 20:11 +0000
        Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-08-15 21:32 +0000
      Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2014-08-16 14:25 +0300

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#4296 — OT: Open letter to the Linux World

http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html

  "What is intelligence? Not exactly the spook kind, but rather what is
   the definition of intelligence in humans? This is pretty good:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence#Definitions"

  "By most accounts, the self-appointed and arguably too influential
   creators and thinkers of the day around the 'One Linux' idea fit the
   definition of intelligent people - at least in the technical realm."

   ...

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#4297

2014-08-13, Rich wrote:
> http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html

Word. Cheers for the link. Very good read. Agreed with everything.

-- 
:q!

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#4370

On 2014-08-13, Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> wrote:
> 2014-08-13, Rich wrote:
>> http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
>
> Word. Cheers for the link. Very good read. Agreed with everything.
>

+1

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#4371

Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:

> 2014-08-13, Rich wrote:
>
>> http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
> 
> Word. Cheers for the link. Very good read. Agreed with everything.


Same. Single-point-of-failure attack surface.

I'm having a ovgpu of a time getting a USB touchpad working in
X/Slackware on a recent laptop [1] but all that notwithstanding I
don't need no steenking impenetrable overlord daemon.



[1] Offers of help welcome, remove bells and whistles for valid email.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada
mspenbellscer@tallwhistlesships.ca

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#4484

On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 15:31:40 +0000 (UTC)
Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> wrote:

> 2014-08-13, Rich wrote:
> > http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
> 
> Word. Cheers for the link. Very good read. Agreed with everything.

The criticism and discussion of systemd continued unabated, and the
language is heating up.  Ignore the incendiary title.  It's a decent
article:

http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/systemd-harbinger-of-the-linux-apocalypse-248436?page=0,1

Discussion going on at SoylentNews here:
http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/08/19/0841221

I hadn't realized how many other systems systemd was beginning to,
hoping to, or intending to also compromise.  Now I dislike it.  Thank
God for FreeBSD refusing to implement these kind of system
architectures.


-- 

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#4488

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 15:31:40 +0000 (UTC)
> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> wrote:

> > 2014-08-13, Rich wrote:
> > > http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
> > 
> > Word. Cheers for the link. Very good read. Agreed with everything.

> The criticism and discussion of systemd continued unabated, and the
> language is heating up.  Ignore the incendiary title.  It's a decent
> article:

Single page link for those who prefer to read the article whole:
http://www.infoworld.com/print/248436

> http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/systemd-harbinger-of-the-linux-apocalypse-248436?page=0,1

> Discussion going on at SoylentNews here:
> http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/08/19/0841221

> I hadn't realized how many other systems systemd was beginning to,
> hoping to, or intending to also compromise.  Now I dislike it.  Thank
> God for FreeBSD refusing to implement these kind of system
> architectures.


> -- 

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#4372

On 2014-08-13, Rich wrote:
> http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
>
>   "What is intelligence? Not exactly the spook kind, but rather what is
>    the definition of intelligence in humans? This is pretty good:
>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence#Definitions"
>
>   "By most accounts, the self-appointed and arguably too influential
>    creators and thinkers of the day around the 'One Linux' idea fit the
>    definition of intelligent people - at least in the technical realm."
>
>    ...
>

Excellent rant, thanks for posting.

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#4373

Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
>
>   "What is intelligence? Not exactly the spook kind, but rather what is
>    the definition of intelligence in humans? This is pretty good:
>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence#Definitions"
>
>   "By most accounts, the self-appointed and arguably too influential
>    creators and thinkers of the day around the 'One Linux' idea fit the
>    definition of intelligent people - at least in the technical realm."

It's rant.

The guy complains about the complexity of systemd but does
not propose a simpler solution to the problems systemd solves.
He also does not make a case that the problems systemd solves
should not be solved.

The old init scripts had to be executed serially at start up
and shutdown but did nothing for those scripts monitoring themselves
at run time.  That was up to each service.

I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
can do better.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#4374

In article <lsj6v1$ngq$1@dont-email.me>, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
wrote:

> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
> 
> > http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
> >
> >   "What is intelligence? Not exactly the spook kind, but rather what is
> >    the definition of intelligence in humans? This is pretty good:
> >    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence#Definitions"
> >
> >   "By most accounts, the self-appointed and arguably too influential
> >    creators and thinkers of the day around the 'One Linux' idea fit the
> >    definition of intelligent people - at least in the technical realm."
> 
> It's rant.
> 
> The guy complains about the complexity of systemd but does
> not propose a simpler solution to the problems systemd solves.
> He also does not make a case that the problems systemd solves
> should not be solved.

He also can't spell (or possibly proofread) and suffers from Grocer's
apo'strophe 'syndrome.

-- 
"If you're not able to ask questions and deal with the answers without feeling 
that someone has called your intelligence or competence into question, don't 
ask questions on Usenet where the answers won't be carefully tailored to avoid
tripping your hair-trigger insecurities."                  - D M Procida, UCSM

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#4383

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
> can do better.

Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based Sabayon
distro boots wicked fast with systemd. Granted, that's only after I
built a custom kernel and threw out the bloated initrd they use by
default but still.

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#4384

2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
>> can do better.

Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at least)
and opinions must be freely shared as well.

> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based Sabayon
> distro boots wicked fast with systemd. 

You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed. That's
just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of GNU/Linux
users.

> Granted, that's only after I built a custom kernel and threw out the
> bloated initrd they use by default but still.

Well, that's a given.

-- 
:q!

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#4387

Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:

> 2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>>
>>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
>>> can do better.
>
> Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at least)
> and opinions must be freely shared as well.
>
>> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based Sabayon
>> distro boots wicked fast with systemd. 
>
> You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed. That's
> just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of GNU/Linux
> users.

systemd is not all about boot speed.
If it was, a simple make file to run the init scripts would
have been a way to go.

systemd manages services as they run.  If something dies or something
gets plugged in, systemd knows what to do.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#4388

2014-08-15, Dan Espen wrote:
> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
>
>> 2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
>>>> can do better.
>>
>> Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at least)
>> and opinions must be freely shared as well.
>>
>>> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based Sabayon
>>> distro boots wicked fast with systemd. 
>>
>> You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed. That's
>> just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of GNU/Linux
>> users.
>
> systemd is not all about boot speed.

True. It's also about not adhering to *nix philosophy, "modernizing"
Linux [sic], bloating/overcomplicating init process, taking steps
towards One Linux [sic], getting rid of plain text logging, solving
"problems" 99.9% of users will never encounter and so on, ad nauseam.

-- 
:q!

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#4391

Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:

> 2014-08-15, Dan Espen wrote:
>> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
>>
>>> 2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
>>>>> can do better.
>>>
>>> Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at least)
>>> and opinions must be freely shared as well.
>>>
>>>> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based Sabayon
>>>> distro boots wicked fast with systemd. 
>>>
>>> You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed. That's
>>> just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of GNU/Linux
>>> users.
>>
>> systemd is not all about boot speed.
>
> True. It's also about not adhering to *nix philosophy, "modernizing"
> Linux [sic], bloating/overcomplicating init process, taking steps
> towards One Linux [sic], getting rid of plain text logging, solving
> "problems" 99.9% of users will never encounter and so on, ad nauseam.

Show how you would do the equivalent of

journalctl -p 2

with syslog.

Some of your points are valid, but not constructive.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#4394

2014-08-15, Dan Espen wrote:
> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
>
>> 2014-08-15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
>>>
>>>> 2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>>>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
>>>>>> can do better.
>>>>
>>>> Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at least)
>>>> and opinions must be freely shared as well.
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based Sabayon
>>>>> distro boots wicked fast with systemd. 
>>>>
>>>> You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed. That's
>>>> just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of GNU/Linux
>>>> users.
>>>
>>> systemd is not all about boot speed.
>>
>> True. It's also about not adhering to *nix philosophy, "modernizing"
>> Linux [sic], bloating/overcomplicating init process, taking steps
>> towards One Linux [sic], getting rid of plain text logging, solving
>> "problems" 99.9% of users will never encounter and so on, ad nauseam.
>
> Show how you would do the equivalent of
>
> journalctl -p 2
>
> with syslog.

In this context I'd guess it's undoable as such.

> Some of your points are valid, but not constructive.

I can't see any way I could be more constructive when it comes to
systemd (or rather trying to avoid it).

-- 
:q!

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#4395

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:

> > 2014-08-15, Dan Espen wrote:
> >> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
> >>
> >>> 2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
> >>>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
> >>>>> can do better.
> >>>
> >>> Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at
> >>> least) and opinions must be freely shared as well.
> >>>
> >>>> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based
> >>>> Sabayon distro boots wicked fast with systemd.
> >>>
> >>> You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed.
> >>> That's just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of
> >>> GNU/Linux users.
> >>
> >> systemd is not all about boot speed.
> >
> > True. It's also about not adhering to *nix philosophy,
> > "modernizing" Linux [sic], bloating/overcomplicating init process,
> > taking steps towards One Linux [sic], getting rid of plain text
> > logging, solving "problems" 99.9% of users will never encounter and
> > so on, ad nauseam.

> Show how you would do the equivalent of

> journalctl -p 2

> with syslog.

And just what does that command do (for the benefit of those of us who
have no interest what-so-ever in using systemd).

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#4396

Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
>
>> > 2014-08-15, Dan Espen wrote:
>> >> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
>> >>
>> >>> 2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> >>>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
>> >>>>> can do better.
>> >>>
>> >>> Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at
>> >>> least) and opinions must be freely shared as well.
>> >>>
>> >>>> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based
>> >>>> Sabayon distro boots wicked fast with systemd.
>> >>>
>> >>> You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed.
>> >>> That's just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of
>> >>> GNU/Linux users.
>> >>
>> >> systemd is not all about boot speed.
>> >
>> > True. It's also about not adhering to *nix philosophy,
>> > "modernizing" Linux [sic], bloating/overcomplicating init process,
>> > taking steps towards One Linux [sic], getting rid of plain text
>> > logging, solving "problems" 99.9% of users will never encounter and
>> > so on, ad nauseam.
>
>> Show how you would do the equivalent of
>
>> journalctl -p 2
>
>> with syslog.
>
> And just what does that command do (for the benefit of those of us who
> have no interest what-so-ever in using systemd).

Sorry, simple matter of reading the man page.
Priority 2 is errors and worse.

Try searching syslog for errors.
Not so easy since there's no discipline put into the message
format.  Journalctl breaks out the fields so priority is
an identifiable entity.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#4399

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> > Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
> >
> >> > 2014-08-15, Dan Espen wrote:
> >> >> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >>> 2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
> >> >>>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
> >> >>>>> can do better.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at
> >> >>> least) and opinions must be freely shared as well.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based
> >> >>>> Sabayon distro boots wicked fast with systemd.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed.
> >> >>> That's just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of
> >> >>> GNU/Linux users.
> >> >>
> >> >> systemd is not all about boot speed.
> >> >
> >> > True. It's also about not adhering to *nix philosophy,
> >> > "modernizing" Linux [sic], bloating/overcomplicating init process,
> >> > taking steps towards One Linux [sic], getting rid of plain text
> >> > logging, solving "problems" 99.9% of users will never encounter and
> >> > so on, ad nauseam.
> >
> >> Show how you would do the equivalent of
> >
> >> journalctl -p 2
> >
> >> with syslog.
> >
> > And just what does that command do (for the benefit of those of us who
> > have no interest what-so-ever in using systemd).

> Sorry, simple matter of reading the man page.
> Priority 2 is errors and worse.

> Try searching syslog for errors.
> Not so easy since there's no discipline put into the message
> format.  Journalctl breaks out the fields so priority is
> an identifiable entity.

Yes, but "reading the man page" is only possible if I have systemd
installed somewhere.  Given that I "have no interest what-so-ever in
using systemd" (see above) that means I do not have systemd installed. 
Therefore I do not have the man pages installed.

Yes, I could google for them, but that feels like going to too much
effort for something that I "have no interest what-so-ever in using".

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#4400

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> > Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
> >
> >> > 2014-08-15, Dan Espen wrote:
> >> >> Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >>> 2014-08-15, Anssi Saari wrote:
> >> >>>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I
> >> >>>>> can do better.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hey, you just ranted about it. BTW, it's free software (still, at
> >> >>> least) and opinions must be freely shared as well.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based
> >> >>>> Sabayon distro boots wicked fast with systemd.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> You know, lot of users don't give a flying **** about boot speed.
> >> >>> That's just a gimmick to win over the young and the 1337 of
> >> >>> GNU/Linux users.
> >> >>
> >> >> systemd is not all about boot speed.
> >> >
> >> > True. It's also about not adhering to *nix philosophy,
> >> > "modernizing" Linux [sic], bloating/overcomplicating init process,
> >> > taking steps towards One Linux [sic], getting rid of plain text
> >> > logging, solving "problems" 99.9% of users will never encounter and
> >> > so on, ad nauseam.
> >
> >> Show how you would do the equivalent of
> >
> >> journalctl -p 2
> >
> >> with syslog.
> >
> > And just what does that command do (for the benefit of those of us who
> > have no interest what-so-ever in using systemd).

> Sorry, simple matter of reading the man page.
> Priority 2 is errors and worse.

> Try searching syslog for errors.
> Not so easy since there's no discipline put into the message
> format.  Journalctl breaks out the fields so priority is
> an identifiable entity.

Ok, sorry for the previous followup, didn't read everything fully
before hitting "f".

The first thing that comes to mind to do something similar with syslog
would be to have configured one's syslog.conf to route each level to
its own individual, separate, file.  So errors and worse could be "cat
/var/log/syslog/{error,...}.

Granted, not the same, but a similar separation.  And yes, doing such
requires that one know how to edit syslog.conf vs. simply add a desired
switch to a command.

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#4392

Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> wrote:
> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> > I don't like complexity but I won't rant about it unless I can do
> > better.

> Yeah. I have to say also that my laptop running the Gentoo-based
> Sabayon distro boots wicked fast with systemd. Granted, that's only
> after I built a custom kernel and threw out the bloated initrd they
> use by default but still.

Which is fine, except that you should only need to boot when doing a
kernel upgrade.  Anytime in between you should be sleeping/hibernating,
in which case "time to boot" is not an issue.

systemd's claim to fame of wiked fast boot times is optimizing for a
windows problem (the need to reboot to make any change to much of
anything).

If you almost never reboot, then speed of boot is less important. 
Instead they should be focusing on making sleep/hibernate reliable
enough to never need to reboot.

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