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Re: <noscript> problem

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John Harris wrote:

> […] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn […] wrote:
>> John Harris wrote:
>>> […] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn […] wrote:
>>>> John Harris wrote:
>>>>> The 'rationale' makes an assumption that simply isn't true.
>>>> What is the assumption made that simply is not true IYHO?
>>> 
>>> As Dr Johnson famously said, I refute it thus :-
>>> 
>>> Thomas Lahn said:
>>>> [?]
> 
> Your quoting machinery has gone wrong. It's inserted a random
> character.

No, the character I posted was U+2026 HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS, as it had been in 
the/your original (where it was Windows-1252-encoded as 0x85, and falsely 
declared ISO-8859-1-encoded in the “Content-Type” header field [1]).  The 
character that I posted was properly UTF-8-encoded, and UTF-8 was properly 
declared in the “Content-Type” header field of my follow-up.

Given that your “posting machinery” (newsreader) declared the wrong 
character encoding, my "quoting machinery" (newsreader) did a really good 
job at guessing the right one, and my "posting machinery" (newsreader) at 
finding an equivalent character and suitable character encoding.

Your "reading machinery" (newsreader) then failed at decoding it.

>> wrote” is more commonly used than “said”, partially by newsreader
>> defaults. But where is the refutation?
> 
> Dr Johnson assumed his audience was intelligent enough to work it out
> without help.

That is either an Historian’s fallacy or an Intentionality fallacy, and 
certainly an Ad hominem fallacy. [2]

> So here is a detailed explanation. You assert that the Message ID for
> the quoted text is in the quoting article's headers. Here is an
> example where it clearly isn't. This destroys your case.

That argument is fallacious, too.  The fallacy there is probably a “faulty 
generalization”, probably the “cherry picking” or the “hasty generalization” 
subtype. [2]

Because in your argument you are ignoring the context.  Quotations need to 
be attributed only as necessary in the context in which they are used.

If you are quoting from the same sub-thread of a discussion, which is the 
default, it is usually not necessary (see below) to provide the Message IDs 
or other identifying information – except the name of the author – in the 
message body because the Message IDs are in the article’s _header_ (which is 
used by several newsreaders – as apparent from screenshots, not yours –, for 
a one-click solution to look up the referenced article).

If instead you are quoting a source not from the same sub-thread, it is 
necessary to provide identifying information in order to make clear to the 
reader that you did not from the same sub-thread; that information could be 
one or several of: “Subject” header field value, name and (“From”) address 
of the author, date of injection, and Message ID (the list may not be 
exhaustive).

Also, in the unusual case that you want to remind someone of something that 
had been said before in the same sub-thread, but was not quoted by the 
author(s) of the precursor(s), it may be necessary to provide identifying 
information with it the same as if you quoted text from outside the same 
thread.  In particular, it can be less efficient to reconstruct the 
attribution lines, related quotations, and the number of default quotation 
characters necessary to return the quoted text to its context than to use 
the quotation character usually reserved for third-party quotations (“|”) 
and provide the identifying information with the so-marked quotation (BTDT).

_________
[1] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Latin_character_sets_(computing)#Comparison_table>
[2] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies>
-- 
PointedEars
FAQ: <http://PointedEars.de/faq> | SVN: <http://PointedEars.de/wsvn/>
Twitter: @PointedEars2 | ES Matrix: <http://PointedEars.de/es-matrix>
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Thread

<noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 09:17 -0700
  Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-13 16:58 +0000
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 13:15 -0700
      Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-13 22:39 +0200
        Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 17:48 -0700
          Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-14 09:30 -0200
            Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-14 12:07 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-14 10:50 -0200
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-14 15:53 +0100
  Re: <noscript> problem "Christoph M. Becker" <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2015-01-13 18:12 +0100
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 13:19 -0700
  Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-13 15:18 -0200
  Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-13 19:30 +0200
    Re: <noscript> problem Erwin Moller <erwinmollerusenet@xs4all.nl> - 2015-01-14 15:19 +0100
      Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-14 17:13 +0200
  Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-13 18:48 +0100
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 11:58 -0700
    Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-14 14:47 +0000
      Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 14:49 +0100
        Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 15:31 +0000
          Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 17:30 +0100
            Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 16:38 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 18:31 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 17:35 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-15 20:00 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 22:19 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-16 09:23 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 12:23 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-17 20:09 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 22:54 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-18 12:16 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-18 17:26 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-18 16:50 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-19 10:17 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-19 10:40 +0000
        Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-15 19:53 +0000
          Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 22:17 +0100
            Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-16 09:59 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 13:02 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-18 16:10 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-19 15:10 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-20 10:24 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-20 12:09 +0000

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