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Re: <noscript> problem

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John Harris wrote:

> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> John Harris wrote:
>>> […] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn […] wrote:
>>>> John Harris wrote:
>>>>> [?] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [?] wrote:
>>>> Kerning has nothing to do with inserting a space character of any kind.
>>> 
>>> Positive kerning has *everything* to with inserting white space, using
>>> whatever technology is available.
>>
>> Utter nonsense.
>>
>>>>> As an example, there are books published by Victor Gollancz Ltd, a
>>>>> reputable publisher, that have a longer gap in front of ? and !. It
>>>>> isn't a space character, but in plain ASCII text there isn't any other
>>>>> choice.
>>>> Irrelevant evidence
>>> 
>>> You say *never*; I give an example of *not never*. How can that be
>>> irrelevant ?
>>
>>By your own account, it is not a space character.
>   <snip>
> 
> […]
> I didn't say it was not a space character. I said there was a gap.

What matters is that you said „It isn't a space character.“

> It should be obvious that the means of achieving that effect is not
> important. It's the visible effect that matters.

In Usenet (which is the context of this discussion), the author cannot be 
sure about the visible effect as they are likely to use a different display 
than the reader (there are several applications on several platforms with 
which newsgroups can be accessed), except this:

The visible effect of inserting a space character before an end mark is that 
if text is automatically word-wrapped (which is recommended in order to keep 
to 80 characters per line or less), the space character causes the end mark 
to be word-wrapped, leaving a standalone end mark at the beginning of a 
line.  This is contrary to your stated goal of achieving better readability.

The same happens if you do this with a word processor if the intention is to 
publish it as electronic document, and is therefore recommended against 
there, too.  (In French you would have to use a species of non-breaking 
space for proper punctuation.)

In desktop publishing, which is different from word processing, on the other 
hand, the copy-editor has control over the presentation.  Therefore, it is a 
separate context.

And AISB, kerning is a separate matter that applies to all forms of 
copywriting.  However, in Usenet the author has no control over the kerning 
at the reader’s, and in a word processor they have only limited control 
(because, again, the software used to create the text/document need not be 
the same as the one with which it is read).

>>> No. The author can change the kerning for particular characters when
>>> using a desktop publishing tool such as Framemaker or Word 2. (Both
>>> have character styles).
>> Which still has nothing to do with inserting (space) characters.  It has
>> to do with *spacing* *between* (non-whitespace) characters.
>>
>> What do you mean by “Word 2”?
> 
> I mean Microsoft Word for Windows 2. It ran on Win 3.1, and was a word
> processor, and still is, now as Word 2013.

Microsoft Word is not desktop publishing software, contrary to what you 
said.  A word processor is fundamentally different from desktop publishing 
software.

Also, Word 2.0 is severely outdated software (released in 1985 [MS-DOS] and 
1991 [Windows], superseded by Word 3 for MS-DOS in 1986, for Mac OS in 1987, 
and Word for Windows 6.0 in 1993), and its similarities with Word 2013 are 
limited to the basic use-case, the vendor and the product name.  AISB, in 
the best case, which means giving you the benefit of a doubt, you are out of 
touch.

> The online Encyclopedia Britannica also says orthography means study
> of spelling.
> 
> It looks as though your extended meaning hadn't gathered sufficient
> evidence of use at the time these standard references were last
> updated.

Fallacy.  Those are not the only standard references.

>>As you are either unwilling or unable to back up your position, to cut
>>this short: You will find in the respective style guides (the “New Oxford
>>Style Manual”, among others) how the English language is (supposed to be)
>>written; it does _not_ include the insertion of white-space before end
>>marks. ?
> 
> The Oxford book is said by the publisher to contain advice;

Actually, the New Oxford Style Manual is summarized by its publisher as 
follows:

,-<http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199657223.do>
| 
| - The essential handbook for all writers and editors
| - Gives expert advice on writing and preparing copy and the spelling of 
|   words, covering headings, hyphenation, UK and US usage, capitalization, 
|   punctuation, indexing, and much more
| - Prepared in consultation with professionals and endorsed by the Society 
|   for Editors and Proofreaders
| 
| The New Oxford Style Manual brings together two essential reference works 
| in a single volume.
| 
| New Hart's Rules, Oxford's definite guide to style, consists of 20 
| chapters and gives authoritative and expert advice on how to prepare copy 
| for publication. Topics covered include how to punctuate and hyphenate 
| accurately, capitalization guidelines, structure your text coherently, how 
| to use quotations and citations clearly, how to provide accurate 
| references, UK and US usage, and much more.
| 
| The guidelines are complemented by the New Oxford Dictionary for Writers $
| and Editors which features 25,000 A-Z entries giving authoritative advice 
| on those words and names which raise questions time and time again because 
| of spelling, capitalization, hyphenation, or cultural and historical 
| context. Entries give full coverage of recommended spellings, variant 
| forms, confusable words, hyphenation, capitalization, foreign and 
| specialist terms, proper names, and abbreviations. The dictionary also 
| includes superb appendices for quick reference including proofreading 
| marks, countries and currencies, and alphabets.
| 
| Combining these two updated works and drawing on the unrivalled research 
| and expertise of the Oxford Reference and Dictionaries departments, this 
| volume is an essential part of every editor's and writer's toolkit.
| 
| Readership: Editors, proofreaders, publishers, typesetters, printers, 
| newspaper and magazine editors, web editors, journalists, lawyers, 
| academics, and anyone else who works with the written word. 

Note the key words: “reference”, “rules”, “definite”, “accurate(ly)”, 
“coherently”, “clearly”, “authoritative”, “recommended”, “proofreading”,
and “essential”.

> you call it a guide.

The publisher says it contains guidelines, which makes it a guide, and it is 
also referred to as a “style guide” in other media not published by me.

As the author whose book I am reading puts it so aptly, your contact with 
the facts seems to be sporadic at best.  Therefore, I see no logic to 
continue discussing with you about this here and elsewhere until this has 
changed.

-- 
PointedEars
FAQ: <http://PointedEars.de/faq> | SVN: <http://PointedEars.de/wsvn/>
Twitter: @PointedEars2 | ES Matrix: <http://PointedEars.de/es-matrix>
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Thread

<noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 09:17 -0700
  Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-13 16:58 +0000
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 13:15 -0700
      Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-13 22:39 +0200
        Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 17:48 -0700
          Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-14 09:30 -0200
            Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-14 12:07 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-14 10:50 -0200
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-14 15:53 +0100
  Re: <noscript> problem "Christoph M. Becker" <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2015-01-13 18:12 +0100
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 13:19 -0700
  Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-13 15:18 -0200
  Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-13 19:30 +0200
    Re: <noscript> problem Erwin Moller <erwinmollerusenet@xs4all.nl> - 2015-01-14 15:19 +0100
      Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-14 17:13 +0200
  Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-13 18:48 +0100
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 11:58 -0700
    Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-14 14:47 +0000
      Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 14:49 +0100
        Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 15:31 +0000
          Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 17:30 +0100
            Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 16:38 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 18:31 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 17:35 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-15 20:00 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 22:19 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-16 09:23 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 12:23 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-17 20:09 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 22:54 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-18 12:16 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-18 17:26 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-18 16:50 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-19 10:17 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-19 10:40 +0000
        Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-15 19:53 +0000
          Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 22:17 +0100
            Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-16 09:59 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 13:02 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-18 16:10 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-19 15:10 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-20 10:24 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-20 12:09 +0000

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