Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.misc > #4731 > unrolled thread

boycott systemd

Back to article view | Back to comp.misc

Contents

  boycott systemd Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-07 06:01 +0000
    Re: boycott systemd Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-09-07 09:26 +0300
    Re: boycott systemd Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-09-07 02:46 -0400
      Re: boycott systemd Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-07 06:52 +0000
        Re: boycott systemd RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-09-07 10:42 +0000
          Re: boycott systemd Randy Westlund <Vorzakir@invalid.invalid> - 2014-09-07 14:26 +0000
            Re: boycott systemd RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-09-07 14:52 +0000
              Re: boycott systemd Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-07 19:47 +0000
                Re: boycott systemd Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-09-08 04:56 +0100
                  Re: boycott systemd Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-09-08 08:53 +0200
                    Re: boycott systemd Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-08 11:02 +0000
                      Re: boycott systemd Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-09-08 13:17 +0200
                        Re: boycott systemd RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-09-09 07:54 +0000
                          Re: boycott systemd Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-09-09 16:39 +0000
                            Re: boycott systemd Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-09-09 19:03 +0200
              Re: boycott systemd Ben Collver <bencollver@devio.us> - 2014-09-08 01:41 +0000
          Re: boycott systemd "D.D." <xyzzy@inbox.com> - 2014-09-07 21:59 -0700

#4731 — boycott systemd

http://boycottsystemd.org/

   systemd is a replacement for the sysvinit daemon used in GNU/Linux and
   Unix systems, originally authored by Lennart Poettering of Red Hat. It
   represents a monumental increase in complexity, an abhorrent and violent
   slap in the face to the Unix philosophy, and its inherent domineering
   and viral nature turns it into something akin to a "second kernel" that
   is spreading all across the Linux ecosystem.

   This site aims to serve as a rundown and a wake-up call to take a stand
   against the widespread proliferation of systemd, to detail why it is
   harmful, and to persuade users to reject its use.

   ...

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#4732

Rich <rich@example.invalid>:

>    systemd {...] represents a monumental increase in complexity, an
>    abhorrent and violent slap in the face to the Unix philosophy, and
>    its inherent domineering and viral nature turns it into something
>    akin to a "second kernel" that is spreading all across the Linux
>    ecosystem.

I don't know enough to feel that strongly, but I am suspicious of
systemd. I have similar objections against Network Manager and SELinux.


Marko

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4733

Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> http://boycottsystemd.org/
>
>    This site aims to serve as a rundown and a wake-up call to take a stand
>    against the widespread proliferation of systemd, to detail why it is
>    harmful, and to persuade users to reject its use.

Your site?

I think the words on the tee shirt pretty much sum it up.

-- 
Dan Espen

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4734

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> > http://boycottsystemd.org/
> >
> >    This site aims to serve as a rundown and a wake-up call to take a stand
> >    against the widespread proliferation of systemd, to detail why it is
> >    harmful, and to persuade users to reject its use.

> Your site?

> I think the words on the tee shirt pretty much sum it up.

Nope, I don't get to take credit for the site.  The site belongs to
someone else.  I only get credit for posting a reference to it here.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4736

On 2014-09-07, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
>
>> > http://boycottsystemd.org/
>> >
>> >    This site aims to serve as a rundown and a wake-up call to take
>> >    a stand against the widespread proliferation of systemd, to
>> >    detail why it is harmful, and to persuade users to reject its
>> >    use.
>
>> Your site?
>
>> I think the words on the tee shirt pretty much sum it up.
>
> Nope, I don't get to take credit for the site.  The site belongs to
> someone else.  I only get credit for posting a reference to it here.
>

I assume the guy with the red t-shirt is Poettering himself?  And
they've probably photoshopped "OpenSource Tea Party" onto the image?  I
wonder if Europeans have the same understanding of the American Tea
Party as Americans do.  

I'm grateful the site begins with the disclaimer pointing out they're
not a bunch of systemV purists; they agree something needs to replace
init scripts, but systemd is not it.  I'm also grateful for how they've
laid out their argument, which comes across as reasoned, measured, and
pragmatic.

Any distro that wants to avoid systemd is also making a decision to
avoid Gnome3 though, as it's a hardcoded dependency (on purpose?).
Imagine a groundswell of support from users - you could see distros
making the bold (but cautious, since they know so many of their users
support this move) decision to do away with Gnome3 and Systemd together.
That would be a big thing!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4738

On 2014-09-07, RS Wood wrote:
> Any distro that wants to avoid systemd is also making a decision to
> avoid Gnome3 though, as it's a hardcoded dependency (on purpose?).

This has been making me grateful that I run Gentoo, which lets you
use whatever you like.  I can trust that my distro will never force
it on me.

Of course, that doesn't stop programs from being absorbed by it.
Gnome is the most prominent example, but upower recently decided to
depend on systemd:

> 2014-06-03-upower-loses-hibernate-suspend-to-systemd
> Title UPower loses hibernate / suspend to systemd
> Author Samuli Suominen [email]
> Posted 2014-06-03
> Revision 1

> UPower discontinued hibernate and suspend support in favor of
> systemd. Because of this, we have created a compability package at
> sys-power/upower-pm-utils which will give you the old UPower with
> sys-power/pm-utils support back.
> 
> Some desktops have integrated the sys-power/pm-utils support
> directly to their code, like Xfce, and as a result, they work also
> with the new UPower as expected.
> ...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4740

On 2014-09-07, Randy Westlund <Vorzakir@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Of course, that doesn't stop programs from being absorbed by it.
> Gnome is the most prominent example, but upower recently decided to
> depend on systemd:
>
>> 2014-06-03-upower-loses-hibernate-suspend-to-systemd
>> Title UPower loses hibernate / suspend to systemd
>> Author Samuli Suominen [email]
>> ...

That's indicative of a huge problem, then: once stuff begins to get
rewritten for the new systemd system, it becomes a monumentally bigger
task getting it out of your system, as other stuff depends on it.
Systemd is also incompatible on BSD systems, so any developer that
writes for systemd is eliminating the ability to run his software on
BSD, which is too bad for everyone involved.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4742

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> On 2014-09-07, Randy Westlund <Vorzakir@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > Of course, that doesn't stop programs from being absorbed by it.
> > Gnome is the most prominent example, but upower recently decided to
> > depend on systemd:
> >
> >> 2014-06-03-upower-loses-hibernate-suspend-to-systemd
> >> Title UPower loses hibernate / suspend to systemd
> >> Author Samuli Suominen [email]
> >> ...

> That's indicative of a huge problem, then: once stuff begins to get
> rewritten for the new systemd system, it becomes a monumentally
> bigger task getting it out of your system, as other stuff depends on
> it. Systemd is also incompatible on BSD systems, so any developer
> that writes for systemd is eliminating the ability to run his
> software on BSD, which is too bad for everyone involved.

It is exactly Microsoft's "Embrace, extend and extinguish" policy, only
applied to Linux.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish>

One would think the systemd dev's are on microsoft's payroll.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4745

On Sun, 7 Sep 2014 19:47:12 +0000 (UTC), Rich <rich@example.invalid>
wrote:

>RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-09-07, Randy Westlund <Vorzakir@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> > Of course, that doesn't stop programs from being absorbed by it.
>> > Gnome is the most prominent example, but upower recently decided to
>> > depend on systemd:
>> >
>> >> 2014-06-03-upower-loses-hibernate-suspend-to-systemd
>> >> Title UPower loses hibernate / suspend to systemd
>> >> Author Samuli Suominen [email]
>> >> ...
>
>> That's indicative of a huge problem, then: once stuff begins to get
>> rewritten for the new systemd system, it becomes a monumentally
>> bigger task getting it out of your system, as other stuff depends on
>> it. Systemd is also incompatible on BSD systems, so any developer
>> that writes for systemd is eliminating the ability to run his
>> software on BSD, which is too bad for everyone involved.
>
>It is exactly Microsoft's "Embrace, extend and extinguish" policy, only
>applied to Linux.
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish>
>
>One would think the systemd dev's are on microsoft's payroll.

 They probably are. :-(
-- 
J B Good

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4748

Hallöchen!

Johny B Good writes:

> On Sun, 7 Sep 2014 19:47:12 +0000 (UTC), Rich <rich@example.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> One would think the systemd dev's are on microsoft's payroll.
>
> They probably are. :-(

RedHat = MS?

Tschö,
Torsten.

-- 
Torsten Bronger    Jabber ID: torsten.bronger@jabber.rwth-aachen.de
                                  or http://bronger-jmp.appspot.com

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4749

Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> Hallöchen!

> Johny B Good writes:

> > On Sun, 7 Sep 2014 19:47:12 +0000 (UTC), Rich <rich@example.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> One would think the systemd dev's are on microsoft's payroll.
> >
> > They probably are. :-(

> RedHat = MS?

It may be that redhat has reached the point that its corporate playbook
is starting to apply the same MS playbook angles to keep the "market
share" they have, and to furhter expand their "market share",

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4750

Hallöchen!

Rich writes:

> Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
>
>> Johny B Good writes:
>
>>> On Sun, 7 Sep 2014 19:47:12 +0000 (UTC), Rich <rich@example.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> One would think the systemd dev's are on microsoft's payroll.
>>>
>>> They probably are. :-(
>>
>> RedHat = MS?
>
> It may be that redhat has reached the point that its corporate
> playbook is starting to apply the same MS playbook angles to keep
> the "market share" they have, and to furhter expand their "market
> share",

RedHat is not dominating the market.  So if all the others adopt
systemd within just four years of developing, even abandoning costly
own solutions, then maybe -- just maybe -- there may be something
quite not-so-bad about it ...  ;-)

Tschö,
Torsten.

-- 
Torsten Bronger    Jabber ID: torsten.bronger@jabber.rwth-aachen.de
                                  or http://bronger-jmp.appspot.com

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4754

>>>> 
>>> 
>>> RedHat = MS?
>> 
>> It may be that redhat has reached the point that its corporate
>> playbook is starting to apply the same MS playbook angles to keep
>> the "market share" they have, and to furhter expand their "market
>> share",
> 
> RedHat is not dominating the market.  So if all the others adopt
> systemd within just four years of developing, even abandoning costly
> own solutions, then maybe -- just maybe -- there may be something
> quite not-so-bad about it ...  ;-)
> 
> Tschö,
> Torsten.

To be fair, I tend to agree with Torsten.  I doubt systemd is some evil 
microsoft-funded, diabolical plan to destabilize the Linux community.  
I think a bunch of well-meaning hackers tried to fix the system v init 
problem, and did so in a way that solved some problems but caused some 
others, or solved the problems in a way other hackers deem imperfect 
and undesireable.   It's true systemd systems start faster (though not 
the 800ms I'm reading on Poettering's blog) -- my opensuse system boots 
in 30 - 40 seconds, I think.  But the rest of what systemd does makes 
me uncomfortable.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4761

On 2014-09-09, RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> RedHat = MS?
>>> 
>>> It may be that redhat has reached the point that its corporate
>>> playbook is starting to apply the same MS playbook angles to keep
>>> the "market share" they have, and to furhter expand their "market
>>> share",
>> 
>> RedHat is not dominating the market.  So if all the others adopt
>> systemd within just four years of developing, even abandoning costly
>> own solutions, then maybe -- just maybe -- there may be something
>> quite not-so-bad about it ...  ;-)
>> 
>> Tschö,
>> Torsten.
>
> To be fair, I tend to agree with Torsten.  I doubt systemd is some evil 
> microsoft-funded, diabolical plan to destabilize the Linux community.  
> I think a bunch of well-meaning hackers tried to fix the system v init 
> problem, and did so in a way that solved some problems but caused some 
> others, or solved the problems in a way other hackers deem imperfect 
> and undesireable.   It's true systemd systems start faster (though not 
> the 800ms I'm reading on Poettering's blog) -- my opensuse system boots 
> in 30 - 40 seconds, I think.  But the rest of what systemd does makes 
> me uncomfortable.

I use Arch Linux, which is now fully committed and converted to systemd.
The change-over was rather scary, as any major change to a 'rolling
release' is likely to be, but I'm becoming comfortable with the new
arrangement.

There is definitely something to be said for having a uniform method of
controlling all services.

Looking at all the files provided by the systemd and libsystemd packages
doesn't make me think that the Unix principle of 'do one thing, well'
has been breached.  This is not an impenetrable monolithic 'thing'
lurking in the shadows, as far as I can see, nor is it anything like
Microsoft's 'Windows Register'.

-- 
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4764

Hallöchen!

Whiskers writes:

> [...]
>
> Looking at all the files provided by the systemd and libsystemd
> packages doesn't make me think that the Unix principle of 'do one
> thing, well' has been breached.

I don't think that this mantra does apply to systemd anyway.  It
applies to the programs that are supposed to be chained together
with pipes.

Tschö,
Torsten.

-- 
Torsten Bronger    Jabber ID: torsten.bronger@jabber.rwth-aachen.de
                                  or http://bronger-jmp.appspot.com

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4744

On 2014-09-07, RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> Systemd is also incompatible on BSD systems, so any developer that
> writes for systemd is eliminating the ability to run his software on
> BSD, which is too bad for everyone involved.

For a counter-example, see VirtualBox, which works with systemd, without
systemd, with launchd, and with svchost.exe.

-Ben

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#4746

RS Wood jotted down:
> Any distro that wants to avoid systemd is also making a decision to
> avoid Gnome3 though, as it's a hardcoded dependency (on purpose?).

It might not just be Gnome 3 anymore... I don't know if this applies to all 
distros, but: when I had Debian 'Jessie' a installed briefly a few weeks ago, I 
discovered that parts of KDE 4.13 required udisks2 and therefore systemd. 
Hopefully it's just a Debian quirk, and won't be universal.


--
"I like to think it's just the Linux people who want to be on the 'leading edge' 
so bad they walk right off the precipice." —Craig Groeschel

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | comp.misc

csiph-web