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Re: Script in <a > tag in IE

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W dniu 2013-02-10 21:28, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn pisze:
> Cezary Tomczyk wrote:
[...]
>> :-) I have created a site based on MediaWiki:
>>
>> http://faq.jscode.info/index.php/Main_Page
>>
>> If this can helps then site could be improved by adding new contributors
>> and content. Otherwise just say: "Not this time" :-)
>
> Thanks but no, thanks.  We have already discussed the problems of a Wiki
> approach; the arguments as to that, and my reasons against that, have not
> changed.  Conclusions reached from discussion which can be mutually agreed
> on should become FAQ Notes, editable only by very few people who can be
> trusted that they would not use their influence to propagate their personal
> opinions, in order to ensure integrity.
>
> Besides, there are many misconceptions waiting to be promoted from reading
> the text that is already there because it is poorly worded and contains
> factual errors.

Ok.

[...]
>> Well, I never use event-handler attributes on elements.
>
> So much the pity.  I use event-handler attributes whenever there is no
> better alternative, for the already named reasons at least.
>
>> Just separate behaviours and logic.
>
> You are under the delusion that “behavior” and “(business) logic” are
> separate things.  Business logic *is* the behavior of the application; what
> it does when it receives certain input.  Perhaps you meant to say “separate
> presentation and layout” (which can be a reasonable approach, but _not_ /per
> se/); still your confusing that already shows how little you actually
> *understand* of what you are talking about.

Well, I think about exactly what was described in links which I 
specified in one of the previous post.

>> For me is just easier for maintenance.
>
> Each time you edit you will have to switch between the script code and the
> markup, even for tasks that require no more than a one-liner with an event-
> handler attribute, and – proven already – considerably more (if done
> properly) with that so-called “unobtrusive JavaScript” approach.  How can
> *greater* code distance and *unnecessarily* *complicated*, *larger* code
> ease maintenance?

Even, if changes is about "one-liner with an event-handler attribute" 
then I prefer always to make a script code in a separate file. I do not 
want to mix html markup with any script code. It will keep my html 
document clean.

>> Another thing is when user has no JavaScript* (for whatever reason) then
>> HTML code is just slightly bigger to download. Not maybe big difference,
>> but it is. Because contains event-handler attributes which will not be
>> used when JavaScript is not available.
>
> Your logic is flawed.  In general, you need *more* source code if you do not
> use event-handler attributes at all, to make it work reliably.  The user
> needs to download that *larger* code base the *same* as with event-handler
> attributes, *no matter* whether client-side scripting is supported.

I use reusable patterns which means that I do not need every time to 
create separate code for every behaviour. Even, if this will take a few 
lines more it doesn't matter.

Arguments, with which I agree:

http://stackoverflow.com/a/11742769/896702

> Browsers do not skip downloading script code when client-side script support
> is disabled, because it could be re-enabled afterwards.

I created the test page 
http://www.ctomczyk.pl/lab/script_loading/test.html and for example 
Firefox 18.0.2 do not downloading script when scripts are disabled in 
browsers.

>> I wouldn't worry so much about some few kilobytes more in JavaScript
>> files. There is more important in my opinion problems like: too much
>> requests to server (files are not combined into one file, a lot of
>> requests for some data, etc.), not efficient code, files not cached, etc.
>
> Files (better: resources) are cacheable in both cases.  And you are
> *increasing* the number of requests if you move code to external resources,
> even when not necessary.  Again I ask you: Where is the logic in that?

I am not increasing the number of requests if I move code to external 
resources. This only happens while developing. Later all script code are 
combined into one file during build process.

>>>>>> Also, I provided links that contains explanations "why not inline
>>>>>> events". You do not have to agree with them.
>>>>> I do not, because they are utter nonsense.
>>>> Without any evidences I can not say that you have right. Anyway, let's
>>>> leave it as is.
>>> No, truth must be told, and you have not thought this through.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I like evidences instead of trusting :-)
>
> You should not and you do not have to take this on trust; neither should you
> take the statements of anyone else, including Douglas Crockford, on trust or
> even faith.  Look for *well-founded*, *provable* and *proven* arguments, not
> authority.  Keep in mind: An argument from authority is a fallacy, because
> the *assumed* authority can be wrong.  This is probably the best advice that
> can be given in this field where, due to a stream of beginners that think
> they are experts even after a considerably short exposure and experience,
> superficially logical sounding utter nonsense is commonplace.

That conclusion sounds good for me.

> I have pointed out to you again the evidence that shows why your assumptions
> are wrong, even though they should be obvious to a reasonable person.  All
> you need to do now is accept them so that you can evaluate them.

Sometimes I may disagree with some of arguments. Discuss is the best 
option to change the mind.

-- 
Cezary Tomczyk
http://www.ctomczyk.pl/

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Thread

Script in <a  > tag in IE Tim Slattery <Slattery_T@bls.gov> - 2013-02-07 14:32 -0500
  Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2013-02-07 20:47 +0100
    Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Tim Slattery <Slattery_T@bls.gov> - 2013-02-07 15:08 -0500
      Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-07 21:20 +0100
      Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE SAM <stephanemoriaux.NoAdmin@wanadoo.fr.invalid> - 2013-02-09 16:42 +0100
    Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-07 21:30 +0000
      Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 07:08 +0000
        Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Christoph Becker <cmbecker69@gmx.de> - 2013-02-08 16:30 +0100
          Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-08 15:41 +0000
  Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-07 21:02 +0100
    Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Eric Bednarz <bednarz@fahr-zur-hoelle.org> - 2013-02-09 00:19 +0100
      Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Eric Bednarz <bednarz@fahr-zur-hoelle.org> - 2013-02-09 00:25 +0100
      Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-09 14:35 +0100
        Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Eric Bednarz <bednarz@fahr-zur-hoelle.org> - 2013-02-09 22:27 +0100
  Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-02-09 20:33 +0100
    Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-10 00:08 +0100
      Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 00:52 +0100
        Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-10 01:07 +0100
          Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 01:20 +0100
            Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-10 01:27 +0100
              Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 01:43 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-10 13:55 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 20:38 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-10 21:28 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-10 21:37 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 22:56 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Eric Bednarz <bednarz@fahr-zur-hoelle.org> - 2013-02-11 00:09 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Eric Bednarz <bednarz@fahr-zur-hoelle.org> - 2013-02-11 00:30 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 00:43 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-11 01:02 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Eric Bednarz <bednarz@fahr-zur-hoelle.org> - 2013-02-11 01:16 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-11 01:49 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Eric Bednarz <bednarz@fahr-zur-hoelle.org> - 2013-02-11 17:59 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-11 18:19 +0100
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 13:03 -0800
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-11 22:09 +0100
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 13:59 -0800
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE "Richard Cornford" <Richard@litotes.demon.co.uk> - 2013-02-18 00:15 +0000
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 12:33 -0800
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE "Richard Cornford" <Richard@litotes.demon.co.uk> - 2013-02-22 00:59 +0000
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2013-02-23 07:54 -0800
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-22 02:00 +0100
                Re: Script in <a > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-22 01:12 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-11 01:38 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-11 00:48 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-02-11 01:09 +0100
                Re: Script in <a  > tag in IE Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-02-20 00:07 +0100
        Re: Script in <a > tag in IE dhtml <dhtmlkitchen@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 07:30 -0800

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