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Re: <noscript> problem

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On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:02:58 +0100, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<PointedEars@web.de> wrote:

>John Harris wrote:
>
>> […] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn […] wrote:
>>> John Harris wrote:
>>>> [?] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn [?] wrote:
>>> Kerning has nothing to do with inserting a space character of any kind.
>> 
>> Positive kerning has *everything* to with inserting white space, using
>> whatever technology is available.
>
>Utter nonsense.
>
>>>> As an example, there are books published by Victor Gollancz Ltd, a
>>>> reputable publisher, that have a longer gap in front of ? and !. It
>>>> isn't a space character, but in plain ASCII text there isn't any other
>>>> choice.
>>> Irrelevant evidence
>> 
>> You say *never*; I give an example of *not never*. How can that be
>> irrelevant ?
>
>By your own account, it is not a space character.
  <snip>

Now there's clever. You look at a page of a book, at the gap between
two characters, and confidently assert that the effect was caused by
... . Well, by kerning, or by one of the space characters, or by a
piece of lead (in older books). But lead is (was) used for kerning
(permitted) and also for spaces (forbidden). The lead is like the
famous quantum cat - in two opposite states at the same time. That is,
until the right person observes it.

I didn't say it was not a space character. I said there was a gap.

It should be obvious that the means of achieving that effect is not
important. It's the visible effect that matters.

 
>> No. The author can change the kerning for particular characters when
>> using a desktop publishing tool such as Framemaker or Word 2. (Both
>> have character styles).
>
>Which still has nothing to do with inserting (space) characters.  It has to 
>do with *spacing* *between* (non-whitespace) characters.
>
>What do you mean by “Word 2”?

I mean Microsoft Word for Windows 2. It ran on Win 3.1, and was a word
processor, and still is, now as Word 2013.


>> Incidentally, the Oxford Dictionary of English says that 'orthography'
>> is the 'conventional spelling system of a language'. So does the
>> Cambridge online dictionary.
>
>Spelling is a subset of orthography, of how to write correctly.  So is 
>punctuation, the topic at hand.

The online Encyclopedia Britannica also says orthography means study
of spelling.

It looks as though your extended meaning hadn't gathered sufficient
evidence of use at the time these standard references were last
updated.


>As you are either unwilling or unable to back up your position, to cut this 
>short: You will find in the respective style guides (the “New Oxford Style 
>Manual”, among others) how the English language is (supposed to be) written; 
>it does _not_ include the insertion of white-space before end marks. ?

The Oxford book is said by the publisher to contain advice; you call
it a guide. It is not a law of nature, not an EU Directive, and not a
UK law. It reports today's fashion, which is different from fashion in
the recent past, and will no doubt be different in the future.

And the example I referred to was not an unusual house style. I've
found another well known publisher, Collins, who did the same. It must
have been fashionable in the 1940s.

  John

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<noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 09:17 -0700
  Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-13 16:58 +0000
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 13:15 -0700
      Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-13 22:39 +0200
        Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 17:48 -0700
          Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-14 09:30 -0200
            Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-14 12:07 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-14 10:50 -0200
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-14 15:53 +0100
  Re: <noscript> problem "Christoph M. Becker" <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2015-01-13 18:12 +0100
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 13:19 -0700
  Re: <noscript> problem Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2015-01-13 15:18 -0200
  Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-13 19:30 +0200
    Re: <noscript> problem Erwin Moller <erwinmollerusenet@xs4all.nl> - 2015-01-14 15:19 +0100
      Re: <noscript> problem "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2015-01-14 17:13 +0200
  Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-13 18:48 +0100
    Re: <noscript> problem "Mel Smith" <syntel@cox.net> - 2015-01-13 11:58 -0700
    Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-14 14:47 +0000
      Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 14:49 +0100
        Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 15:31 +0000
          Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 17:30 +0100
            Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 16:38 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 18:31 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-15 17:35 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-15 20:00 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 22:19 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-16 09:23 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 12:23 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-17 20:09 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 22:54 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-18 12:16 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-18 17:26 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-18 16:50 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-19 10:17 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-19 10:40 +0000
        Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-15 19:53 +0000
          Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-15 22:17 +0100
            Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-16 09:59 +0000
              Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-17 13:02 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-18 16:10 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-01-19 15:10 +0100
                Re: <noscript> problem John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2015-01-20 10:24 +0000
                Re: <noscript> problem Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-20 12:09 +0000

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