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programming...?

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  programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 07:38 -0800
    Re: programming...? Jon <jon101011@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-20 17:07 +0100
      Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 08:19 -0800
        Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-20 11:45 -0500
          Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 12:39 -0800
            Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 13:25 -0800
              Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 14:00 -0800
              Re: programming...? Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-02-21 00:31 +0100
              Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-20 19:24 -0500
            Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-20 19:21 -0500
    Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-20 11:41 -0500
    Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-20 19:37 +0000
      Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 12:10 -0800
        Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-20 22:00 +0000
    Re: programming...? Robert Spanjaard <spamtrap@arumes.com> - 2018-02-20 21:09 +0100
      Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 12:16 -0800
        Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-20 22:09 +0000
          Re: programming...? Robert Spanjaard <spamtrap@arumes.com> - 2018-02-21 01:16 +0100
            Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 00:47 +0000
              Re: programming...? Robert Spanjaard <spamtrap@arumes.com> - 2018-02-21 12:29 +0100
                Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 10:42 -0500
                Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 15:44 +0000
                  Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 11:03 -0500
                    Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 08:38 -0800
                      Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 11:54 -0500
                        Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 10:40 -0800
                          Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 14:35 -0500
                            Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 11:48 -0800
                  Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 08:29 -0800
                    Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 11:47 -0500
                    Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 17:35 +0000
                      Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 12:47 -0500
                        Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 10:45 -0800
                          Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 14:40 -0500
                        Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 21:23 +0000
                          Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 21:39 -0500
                            Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-22 09:06 +0000
                              Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-24 20:29 -0500
                                Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-25 02:12 +0000
                                Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-26 08:19 -0800
                                  Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-01 13:17 -0500
                      Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 10:43 -0800
                        Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 21:14 +0000
                          Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 21:35 -0500
                            Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-22 09:10 +0000
                            Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 06:23 -0800
                              Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-22 19:32 -0500

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#38059

On 2/21/2018 6:29 AM, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
> On 21-02-18 01:47, Kiwi User wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 01:16:08 +0100, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
>>> Why would you buy a Pi to learn a general programming language? I can
>>> imagine buying one for specific applications like Android Things, but C
>>> and Python work just as well on his current system, with his favorite
>>> editor.
>>
>> A cheap and quite capable machine to use for finding out about non-MS
>> software. There are a LOT of UNIX/Linux systems out there and a lot of
>> RDBMS that aren't SQL Server. Ditto for web servers.
> 
> So you agree that "to learn C, Python and even assembler", buying a 
> second computer is unneccessary?
> 
> And to try non-MS stuff, he could install Linux on a different partition 
> or even a USB-stick, use a VM, use CygWin, or install the Linux Bash 
> Shell. I'm not familiar with databases, but I can't imagine SQL being 
> the only one available for Windows.

Practically all databases are available for Windows: MS SQLServer,
Oracle DB, IBM DB2, MySQL, PostgreSQL, Sybase ASE, all the Java
ones, various embedded (MS Acces, MS SQLserver CE, FireBiord,
SqLite).

Arne

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#38060

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:29:59 +0100, Robert Spanjaard wrote:

> On 21-02-18 01:47, Kiwi User wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 01:16:08 +0100, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Why would you buy a Pi to learn a general programming language? I can
>>> imagine buying one for specific applications like Android Things, but
>>> C and Python work just as well on his current system, with his
>>> favorite editor.
>> 
>> A cheap and quite capable machine to use for finding out about non-MS
>> software. There are a LOT of UNIX/Linux systems out there and a lot of
>> RDBMS that aren't SQL Server. Ditto for web servers.
> 
> So you agree that "to learn C, Python and even assembler", buying a
> second computer is unneccessary?
>
I think there's an element of MS lockin even there: to me, anyway, 
understanding make is an integral part of learning C, but aren't you 
stuck with Visual Studio if you use MS C, to say nothing of their 
revolting 'Hungarian' naming standards. They also used to have a rather 
nonstandard C library as well - is that now POSIX compliant?

>  I'm not familiar with databases, but I can't imagine SQL being
> the only one available for Windows. 
>
Well, SQL Server is essentially a Sybase clone, so if you know one you 
probably can still claim to know the other. Access was horrid and I'm 
told, by people who know, that the equivalent member of the SQL Server 
family is no better and just as orphaned when it comes to DBA tools. Both 
Mysql and MariaDB run in Linux and so does PostgreSQL, so there are 
enough OS-agnostic RDBMS to make the OS question irrelevant.

One point, though. If you need to buy the relevant Windows software to 
learn it or buy a VM in order to run Linux on a Windows box, it could 
well be cheaper to get a RaspberryPi and run it headless.
  

-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38061

On 2/21/2018 10:44 AM, Kiwi User wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:29:59 +0100, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
>> On 21-02-18 01:47, Kiwi User wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 01:16:08 +0100, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
>>>> Why would you buy a Pi to learn a general programming language? I can
>>>> imagine buying one for specific applications like Android Things, but
>>>> C and Python work just as well on his current system, with his
>>>> favorite editor.
>>>
>>> A cheap and quite capable machine to use for finding out about non-MS
>>> software. There are a LOT of UNIX/Linux systems out there and a lot of
>>> RDBMS that aren't SQL Server. Ditto for web servers.
>>
>> So you agree that "to learn C, Python and even assembler", buying a
>> second computer is unneccessary?
>>
> I think there's an element of MS lockin even there: to me, anyway,
> understanding make is an integral part of learning C, but aren't you
> stuck with Visual Studio if you use MS C,

Not necessarily.

A text editor and command line build works fine.

>                                             to say nothing of their
> revolting 'Hungarian' naming standards.

That is entirely up to the programmer.

I think it is common to hungarian for Win32/MFC/COM programming but
use normal standard for less Windows specific code.

>                                         They also used to have a rather
> nonstandard C library as well - is that now POSIX compliant?

It fully supports the C standard.

>>   I'm not familiar with databases, but I can't imagine SQL being
>> the only one available for Windows.
>>
> Well, SQL Server is essentially a Sybase clone, so if you know one you
> probably can still claim to know the other.

MS SQLserver was cloned of Sybase SQLServer in 1989. They separated in
1995. That is 23 years ago. They have diverged quite a bit.

>                                             Access was horrid and I'm
> told, by people who know, that the equivalent member of the SQL Server
> family is no better and just as orphaned when it comes to DBA tools.

The purpose of embedded databases is really to avoid the
need for DBA's, so ...

>                                                                      Both
> Mysql and MariaDB run in Linux and so does PostgreSQL,

And on Windows.

> One point, though. If you need to buy the relevant Windows software to
> learn it or buy a VM in order to run Linux on a Windows box, it could
> well be cheaper to get a RaspberryPi and run it headless.

Pay for what on Windows?

MS SQLServer Express is free
Oracle DB XE is free
IBM DB2 Express is free
MySQL is free
PostgreSQL is free

Arne

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#38063

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 11:03:35 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >                                             Access was horrid and I'm
> > told, by people who know, that the equivalent member of the SQL Server
> > family is no better and just as orphaned when it comes to DBA tools.
> 
> The purpose of embedded databases is really to avoid the
> need for DBA's, so ...

I don't recommend MS Access for anything, but anything we used to do at my current job in Access I can do with my Java API.
I assume a SQL service is usually the most efficient tool available for large volume data.  For small app data if you want to avoid any database setup or administration XML should work as well, not sure how the fancy stuff might transfer (triggering code to run when a record is written?).  The application I currently maintain is still using old keyed files with a new API to manage the reads/writes, not sure how that works under the hood.

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#38065

On 2/21/2018 11:38 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 11:03:35 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>                                              Access was horrid and I'm
>>> told, by people who know, that the equivalent member of the SQL Server
>>> family is no better and just as orphaned when it comes to DBA tools.
>>
>> The purpose of embedded databases is really to avoid the
>> need for DBA's, so ...
> 
> I don't recommend MS Access for anything, but anything we used to do
> at my current job in Access I can do with my Java API.

Access is certainly not Java friendly.

> I assume a SQL service is usually the most efficient tool available
 > for large volume data. For small app data if you want to avoid any
 > database setup or administration XML should work as well, not sure how
 > the fancy stuff might transfer (triggering code to run when a record is
 > written?). The application I currently maintain is still using old keyed
 > files with a new API to manage the reads/writes, not sure how that works
 > under the hood.

Embedded database are quite common in Java: JavaDB, HSQLDB, H2 etc..

Arne

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#38068

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 11:54:46 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> > I don't recommend MS Access for anything, but anything we used to do
> > at my current job in Access I can do with my Java API.
> 
> Access is certainly not Java friendly.
> 
When I said we can do with my Java API, I meant complete rewrite not integrate, although MS does provide a JDBC driver for Access. (not sure about current version Access, our databases were set up on Office 2000)

> 
> Embedded database are quite common in Java: JavaDB, HSQLDB, H2 etc..
> 
> Arne

I wonder how common in business.  The help wanted ads I've found reference SQL like specifically Oracle, don't think I've seen references to those.  I haven't tested anything like that, though I had it on my list to check out MongoDB.

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#38071

On 2/21/2018 1:40 PM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 11:54:46 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> I don't recommend MS Access for anything, but anything we used to do
>>> at my current job in Access I can do with my Java API.
>>
>> Access is certainly not Java friendly.
>>
> When I said we can do with my Java API, I meant complete rewrite not
> integrate, although MS does provide a JDBC driver for Access. (not sure
> about current version Access, our databases were set up on Office 2000)

I believe they provided ODBC driver and SUN provided JDBC ODBC bridge.

But that bridge has been removed from recent Oracle Java versions.

>> Embedded database are quite common in Java: JavaDB, HSQLDB, H2 etc..
> 
> I wonder how common in business. The help wanted ads I've found
> reference SQL like specifically Oracle, don't think I've seen references
> to those. I haven't tested anything like that, though I had it on my
> list to check out MongoDB.

I believe they are used.

But usually not as main database, so they rarely
make it for the job ads.

HSQLDB is used by OpenOffice/LibreOffice.

JavaDB ship with Oracle Java.

Many Java server applications use HSQLDB or H2 for
development and then switch to one of the big databases
for production.

Arne

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#38073

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 2:36:21 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> 
> I believe they provided ODBC driver and SUN provided JDBC ODBC bridge.
> 
> But that bridge has been removed from recent Oracle Java versions.
> 

Oh nevermind, I don't think MS provides JDBC for Access, I was thinking of their JDBC driver for SQL Server.  The MS Access JDBC is at http://jackcess.sourceforge.net/ , or here http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html

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#38062

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 10:44:25 AM UTC-5, Kiwi User wrote:
> > 
> > So you agree that "to learn C, Python and even assembler", buying a
> > second computer is unneccessary?

I don't know any reason you shouldn't want to build and test C, Python, etc code on one machine that is also for anything else ie my personal machine I use for gaming.  The 2 reasons you want separate hardware, or possibly a VM, are to avoid tying up resources (SQL Server requires a process that is always running even when you're not using it?) and to test remote access (a number of things work differently if someone else logs into your machine than if you're connecting to localhost).

> >
> I think there's an element of MS lockin even there: to me, anyway, 
> understanding make is an integral part of learning C, but aren't you 
> stuck with Visual Studio if you use MS C, to say nothing of their 
> revolting 'Hungarian' naming standards. They also used to have a rather 
> nonstandard C library as well - is that now POSIX compliant?
> 

I assume you have to use Visual Studio to edit MS code (anything .Net?) if you need the tools (from code complete, to right click and jump to declaration or find references), otherwise editing files in any text editor should work and there should be a command line statement to compile.

> >  I'm not familiar with databases, but I can't imagine SQL being
> > the only one available for Windows. 
> >
> Well, SQL Server is essentially a Sybase clone, so if you know one you 
> probably can still claim to know the other. Access was horrid and I'm 
> told, by people who know, that the equivalent member of the SQL Server 
> family is no better and just as orphaned when it comes to DBA tools. Both 
> Mysql and MariaDB run in Linux and so does PostgreSQL, so there are 
> enough OS-agnostic RDBMS to make the OS question irrelevant.
> 

I'm not sure how much differences there are between SQL.  Your basic inner join stuff should work anywhere but stuff like Transact-SQL functions have different syntax for different DBs.

> One point, though. If you need to buy the relevant Windows software to 
> learn it or buy a VM in order to run Linux on a Windows box, it could 
> well be cheaper to get a RaspberryPi and run it headless.
>   

I hate having to purchase software to learn it.  We have 3 implementations currently running on 2 servers, one running a MySQL (totally free, not sure the limitations), and one running SQL Server 2014 and a SQL Server 2017 both with purchased licensing.  There's a free SQL Server with limitations which as far as I know does everything you should need for development testing and small personal applications.  I haven't set up a VM lately so I'm not sure if Windows 10 Home has something built in or what VM software runs on it for free.  MS has or had free VM software available for separate download.  For Android testing I have used Bluestacks, not sure about Apple testing in Windows.

For my personal computer I got a GL753VD (http://store.asus.com/us/item/201612AM310000001/ASUS+ROG+Strix+GL753VD-DS71+17.3) and swapped in an MX300 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IAGSD68), which should be enough to run SQL Server and/or a VM or two, but I wouldn't want any of that running while gaming.

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#38064

On 2/21/2018 11:29 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 10:44:25 AM UTC-5, Kiwi User wrote:
>> I think there's an element of MS lockin even there: to me, anyway,
>> understanding make is an integral part of learning C, but aren't you
>> stuck with Visual Studio if you use MS C, to say nothing of their
>> revolting 'Hungarian' naming standards. They also used to have a rather
>> nonstandard C library as well - is that now POSIX compliant?
>>
> 
> I assume you have to use Visual Studio to edit MS code (anything
> .Net?)if you need the tools (from code complete, to right click and
> jump to declaration or find references), otherwise editing files in
> any text editor should work and there should be a command line
> statement to compile.
C/C++:

Visual Studio
Text editor and command line build
Eclipse (yes - it integrated with MSVC++ toolchain)
SharpDevelop

C#:

Visual Studio
Text editor and command line build
SharpDevelop

>>>   I'm not familiar with databases, but I can't imagine SQL being
>>> the only one available for Windows.
>>>
>> Well, SQL Server is essentially a Sybase clone, so if you know one you
>> probably can still claim to know the other. Access was horrid and I'm
>> told, by people who know, that the equivalent member of the SQL Server
>> family is no better and just as orphaned when it comes to DBA tools. Both
>> Mysql and MariaDB run in Linux and so does PostgreSQL, so there are
>> enough OS-agnostic RDBMS to make the OS question irrelevant.
> 
> I'm not sure how much differences there are between SQL.  Your basic
> inner join stuff should work anywhere but stuff like Transact-SQL
> functions have different syntax for different DBs.

Basic SQL is the same.

Many cross-DB API's are available (JDBC, ODBC, OLEDB, PDO etc.).

But:
* extensions to standard SQL
* functions
* SP's and UDF's
* available data types
* management
etc. can vary quite a bit.

Arne

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#38066

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 08:29:55 -0800, Eric Douglas wrote:

> I'm not sure how much differences there are between SQL.
>
Some SQL dialects are more standard than others. PostgeeSQL is often 
mentioned as being closest to the standard while Oracle was/is the most 
deviant dialect.

> Transact-SQL functions have different syntax for different DBs.
> 
I forgot that, mainly because I've almost never used it. Nearest I came 
was DEC's Rdb which used compilable modules that embedded SQL statements 
in a lot of procedural stuff - the combo was the equivalent of the SQL 
package + the JDBC driver.

And you're right: almost every DBMS has its own stored procedure 
language. I was out of that loop by the time a standard for stored 
procedures emerged in 1999 and anyway the specialised data warehouse I 
was using at the time only had an ODBC interface and didn't support 
stored procedures.

> I hate having to purchase software to learn it.  We have 3
> implementations currently running on 2 servers, one running a MySQL
> (totally free, not sure the limitations),
>
I think there's a general opinion that MariaDB, a fork of MySQL, is 
better than its parent. I haven't used either, so don't know whether that 
opinion is due to Oracle owning MySQL, Michael Widenius having baled 
after Oracle bought Sun and started MariaDB, or for some other reason. 
I've not used either. All I know is that RedHat Fedora switched from MySQL 
to MariaDB as its default small DBMS.

At the time I needed to choose an RDBMS MySQL was still much better as a 
searcheable data source than it was as a transactional DB and I prefer 
the PostgreSQL sequence data type to MySQL's autoincrementing integer 
fields, so I went with PostgreSQL on my Fedora systems and have never had 
reason to regret that choice.

> There's a free SQL Server with limitations which as far as I know does
> everything you should need for development testing and small personal 
> applications.
>
That's what I referred to as the Access replacement. Apparently its 
largely incompatible with almost all SQL Server's DBA tools, so I have no 
idea what its like inside - Access with a new coat of paint? 


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38067

On 2/21/2018 12:35 PM, Kiwi User wrote:
>> There's a free SQL Server with limitations which as far as I know does
>> everything you should need for development testing and small personal
>> applications.
>>
> That's what I referred to as the Access replacement. Apparently its
> largely incompatible with almost all SQL Server's DBA tools, so I have no
> idea what its like inside - Access with a new coat of paint?

Don't mix up things.

SQLServer Express is free version of SQLServer with
some limits (10 GB database size, max. 1 CPU,
max. 1 GB RAM). It is intended for developers wanting
to develop against SQLServer. It can be managed by
SQLServer management studio.

SQLServer CE is an embedded database. It is intended
to replace MS Access and to support mobile. Besides the name
it has very little in common with the real SQLServer. And
MS stopped development of it in 2013.

Arne

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#38070

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 12:47:47 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> 
> SQLServer CE is an embedded database. It is intended
> to replace MS Access and to support mobile. Besides the name
> it has very little in common with the real SQLServer. And
> MS stopped development of it in 2013.
> 
> Arne

I don't think I've heard of that.  I would want to check it out...if they have a replacement.  I hate when big business kills software like that.  We used to use ISA until MS killed it.

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#38072

On 2/21/2018 1:45 PM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 12:47:47 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> SQLServer CE is an embedded database. It is intended
>> to replace MS Access and to support mobile. Besides the name
>> it has very little in common with the real SQLServer. And
>> MS stopped development of it in 2013.
> 
> I don't think I've heard of that.  I would want to check it out...if
> they have a replacement.

(note that MS will support the last version until 2021)

I am not aware of any direct replacement.

I know that many have switched to SQLite.

Arne

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#38075

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:47:30 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 2/21/2018 12:35 PM, Kiwi User wrote:
>>> There's a free SQL Server with limitations which as far as I know does
>>> everything you should need for development testing and small personal
>>> applications.
>>>
>> That's what I referred to as the Access replacement. Apparently its
>> largely incompatible with almost all SQL Server's DBA tools, so I have
>> no idea what its like inside - Access with a new coat of paint?
> 
> Don't mix up things.
> 
> SQLServer Express is free version of SQLServer with some limits (10 GB
> database size, max. 1 CPU,
> max. 1 GB RAM). It is intended for developers wanting to develop against
> SQLServer. It can be managed by SQLServer management studio.
> 
> SQLServer CE is an embedded database.
>
I'm not talking about that, but a simpler version of SQL-Server that runs 
on WindowsServer and can be used for web hosting. Don't know its exact 
version name: sorry. I don't maintain it. However, its being used by my 
gliding club to handle bookings and rosters. The application was migrated 
to it from Access when Access support was withdrawn and the club members 
who DO maintain it are quite clear that they have no way to extract a 
schema from it and that Access DBA tools like Jackcess and UCanAccess do 
not work with it.
 

-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38077

On 2/21/2018 4:23 PM, Kiwi User wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:47:30 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> 
>> On 2/21/2018 12:35 PM, Kiwi User wrote:
>>>> There's a free SQL Server with limitations which as far as I know does
>>>> everything you should need for development testing and small personal
>>>> applications.
>>>>
>>> That's what I referred to as the Access replacement. Apparently its
>>> largely incompatible with almost all SQL Server's DBA tools, so I have
>>> no idea what its like inside - Access with a new coat of paint?
>>
>> Don't mix up things.
>>
>> SQLServer Express is free version of SQLServer with some limits (10 GB
>> database size, max. 1 CPU,
>> max. 1 GB RAM). It is intended for developers wanting to develop against
>> SQLServer. It can be managed by SQLServer management studio.
>>
>> SQLServer CE is an embedded database.
>>
> I'm not talking about that, but a simpler version of SQL-Server that runs
> on WindowsServer and can be used for web hosting. Don't know its exact
> version name: sorry. I don't maintain it.

Both of them can be used on Windows for web hosting.

SQLServer Express is most likely.

>                                            However, its being used by my
> gliding club to handle bookings and rosters. The application was migrated
> to it from Access when Access support was withdrawn and the club members
> who DO maintain it are quite clear that they have no way to extract a
> schema from it and that Access DBA tools like Jackcess and UCanAccess do
> not work with it.

Jackcess read the Access MDB file directly. It is hardly surprising that
it does not work with another database (whether it is SQLServer MDF file
or SQLServer CE SDF file).

But of course they can get the schema out - they just need the tool
matching the database.

Arne

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#38078

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:39:18 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> But of course they can get the schema out - they just need the tool
> matching the database.
>
That tool is exactly what I'm being told doesn't exist. No explanation 
offered or description of what tools have been tried.


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38082

On 2/22/2018 4:06 AM, Kiwi User wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:39:18 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> But of course they can get the schema out - they just need the tool
>> matching the database.
>
> That tool is exactly what I'm being told doesn't exist. No explanation
> offered or description of what tools have been tried.

And not even totally clear what the database actually is.

SQLServer Express can be managed via SQLServer Management Studio.

SQLServer CE can no longer be managed via SQLServer Management Studio, 
but supposedly you can do something from Vosual Studio and there are 
third party GUI's availabel too.

In both cases the DIY minded can use INFORMATION_SCHEMA views.

If it is some other database, then who knows.

Arne

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#38083

On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 20:29:40 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 2/22/2018 4:06 AM, Kiwi User wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:39:18 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> But of course they can get the schema out - they just need the tool
>>> matching the database.
>>
>> That tool is exactly what I'm being told doesn't exist. No explanation
>> offered or description of what tools have been tried.
> 
> And not even totally clear what the database actually is.
> 
> SQLServer Express can be managed via SQLServer Management Studio.
> 
> SQLServer CE can no longer be managed via SQLServer Management Studio,
> but supposedly you can do something from Vosual Studio and there are
> third party GUI's availabel too.
> 
> In both cases the DIY minded can use INFORMATION_SCHEMA views.
> 
> If it is some other database, then who knows.
>
Yep: as long as I can get a schema from them and into Mogwai. So far it 
looks quite promising for what I need it to do and, being a Java 
application, will run on almost any machine we might need it on. It looks 
like it was written for Java SE 6 but I have it running happily on 
OpenJava 8.

However, I'd still appreciate recommendations for other data analysis 
tools: it would be nice to find one that can more or less painlessly 
combine data models since we need to get a picture of what data 3-4 
systems actually hold and so produce a data model combining them.
   

-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38084

On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 8:30:08 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> SQLServer Express can be managed via SQLServer Management Studio.
> 
> SQLServer CE can no longer be managed via SQLServer Management Studio, 
> but supposedly you can do something from Vosual Studio and there are 
> third party GUI's availabel too.
> 
> In both cases the DIY minded can use INFORMATION_SCHEMA views.
> 
> If it is some other database, then who knows.
> 
> Arne

Good data modeling tool?  As I recall I couldn't find one for SQL Server.  The one built into MySQL seems decent.

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