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Why PHP?

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  Why PHP? clayjar@gmail.com - 2013-03-07 23:14 -0800
    Re: Why PHP? Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-03-08 01:03 -0800
    Re: Why PHP? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-03-08 08:45 -0500
    Re: Why PHP? Martin Leese <please@see.Web.for.e-mail.INVALID> - 2013-03-08 10:11 -0700
      Re: Why PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 18:53 +0000
        Re: Why PHP? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-03-08 13:53 -0600
          Re: Why PHP? Richard Yates <richard@yatesguitar.com> - 2013-03-09 15:41 -0800
            Re: Why PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-10 00:06 +0000
          Re: Why PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-03-10 16:45 +0100
            Re: Why PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-10 16:54 +0000
              Re: Why PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-03-10 19:43 +0100
              Re: Why PHP? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-03-10 16:51 -0400
            Re: Why PHP? Christoph Becker <cmbecker69@gmx.de> - 2013-03-10 21:59 +0100
              Re: Why PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-03-14 20:15 +0100
                Re: Why PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-03-14 23:50 +0100
    Re: Why PHP? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-03-08 18:37 +0100
    Re: Why PHP? clayjar@gmail.com - 2013-03-08 21:38 -0800
      Re: Why PHP? Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-03-08 22:06 -0800
    Re: Why PHP? clayjar@gmail.com - 2013-03-08 21:46 -0800
      Re: Why PHP? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-03-09 12:22 +0100
    Re: Why PHP? David Heller <daveh@allheller.net> - 2013-03-09 06:13 -0800
    Re: Why PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-03-09 16:22 +0100

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#8596 — Why PHP?

I'm a developer at a small but fast growing team at a university medical group. We've had a separate team working on an EMR system for many years on a Windows platform (using C# language), and it's still a big mess mostly due to early but poor architectural decisions. I've been working on a (non-patient data) administrative data system for over 3 years on a LAMP platform. The system I've developed, including the framework designed around the needs of our team, is very stable, easily extensible, user-friendly, and multisite capable.

We're at a point where the EMR system has to be refactored completely inside out for it to be sustainable and viable for mobile access and for other needs. We need to get buy-ins from the .NET/C#/Visual Studio/Windows team as well as from our boss. A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with to build Personal Home Pages. Apparently, he hasn't been keeping himself up-to-date on web development scene.

I need to present a strong case for choosing the LAMP platform, and PHP in particular. I have a very strong, intuitive notion about why LAMP is more suited for web applications than Windows-based alternatives, and experience to back it up, however, I lack professional knowledge about the difference between the two. What page or what information would you recommend to convince somewhat that LAMP platform is better suited for web apps? (Or PHP vs. C#). I have searched enough and pursued this information online, however, it is difficult to ascertain the objectivity due to salient biases and other factors.

I've been using PHP to build many websites for over a decade, and I try to avoid any type of argument for or against a language, because it really depends on how one uses the tools to get something done, although the quality of tool being used does matter to certain degree. The point of this exercise really comes down to trying to convince others to use the framework I've built over the years which is now capable enough to accommodate for more complex systems. The language I happened to use is PHP and the platform is LAMP. If I had started on JSP using Java I wouldn't be doing this, as my friend in our Windows-platform team believes Java to be "enterprise-ready" but not PHP. I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other proprietary platforms.

Thank you for your help.

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#8598

In article <17a9677a-3785-4b5f-a4cf-e78ffd5191a1@googlegroups.com>,
 clayjar@gmail.com wrote:

> I'm a developer at a small but fast growing team at a university medical 
> group. We've had a separate team working on an EMR system for many years on a 
> Windows platform (using C# language), and it's still a big mess mostly due to 
> early but poor architectural decisions. I've been working on a (non-patient 
> data) administrative data system for over 3 years on a LAMP platform. The 
> system I've developed, including the framework designed around the needs of 
> our team, is very stable, easily extensible, user-friendly, and multisite 
> capable.
> 
> We're at a point where the EMR system has to be refactored completely inside 
> out for it to be sustainable and viable for mobile access and for other 
> needs. We need to get buy-ins from the .NET/C#/Visual Studio/Windows team as 
> well as from our boss. A particular individual on the C# team likes the word 
> "enterprise" a lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play 
> around with to build Personal Home Pages. Apparently, he hasn't been keeping 
> himself up-to-date on web development scene.
> 
> I need to present a strong case for choosing the LAMP platform, and PHP in 
> particular. I have a very strong, intuitive notion about why LAMP is more 
> suited for web applications than Windows-based alternatives, and experience 
> to back it up, however, I lack professional knowledge about the difference 
> between the two. What page or what information would you recommend to 
> convince somewhat that LAMP platform is better suited for web apps? (Or PHP 
> vs. C#). I have searched enough and pursued this information online, however, 
> it is difficult to ascertain the objectivity due to salient biases and other 
> factors.
> 
> I've been using PHP to build many websites for over a decade, and I try to 
> avoid any type of argument for or against a language, because it really 
> depends on how one uses the tools to get something done, although the quality 
> of tool being used does matter to certain degree. The point of this exercise 
> really comes down to trying to convince others to use the framework I've 
> built over the years which is now capable enough to accommodate for more 
> complex systems. The language I happened to use is PHP and the platform is 
> LAMP. If I had started on JSP using Java I wouldn't be doing this, as my 
> friend in our Windows-platform team believes Java to be "enterprise-ready" 
> but not PHP. I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some 
> objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker and our 
> boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other proprietary 
> platforms.
> 
> Thank you for your help.

First off, I have a bias towards open systems and no love for Microsoft. 
But I'll try to keep my prejudices to myself in giving you another view 
on this problem.  I often wonder why a specific language or technology 
is chosen for use with specific project. Early on, I knew FORTRAN and 
VAX BASIC best with some C. Then I picked up various shell programming 
languages and added Perl and PHP.  I've stayed pretty much on UNIX and 
MacOS.

While you may not be able to make this determination, do you see your 
applications growing or moving away from a Windows-based environment?  
Do you a development team that can code with equal facility in php and 
C# or is there retraining required?  Is the company willing to pay the 
yearly Microsoft developer's 'tax' (they call it maintenance and 
licensing) to keep the development tools up-to-date and current?

All things being equal, I would think that developing something depends 
on how well your developers know their tools.  I was originally sent on 
a consulting project because the customer thought they'd be developing 
it in FORTRAN.  A couple weeks in, they switched to Pascal, which I 
_could_ do but loath.  The project manager got a more senior person who 
could do the Pascal coding and went on to something else.

I don't know C# or Java but according to Wikipedia, they're both 
object-oriented languages.  All the features you describe are similar.  
The difference is that Java is supposed to be portable across multiple 
platforms and O/S. My experience is it's write-once and debug 
everywhere. 

php isn't really the same sort of language as Java and I'm guessing C#.  
It can run as a discrete process for each page using the CGI model.  Or 
it can run as part of the threaded Apache server as a module.  AFAIK, 
Java and C# talk to an application server using the browser as a front 
end OR as a stand-alone program.  I'm sure some C# people will be 
jumping on me real soon for getting it wrong.

I'd nail down what 'enterprise ready' means for the C# people.  My own 
thought is 'does it scale?'.  To often, applications aren't built with 
large concurrent user communities in mind.  As a sysadmin, I had to 
clean up implementations that didn't allow for downtime and backups or 
left lots of temp files around.  But slobs are slobs in C, FORTRAN, 
Java, or C#.

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#8600

On 3/8/2013 2:14 AM, clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm a developer at a small but fast growing team at a university medical group. We've had a separate team working on an EMR system for many years on a Windows platform (using C# language), and it's still a big mess mostly due to early but poor architectural decisions. I've been working on a (non-patient data) administrative data system for over 3 years on a LAMP platform. The system I've developed, including the framework designed around the needs of our team, is very stable, easily extensible, user-friendly, and multisite capable.
>
> We're at a point where the EMR system has to be refactored completely inside out for it to be sustainable and viable for mobile access and for other needs. We need to get buy-ins from the .NET/C#/Visual Studio/Windows team as well as from our boss. A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with to build Personal Home Pages. Apparently, he hasn't been keeping himself up-to-date on web development scene.
>
> I need to present a strong case for choosing the LAMP platform, and PHP in particular. I have a very strong, intuitive notion about why LAMP is more suited for web applications than Windows-based alternatives, and experience to back it up, however, I lack professional knowledge about the difference between the two. What page or what information would you recommend to convince somewhat that LAMP platform is better suited for web apps? (Or PHP vs. C#). I have searched enough and pursued this information online, however, it is difficult to ascertain the objectivity due to salient biases and other factors.
>
> I've been using PHP to build many websites for over a decade, and I try to avoid any type of argument for or against a language, because it really depends on how one uses the tools to get something done, although the quality of tool being used does matter to certain degree. The point of this exercise really comes down to trying to convince others to use the framework I've built over the years which is now capable enough to accommodate for more complex systems. The language I happened to use is PHP and the platform is LAMP. If I had started on JSP using Java I wouldn't be doing this, as my friend in our Windows-platform team believes Java to be "enterprise-ready" but not PHP. I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other proprietary platforms.
>
> Thank you for your help.
>

I'm not sure PHP is a good answer for your situation.  It sounds like 
your group is not very familiar with PHP, and would have to learn a new 
language.  That in itself is time consuming and contains a fair amount 
of risk.

OTOH, you have (evidently more senior) people who are strongly favoring 
the MS solution, and are strongly in favor of it.  Even of their design 
decisions in the past have not been the greatest, they do have a design 
which will probably require significant modification to work with a 
different language.  It isn't even your group doing the refactoring.

This is more of a political decision than a technical one, especially in 
the university environment.  There are many things to consider, and to 
provide an unbiased opinion on the best way to go would take an unbiased 
person time to look at the project and discuss with the people involved 
before making a decision.  It's not a situation you can describe 
accurately in a few paragraphs, especially since you seem to be as 
biased for PHP as the "enterprise" guy is against it.

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not a big MS fan, either.  However, when 
looking at platforms, I try to put my biases aside and make the best 
decision for the project.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#8601

clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
...
> A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with to build Personal Home Pages.
...
> I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other proprietary platforms.

Facebook is implemented in PHP.

-- 
Regards,
Martin Leese
E-mail: please@see.Web.for.e-mail.INVALID
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/

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#8604

On 08/03/13 17:11, Martin Leese wrote:
> clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
>> A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a
>> lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with
>> to build Personal Home Pages.
> ...
>> I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some
>> objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker
>> and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other
>> proprietary platforms.
>
> Facebook is implemented in PHP.
>
Is that a recommendation or a dis-recommendation?

:-)


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8605

At Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:53:00 +0000 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> 
> On 08/03/13 17:11, Martin Leese wrote:
> > clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
> > ...
> >> A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a
> >> lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with
> >> to build Personal Home Pages.
> > ...
> >> I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some
> >> objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker
> >> and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other
> >> proprietary platforms.
> >
> > Facebook is implemented in PHP.
> >
> Is that a recommendation or a dis-recommendation?

Well Facebook is certainly an enterprise operation and is very
profitable, which suggest that PHP is not a "toy".  Facebook has a huge
user base and seems to manage quite well.  This suggests that LAMP
servers scale well.

> 
> :-)
> 
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933 / heller@deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software        -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments


                    

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#8617

On Fri, 08 Mar 2013 13:53:08 -0600, Robert Heller
<heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:

>At Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:53:00 +0000 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> 
>> On 08/03/13 17:11, Martin Leese wrote:
>> > clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
>> > ...
>> >> A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a
>> >> lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with
>> >> to build Personal Home Pages.
>> > ...
>> >> I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some
>> >> objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker
>> >> and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other
>> >> proprietary platforms.
>> >
>> > Facebook is implemented in PHP.
>> >
>> Is that a recommendation or a dis-recommendation?
>
>Well Facebook is certainly an enterprise operation and is very
>profitable, which suggest that PHP is not a "toy".  Facebook has a huge
>user base and seems to manage quite well.  This suggests that LAMP
>servers scale well.

Also WordPress

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#8618

On 09/03/13 23:41, Richard Yates wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Mar 2013 13:53:08 -0600, Robert Heller
> <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> At Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:53:00 +0000 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 08/03/13 17:11, Martin Leese wrote:
>>>> clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a
>>>>> lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with
>>>>> to build Personal Home Pages.
>>>> ...
>>>>> I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some
>>>>> objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker
>>>>> and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other
>>>>> proprietary platforms.
>>>>
>>>> Facebook is implemented in PHP.
>>>>
>>> Is that a recommendation or a dis-recommendation?
>>
>> Well Facebook is certainly an enterprise operation and is very
>> profitable, which suggest that PHP is not a "toy".  Facebook has a huge
>> user base and seems to manage quite well.  This suggests that LAMP
>> servers scale well.
>
> Also WordPress
>
the speed of WORDpress does not IMpress.



-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8626

Robert Heller, 2013-03-08 20:53:

> At Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:53:00 +0000 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On 08/03/13 17:11, Martin Leese wrote:
>>> clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a
>>>> lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with
>>>> to build Personal Home Pages.
>>> ...
>>>> I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some
>>>> objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker
>>>> and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other
>>>> proprietary platforms.
>>>
>>> Facebook is implemented in PHP.
>>>
>> Is that a recommendation or a dis-recommendation?
> 
> Well Facebook is certainly an enterprise operation and is very
> profitable, which suggest that PHP is not a "toy".  Facebook has a huge
> user base and seems to manage quite well.  This suggests that LAMP
> servers scale well.

Well - Facebook has enough money to run *many* servers. I think in this
case it is nearly irrelevant if they use PHP, C# or whatever - as long
as the backend (database, storage etc.) is capable of handling the load.



-- 
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

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#8627

On 10/03/13 15:45, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Robert Heller, 2013-03-08 20:53:
>
>> At Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:53:00 +0000 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 08/03/13 17:11, Martin Leese wrote:
>>>> clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a
>>>>> lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around with
>>>>> to build Personal Home Pages.
>>>> ...
>>>>> I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some
>>>>> objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker
>>>>> and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other
>>>>> proprietary platforms.
>>>>
>>>> Facebook is implemented in PHP.
>>>>
>>> Is that a recommendation or a dis-recommendation?
>>
>> Well Facebook is certainly an enterprise operation and is very
>> profitable, which suggest that PHP is not a "toy".  Facebook has a huge
>> user base and seems to manage quite well.  This suggests that LAMP
>> servers scale well.
>
> Well - Facebook has enough money to run *many* servers. I think in this
> case it is nearly irrelevant if they use PHP, C# or whatever - as long
> as the backend (database, storage etc.) is capable of handling the load.
>
>
The American solution. Throw money and hardware at sub standard software 
? :-)

>


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8628

The Natural Philosopher, 2013-03-10 17:54:

> On 10/03/13 15:45, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Robert Heller, 2013-03-08 20:53:
[...]
>>> Well Facebook is certainly an enterprise operation and is very
>>> profitable, which suggest that PHP is not a "toy".  Facebook has a huge
>>> user base and seems to manage quite well.  This suggests that LAMP
>>> servers scale well.
>>
>> Well - Facebook has enough money to run *many* servers. I think in this
>> case it is nearly irrelevant if they use PHP, C# or whatever - as long
>> as the backend (database, storage etc.) is capable of handling the load.
>>
>>
> The American solution. Throw money and hardware at sub standard software 
> ? :-)

Propably - yes ;-)

Anyway - i spend a while to get my own PHP installation on
<http://arnowelzel.de> to perform the way it does. "Out of the box" PHP
is neither "fast" nor "scalable".


-- 
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

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#8629

On 3/10/2013 12:54 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/03/13 15:45, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Robert Heller, 2013-03-08 20:53:
>>
>>> At Fri, 08 Mar 2013 18:53:00 +0000 The Natural Philosopher
>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 08/03/13 17:11, Martin Leese wrote:
>>>>> clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> A particular individual on the C# team likes the word "enterprise" a
>>>>>> lot and still believes PHP to be a mere toy that kids play around
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> to build Personal Home Pages.
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some
>>>>>> objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker
>>>>>> and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other
>>>>>> proprietary platforms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Facebook is implemented in PHP.
>>>>>
>>>> Is that a recommendation or a dis-recommendation?
>>>
>>> Well Facebook is certainly an enterprise operation and is very
>>> profitable, which suggest that PHP is not a "toy".  Facebook has a huge
>>> user base and seems to manage quite well.  This suggests that LAMP
>>> servers scale well.
>>
>> Well - Facebook has enough money to run *many* servers. I think in this
>> case it is nearly irrelevant if they use PHP, C# or whatever - as long
>> as the backend (database, storage etc.) is capable of handling the load.
>>
>>
> The American solution. Throw money and hardware at sub standard software
> ? :-)
>
>>
>
>

Hardware is cheap.  Americans use cost-effective methods.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#8630

Arno Welzel wrote:

> Well - Facebook has enough money to run *many* servers. I think in this
> case it is nearly irrelevant if they use PHP, C# or whatever - as long
> as the backend (database, storage etc.) is capable of handling the load.

Apparently it is not that irrelevant; otherwise they wouldn't have
developed HipHop.

-- 
Christoph M. Becker

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#8664

Christoph Becker, 2013-03-10 21:59:

> Arno Welzel wrote:
> 
>> Well - Facebook has enough money to run *many* servers. I think in this
>> case it is nearly irrelevant if they use PHP, C# or whatever - as long
>> as the backend (database, storage etc.) is capable of handling the load.
> 
> Apparently it is not that irrelevant; otherwise they wouldn't have
> developed HipHop.

Indeed - Facebook does not use "native" PHP - instead they compile
everything from PHP to C++ and then to native machine code ;-)



-- 
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

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#8665

Am 14.03.2013 20:15, schrieb Arno Welzel:
> Christoph Becker, 2013-03-10 21:59:
> 
>> Arno Welzel wrote:
>>
>>> Well - Facebook has enough money to run *many* servers. I think in this
>>> case it is nearly irrelevant if they use PHP, C# or whatever - as long
>>> as the backend (database, storage etc.) is capable of handling the load.
>>
>> Apparently it is not that irrelevant; otherwise they wouldn't have
>> developed HipHop.
> 
> Indeed - Facebook does not use "native" PHP - instead they compile
> everything from PHP to C++ and then to native machine code ;-)

Such systems are not created over night, and not following the manual.

I am quite sure they tried everything possible, and some impossible ways to deliver
the required performance. This is a long process, everybody has to go through
according to his special needs.

/Str.

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#8603

On 08/03/13 08:14, clayjar@gmail.com wrote:

> I need to present a strong case for choosing the LAMP platform, and PHP in particular. I have a very strong, intuitive notion about why LAMP is more suited for web applications than Windows-based alternatives, and experience to back it up, however, I lack professional knowledge about the difference between the two. What page or what information would you recommend to convince somewhat that LAMP platform is better suited for web apps? (Or PHP vs. C#). I have searched enough and pursued this information online, however, it is difficult to ascertain the objectivity due to salient biases and other factors.

I have been working with both, I don't have really too much experience 
of the web part when it comes to dotnet, but it has a lot of drawbacks 
when it comes to the early releases, getting better in C# 4.5 framework.

If you are using a lot of Linux specifics, then of course C#/dotnet is a 
poor choice and if you relay a lot on microsoft products, then C# may be 
better. C# in itself is quite okey and there is mono which is supports 
more platforms (Linux, OSX, ms-windows, ...) and could be used as a 
middle way, it allows the PHP team to work with the Linux which they are 
used to and the C# team gets the coding language they are used with.
In the end it's how you integrate things which will give you a "best 
option", but I doubt the team will be able to write much better than 
previous time, no matter what you choose.


> I've been using PHP to build many websites for over a decade, and I try to avoid any type of argument for or against a language, because it really depends on how one uses the tools to get something done, although the quality of tool being used does matter to certain degree. The point of this exercise really comes down to trying to convince others to use the framework I've built over the years which is now capable enough to accommodate for more complex systems. The language I happened to use is PHP and the platform is LAMP. If I had started on JSP using Java I wouldn't be doing this, as my friend in our Windows-platform team believes Java to be "enterprise-ready" but not PHP. I'm sincerely asking the PHP community here to point me to some objective materials to help convince my (very pro-Microsoft) coworker and our boss that LAMP stack is a VERY viable alternative to other proprietary platforms.

You could always ask if anyone of them has used wikipedia of flickr and 
ask them if they think they use enterprise solution or not. Most likely 
all of them have happen to use one or the other and I doubt your system 
will get near the usage those two php based sites.

Myself I have seen that mcirosoft followers have difficulties to see 
benefits in more open projects and tend to treat them as non enterprise 
solutions as they are free and as everyone know enterprise solutions 
always costs a lot money.

Sadly I don't have a good answer to give you, but take the benefits you 
have, like you already have a stable, fast and tested framework and no 
need of spending time on trying to get together a C# framework for the 
project which will serve your companies needs. Bring in the guys who 
makes the budget, tell them how much they would save if the company went 
with the in-house framework instead of spending loads of money on 
license fees and if you have some good technical operation guys, I think 
they rather have a stable fast patched computer system than waiting a 
month or even up to 18 months to get a patch (there are some serious 
bugs in C# <=3 which hasn't been fixed in 5 years). And last, the PHP 
will always be easier to migrate to another platform, while the 
microsoft solution will always be locked and there is no where to go 
when EOF happens to the server version you are running and the dotnet 
version ain't compatible with the dotnet version default on the new 
generation of ms-server-windows.


-- 

  //Aho

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#8606

It may be more helpful to me if you could state the number of years of experience in which development environment. The collective experience found here is much weightier than what I can put on the table on my own. I'd like to use your opinions if you don't object to that. I've formed the analysis document into categories of "Proprietary vs. Open Source", "Windows vs. Linux", "IIS vs. Apache", "SQL Server vs. MySQL", "C# vs. PHP". Basically, it comes down to a philosophical issue, and yes, I have my development tent pitched on a free software philosophy. I'm also hesitant about taking this route to form a persuasive presentation, because as many of you already mentioned, the competency of the team along with the factor of learning curves are major determinants than other things.

We are trying to take a long view approach to deal with the sustainability of our own development team, and it's unquestionably clear that open source approach is the way to go for us given the budget and many restraints that are in place, however, there have been years of mismanagement, thus producing an untenable environment that is merely being maintained at status quo simply to avoid hurting people's feelings. Our software products are becoming more important in the overall strategy as we are growing rapidly. As someone already had also mentioned, in a university setting, there is indeed a large overhead, mostly associated with politics. Sometimes, my stomach churns when I start pondering about the amount of tax money we've burnt through simply to maintain a status quo on a crap software. All these so-called managers get away with it all, topped off posh benefits with degrees and undeserved, illusory prestige.

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#8608

In article <4628d3d3-ea23-4be2-825a-7090a04bef0d@googlegroups.com>,
 clayjar@gmail.com wrote:

> It may be more helpful to me if you could state the number of years of 
> experience in which development environment. The collective experience found 
> here is much weightier than what I can put on the table on my own. I'd like 
> to use your opinions if you don't object to that. I've formed the analysis 
> document into categories of "Proprietary vs. Open Source", "Windows vs. 
> Linux", "IIS vs. Apache", "SQL Server vs. MySQL", "C# vs. PHP". Basically, it 
> comes down to a philosophical issue, and yes, I have my development tent 
> pitched on a free software philosophy. I'm also hesitant about taking this 
> route to form a persuasive presentation, because as many of you already 
> mentioned, the competency of the team along with the factor of learning 
> curves are major determinants than other things.
> 
> We are trying to take a long view approach to deal with the sustainability of 
> our own development team, and it's unquestionably clear that open source 
> approach is the way to go for us given the budget and many restraints that 
> are in place, however, there have been years of mismanagement, thus producing 
> an untenable environment that is merely being maintained at status quo simply 
> to avoid hurting people's feelings. Our software products are becoming more 
> important in the overall strategy as we are growing rapidly. As someone 
> already had also mentioned, in a university setting, there is indeed a large 
> overhead, mostly associated with politics. Sometimes, my stomach churns when 
> I start pondering about the amount of tax money we've burnt through simply to 
> maintain a status quo on a crap software. All these so-called managers get 
> away with it all, topped off posh benefits with degrees and undeserved, 
> illusory prestige.

30 years ago, I took an internal project management class when I was 
working for DEC.  The first day, the instructor did the typical 
intro--goals of the class, who's here, why, and what they want to cover, 
and her qualifications.  Then she put this slide up:

PHASES OF A PROJECT

1. ENTHUSIASM
2. DISILLUSIONMENT
3. PANIC
4. SEARCH FOR THE GUILTY
5. PUNISHMENT OF THE INNOCENT
6. PRAISE AND HONORS FOR THE NON-PARTICIPANTS

Over the years, I've not see this model change.  Ever.  It's like 
running something akin to a rational orderly project that gets it's 
deliverables in on time and budget are not part of the corporate or 
government culture.  You're obviously somewhere between #4, #5, and #6 
here.

I suspect that whatever happens and whatever direction this project 
goes, it won't be on technical merits.  But there I go, being a cynic 
again.

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#8607

It may be more helpful to me if you could state the number of years of experience in which development environment. The collective experience found here is much weightier than what I can put on the table on my own. I'd like to use your opinions if you don't object to that. I've formed the analysis document into categories of "Proprietary vs. Open Source", "Windows vs. Linux", "IIS vs. Apache", "SQL Server vs. MySQL", "C# vs. PHP". Basically, it comes down to a philosophical issue, and yes, I have my development tent pitched on a free software philosophy. I'm also hesitant about taking this route to form a persuasive presentation, because as many of you already mentioned, the competency of the team along with the factor of learning curves are major determinants than other things. 

We are trying to take a long view approach to deal with the sustainability of our own development team, and it's unquestionably clear that open source approach is the way to go for us given the budget and many restraints that are in place, however, there have been years of mismanagement, thus producing an untenable environment at status quo simply to avoid hurting people's feelings. Our software products are becoming more important in the overall strategy as we are growing rapidly. Thank you, and I hope to hear more of your inputs on this.

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#8611

On 09/03/13 06:46, clayjar@gmail.com wrote:
> It may be more helpful to me if you could state the number of years of experience in which development environment.

PHP: ~9 years
C#/dotnet: ~3 years

> I'd like to use your opinions if you don't object to that.

Surely dotnet has much built in when it comes to input verification, but 
at the same time it makes it inflexible and sometimes feeling that you 
have no say on how to do things. PHP is more flexible and using a 
framework still allows you easy access the values and adding your own 
features, but at the same time if you haven't tough of all the dangers, 
then you may end up with a less secure product (of course if you have 
made a MVC2 dotnet application, it will be insecure as microsoft will 
not release a patch to older version of dotnet which would prevent code 
injection with crafted input values, at least php has the advantage you 
can patch a fault yourself in the version you use if upstream don't 
provide a backport to the version you are using).

Surely the Visual Studio and MonoDevelop are excellent tools to develop 
dotnet applications with and giving you a lot of help, which you lack in 
most IDE when it comes to php, specially break point in the code, 
allowing you to step through the code and even allow you to modify 
variable values.

When it comes to online documentation, php.net is difficult to beat and 
microsoft has a long long path to walk before they are anywhere near and 
you will also find a lot of bad solution examples for dotnet out there 
as it's been quite popular in India (too many not so good coders over 
there who made HOWTOs, but there are a handful exceptions).

At my current work, we have a mixed environment, where we have 
dotnet/iis based web servers, but the main logic is run on linux servers 
on c++ based daemons. It works, but I feel that IIS ain't at all as good 
as Apache (I may be colored by the almost 20 years I have been using 
Apache) and I prefer Apache over IIS and of course Apache running on 
Linux/BSD over Apache on ms-windows.


> I've formed the analysis document into categories of "Proprietary vs. Open Source", "Windows vs. Linux", "IIS vs. Apache", "SQL Server vs. MySQL", "C# vs. PHP".

SQL Server is okey at some times, don't rule it out even if you choose 
to use PHP, it has it's benefits over MySQL, but also it has it's 
drawbacks. I wouldn't pick MySQL as it's not that transaction safe, even 
using innodb, but maybe you should look at PostgreSQL which has a major 
benefit over MySQL as PostgreSQL can handle data encryption (some of the 
patient data may be good to store as encrypted data).

When it comes to my experience of OS, Linux and BSD are far faster to 
get security updates and i maybe would favor the BSD over Linux if you 
are storing critical patient data (or at least have a BSD based 
loadbalancer/firewall in front of the Linux machines), for you I don't 
think switching over to BSD would be a big thing, most of the things 
would be pretty similar. Don't forget that many microsoft updates 
require you to reboot the system, the only time you need to reboot a 
Linux/BSD system is when you needed to upgrade the kernel (there is 
money costing option for Linux which can even make it possible to patch 
the kernel without reboot).


> Basically, it comes down to a philosophical issue, and yes, I have my development tent pitched on a free software philosophy.
> I'm also hesitant about taking this route to form a persuasive presentation, because as many of you already mentioned, the
> competency of the team along with the factor of learning curves are major determinants than other things.

I think the curve will be approximately the same, no matter which way 
you go, as long you have done a good documentation of your framework, if 
not, go through your code, make proper comments where it's needed and 
use a tool like phpdoc to generate a documentation.

It's in the end the side with the most convincing arguments (in the 
bosses ear) that will be the winner, and it has nothing to do with which 
is the best solution. So money, stability, security are those things you 
may have to focus on.


> We are trying to take a long view approach to deal with the sustainability of our own development team,

Then moving to the open source is a far better then being closed in, as 
I mentioned the MVC2 issue, we are still suffering of the potential risk 
(even if we have been adding our own validation, but you never know when 
someone forgets to add that extra validation to a variable)  and you 
can't just switch to MVC3/4 without rewriting the whole thing.

Just keep on pointing out the long waiting time for critical bugs and 
near EOL and after there is no way to get those issues fixed in a 
microsoft environment, you need to upgrade to the new version, getting a 
new license for everything and then rewrite more or less everything again.


> and it's unquestionably clear that open source approach is the way to go for us given the budget and many
> restraints that are in place, however, there have been years of mismanagement, thus producing an untenable
> environment at status quo simply to avoid hurting people's feelings.

To get rid of the bad, it's better that those who has been indoctrinated 
in the bad ways to switch to something new, as they have to learn 
something new and at the same time it's easier to teach them to do 
things the right way, if they stay with what they are familiar with, the 
risk is higher they will keep on doing the same bad mistakes as they did 
before as they think they know everything already.

Something you could do is to setup an automatized deployment of a test 
environment using git (or svn) and teamcity (or jenkins). We have setup 
so that when a new feature branch is pushed to stash (we use the 
atlassian stash as our git daemon), teamcity deploys it so it can be 
tested by our test team. When a feature branch is merged into develop 
branch we get teamcity to deploy it to the proper test environment. The 
main branch is always deployed to the stage environment, but teamcity 
only builds an install package as we can't have an automatic deployment 
to the live environment and our tehcops needs to have a chance to 
practice the installation before doing it live.. Having things automatic 
and feature rich, you will make a wow factor and show how well your 
setup works, if you then even attach some automatic test suites to it 
like Selenium (we are just in the evaluation phase of which test suite 
we ill use, so can't advice which one to use), but having at least some 
basic automatic tests done on each deployment will ensure you that 
things still work without the need of spending time, if you then attache 
the overall result of the test (success/failed) in stash(jira (another 
atlassian product), then you know if the feature branch should not be 
merged to the develop branch (of course you need to maintain the test 
cases if features changes, and it should be the developer who made the 
big change who fixes the test case).
Of course the automatic testing shouldn't be a replacement for unitests, 
but a complimentary, also it's not a replacement for real testers.

A boss who would see something like this (and never seen it before in 
the company), would most likely choose the automatic testing, easy 
merging of code, for this is how an enterprise development environment 
should work.


> Our software products are becoming more
> important in the overall strategy as we are growing rapidly.

I think it can bee good on think of the whole process from planing a 
feature, develop the feature, test the feature and deploy the feature 
and show how much time will in general be spent on each step, and of 
course you choose the worst options for the system you don't like.

Keep in mind to tell of the positive things with your setup to people 
around, even those who don't have anything to do with the decision, like 
if you have something like techops, then you could tell them how little 
time and preparation they would need for deploying the php project, 
while using dotnet they would need to learn loads of new tools and it 
would still be difficult (of course don't like, but bend the truth a 
bit, the microsoft way).

Don't forget to push that your development system is already up and 
running, while switching to C#/dotnet and rewrite most of the things 
would delay the product at least 3 months or even 12 months (we made a 
replacement system completely in C# it took us 13 months to rewrite 
everything from scratch and it had less features (~1/3) than the old 
system and we had 6 developers working on it), we know which frameworks 
we would be using, but still 3 months was used to fine tune things and 
set a coding standard and rewrite parts which didn't match the new standard.
As you have the framework, you would directly starting with porting the 
features to the new platform and those you have saved at least 3 months 
in developing time, the bigger team the more money you save.

I hope there is something you will have use of.

-- 
  //Aho

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