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programming...?

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  programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 07:38 -0800
    Re: programming...? Jon <jon101011@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-20 17:07 +0100
      Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 08:19 -0800
        Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-20 11:45 -0500
          Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 12:39 -0800
            Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 13:25 -0800
              Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 14:00 -0800
              Re: programming...? Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-02-21 00:31 +0100
              Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-20 19:24 -0500
            Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-20 19:21 -0500
    Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-20 11:41 -0500
    Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-20 19:37 +0000
      Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 12:10 -0800
        Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-20 22:00 +0000
    Re: programming...? Robert Spanjaard <spamtrap@arumes.com> - 2018-02-20 21:09 +0100
      Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-20 12:16 -0800
        Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-20 22:09 +0000
          Re: programming...? Robert Spanjaard <spamtrap@arumes.com> - 2018-02-21 01:16 +0100
            Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 00:47 +0000
              Re: programming...? Robert Spanjaard <spamtrap@arumes.com> - 2018-02-21 12:29 +0100
                Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 10:42 -0500
                Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 15:44 +0000
                  Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 11:03 -0500
                    Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 08:38 -0800
                      Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 11:54 -0500
                        Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 10:40 -0800
                          Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 14:35 -0500
                            Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 11:48 -0800
                  Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 08:29 -0800
                    Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 11:47 -0500
                    Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 17:35 +0000
                      Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 12:47 -0500
                        Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 10:45 -0800
                          Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 14:40 -0500
                        Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 21:23 +0000
                          Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 21:39 -0500
                            Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-22 09:06 +0000
                              Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-24 20:29 -0500
                                Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-25 02:12 +0000
                                Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-26 08:19 -0800
                                  Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-01 13:17 -0500
                      Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 10:43 -0800
                        Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-21 21:14 +0000
                          Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-21 21:35 -0500
                            Re: programming...? Kiwi User <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-02-22 09:10 +0000
                            Re: programming...? Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 06:23 -0800
                              Re: programming...? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-02-22 19:32 -0500

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#38039 — programming...?

This forum has been a good resource for Java specific technical questions.  Does anyone here know a good resource for more general questions?
such as

What does a help wanted ad mean when they ask for .Net developers?  Is there a language just called .Net, or once you know one you know them all?  Do I need to learn VB.Net? C#? ASP.Net?  All of the above?

I have some 18 years experience in a BASIC language, probably 10 years in Java, and a bit here and there in other languages (started with COBOL/JCL, SQL/SQR, VBscript).  What do I learn next?  PHP? Python? .Net? 

How much tools should I know?  Git? Ant? Maven? Gradle?

Is it important to know Spring or some such framework or would they expect one to learn that on the job?

How much web do I need to know?  HTML5? CSS? jQuery? REST? SOAP? JSON?

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#38040

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 07:38:50 -0800 (PST)
Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> What do I learn next?  PHP?
> Python? .Net? 

I would suggest that you learn C if you don't know it already.

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#38041

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 11:08:24 AM UTC-5, Jon wrote:
> 
> I would suggest that you learn C if you don't know it already.

The original C language? C++? C#?  Is there something secondary to know that every C job ad is asking for?

I search Indeed.com for Java developer, the first 2 ads say web, the third says applications.  This ad says minimum requirements experience in some of: J2EE, SQL, Oracle, EDI, Unix, and agile development... and experience in health care.  How do you even get experience in health care if every job in the industry is looking for someone with the experience?  How much do they really need someone to know about the other technologies?

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#38043

On 2/20/2018 11:19 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> I search Indeed.com for Java developer, the first 2 ads say web, the
> third says applications.  This ad says minimum requirements
> experience in some of: J2EE, SQL, Oracle, EDI, Unix, and agile
> development... and experience in health care.  How do you even get
> experience in health care if every job in the industry is looking for
> someone with the experience?  How much do they really need someone to
> know about the other technologies?

Domain knowledge is always good but for most jobs domain
knowledge is not strictly needed.

If you have the technical skills and a good broad background
in software development, then I say apply.

Arne

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#38048

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 11:45:51 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> > I search Indeed.com for Java developer, the first 2 ads say web, the
> > third says applications.  This ad says minimum requirements
> > experience in some of: J2EE, SQL, Oracle, EDI, Unix, and agile
> > development... and experience in health care.  How do you even get
> > experience in health care if every job in the industry is looking for
> > someone with the experience?  How much do they really need someone to
> > know about the other technologies?
> 
> Domain knowledge is always good but for most jobs domain
> knowledge is not strictly needed.
> 
> If you have the technical skills and a good broad background
> in software development, then I say apply.
> 
> Arne

These people don't ask for much do they?
The next job ad says requirements:
- Experience with Java 1.8, JSP, Struts 2, Apache Tomcat, Ant, JDBC, SQL, HTML, Javascript, XML, CSS, XSLT, Git, VCS, Datbase application development in Oracle 11g or later
- Knowledge/experience of Oracle database, relational databases, and PL/SQL code
- Java middleware/Java EE
- HTML, Javascript, CSS
- Cybersecurity (STIG/OWASP/Security+/CSWF)
- BS in CS
- Secret security clearance
- US citizen

The next one asks for
- Experience in Eclipse IDE and Spring framework
- 4+ years developing web apps using JavaEE, XML, and web services
- 4+ years with J2EE components such as servlets, JSP, EJB, JDBC, Logging mechanism (ex Log4J), transaction management and thread management
- 4+ years writing SQL/Functions/Procedures in transactional database such as Oracle, SQL Server, DB2
- 4+ years knowledge on MVC framework like Spring/Struts/Grails and ORM tools such as Hibernate, MyBatis
- good understanding of developing web services
- good understanding of HTML, UI, CSS, and Javascript
...

I have a 4 year CIS degree and 20 years coding, the last 18 at the same small business on a limited platform, no need for half the stuff companies are asking for.  I feel like I'm very good at what I do yet underqualified for practically everything.

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#38049

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 3:40:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Douglas wrote:
> These people don't ask for much do they?

So many job ads listing a dozen skill sets most people likely don't have...I checked a few more and one common thread is Java ads want someone who knows framework(s) (Spring/Struts/Hibernate/Grails) and web/mobile (J2EE, HTML5, CSS3, Javascript, jQuery, JSON, AJAX, Angular 2, Angular js, PHP, RESTful API, SOAP, JSP, JSF, Servlets, Tomcat)...with a side of Ant/Maven, Git, and jUnit.

This sounds like a lot, most of it web related, makes one want to curse the guy who invented the web.  It seems overwhelming, not sure where to start.  I wonder what that Java Web entry level position pays.

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#38051

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 4:26:18 PM UTC-5, Eric Douglas wrote:
> This sounds like a lot, most of it web related, makes one want to curse the guy who invented the web.  It seems overwhelming, not sure where to start.  I wonder what that Java Web entry level position pays.


That systems analyst position sounds appealing...

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#38053

On 2018-02-20 22:25, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 3:40:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Douglas wrote:
>> These people don't ask for much do they?
> 
> So many job ads listing a dozen skill sets most people likely don't have...I checked a few more and one common thread is Java ads want someone who knows framework(s) (Spring/Struts/Hibernate/Grails) and web/mobile (J2EE, HTML5, CSS3, Javascript, jQuery, JSON, AJAX, Angular 2, Angular js, PHP, RESTful API, SOAP, JSP, JSF, Servlets, Tomcat)...with a side of Ant/Maven, Git, and jUnit.
> 
> This sounds like a lot, most of it web related, makes one want to curse the guy who invented the web.  It seems overwhelming, not sure where to start.  I wonder what that Java Web entry level position pays.
> 

That's about par for the course in my neck of the woods (Western
Europe). Java as a dosh-making tech sits on a server with a big-ass
stack of frameworks, databases, and spaghetti-code holding the whole
thing together. There are low-level hacking positions (I mean in the
sense of how close to the iron the code is, not in the sense of prestige
-- that one is inversely proportional to the former), but they're few in
between and occupied by wizzes who will fight tooth and nail to keep
them (understandably so).

Spring is pretty much a must. Hibernate too, although it gets a bit
eclipsed by the NoSQL fad. Struts/Grails depends on what the app does.
You'll need to know at least one servlet container (Tomcat, Jetty, etc.)
Cursory knowledge of "Web 2.0" techs is required, yes.

Ant is getting old and replaced by Maven/Gradle. Git is spreading like
wildfire, much to my satisfaction. JUnit/TestNG are also things you need
to have at least passing knowledge of (it's not rocket science, although
the rabbit hole can go deep).

That being said:
 a) Ads are more often than not written by HR drones, and thus
front-loaded with buzzwords. As a rule, I'd apply if I "know" at least
one or two things in each category of tech they mention (the folks you
end up face-to-face with usually don't expect more).
 b) There are many tasks and roles around that tall application stack I
mentioned. E.g. if you work on the business logic or the back-end,
you'll likely never touch presentation, and vice-versa (unless it's a
really small, one or two-man shop).

Good luck.

-- 
DF.

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#38056

On 2/20/2018 4:25 PM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 3:40:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Douglas
> wrote:
>> These people don't ask for much do they?
> 
> So many job ads listing a dozen skill sets most people likely don't
> have...I checked a few more and one common thread is Java ads want
> someone who knows framework(s) (Spring/Struts/Hibernate/Grails) and
> web/mobile (J2EE, HTML5, CSS3, Javascript, jQuery, JSON, AJAX,
> Angular 2, Angular js, PHP, RESTful API, SOAP, JSP, JSF, Servlets,
> Tomcat)...with a side of Ant/Maven, Git, and jUnit.
> 
> This sounds like a lot, most of it web related, makes one want to
> curse the guy who invented the web.  It seems overwhelming, not sure
> where to start.

A very large portion of Java application has web-based front-ends.

Knowing a little bit about web is definitely a good thing for
a Java developer (and developers is most other languages as well!).

>                 I wonder what that Java Web entry level position
> pays.

Depends a lot on where in the world the job is.

:-)

Arne

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#38055

On 2/20/2018 3:39 PM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 11:45:51 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> I search Indeed.com for Java developer, the first 2 ads say web, the
>>> third says applications.  This ad says minimum requirements
>>> experience in some of: J2EE, SQL, Oracle, EDI, Unix, and agile
>>> development... and experience in health care.  How do you even get
>>> experience in health care if every job in the industry is looking for
>>> someone with the experience?  How much do they really need someone to
>>> know about the other technologies?
>>
>> Domain knowledge is always good but for most jobs domain
>> knowledge is not strictly needed.
>>
>> If you have the technical skills and a good broad background
>> in software development, then I say apply.
> 
> These people don't ask for much do they?

> The next job ad says requirements:
> - Experience with Java 1.8, JSP, Struts 2, Apache Tomcat, Ant, JDBC, SQL, HTML, Javascript, XML, CSS, XSLT, Git, VCS, Datbase application development in Oracle 11g or later
> - Knowledge/experience of Oracle database, relational databases, and PL/SQL code
> - Java middleware/Java EE
> - HTML, Javascript, CSS
> - Cybersecurity (STIG/OWASP/Security+/CSWF)
> - BS in CS
> - Secret security clearance
> - US citizen
> 
> The next one asks for
> - Experience in Eclipse IDE and Spring framework
> - 4+ years developing web apps using JavaEE, XML, and web services
> - 4+ years with J2EE components such as servlets, JSP, EJB, JDBC, Logging mechanism (ex Log4J), transaction management and thread management
> - 4+ years writing SQL/Functions/Procedures in transactional database such as Oracle, SQL Server, DB2
> - 4+ years knowledge on MVC framework like Spring/Struts/Grails and ORM tools such as Hibernate, MyBatis
> - good understanding of developing web services
> - good understanding of HTML, UI, CSS, and Javascript

> I have a 4 year CIS degree and 20 years coding, the last 18 at the
> same small business on a limited platform, no need for half the stuff
> companies are asking for.  I feel like I'm very good at what I do yet
> underqualified for practically everything.

It depends on how you read these ads.

Do you read them as you need to be an expert in everything, then you may
not be qualified, but very few people will.

If you just take and look at the big picture then it is not so bad.

"Java 1.8, JDBC, XML, XSLT, Spring framework, XML, JDBC, Logging 
mechanism (ex Log4J), thread management, ORM tools such as Hibernate, 
MyBatis"

=> you need to know basic Java programming

"JSP, Struts 2, Apache Tomcat, Java middleware/Java EE, web apps using 
JavaEE, web services, J2EE components such as servlets, JSP, EJB, 
transaction management, MVC framework like Spring/Struts/Grails, web 
services"

=> you need to know something about Java EE technologies

"SQL, Database application development in Oracle 11g or later, Oracle 
database, relational databases, and PL/SQL code, 
SQL/Functions/Procedures in transactional database such as Oracle, SQL 
Server, DB2"

=> you need to know about relational databases


"HTML, Javascript, CSS, HTML, Javascript, CSS, HTML, UI, CSS, and 
Javascript"

=> you need to know about web frontend technology

"Eclipse IDE, Ant, Git, VCS"

=> you need to know about basic Java development tools

Knowing something about each of these 5 categories should not be that
difficult.

Arne

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#38042

On 2/20/2018 10:38 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> What does a help wanted ad mean when they ask for .Net developers?
> Is there a language just called .Net, or once you know one you know
> them all?  Do I need to learn VB.Net? C#? ASP.Net?  All of the
> above?

Mapping:

.NET CLR ~ Java JVM
.NET Framework ~ Java standard library
C# language and VB.NET language ~ Java language
ASP.NET ~ Java EE

> I have some 18 years experience in a BASIC language, probably 10
> years in Java, and a bit here and there in other languages (started
> with COBOL/JCL, SQL/SQR, VBscript).  What do I learn next?  PHP?
> Python? .Net?

PHP, Python and C# are all widely used languages and
knowledge about them is certainly valuable.

Java -> C# is probably the easiest as the languages
are close.

> How much tools should I know?  Git? Ant? Maven? Gradle?

You should know source control and build tools.

SVN and GIT are obvious for source control.

For Java build Ant, Maven and Gradle are all common. But different
platforms use different tools - .NET would use MSBuild (or maybe
NAnt).

> Is it important to know Spring or some such framework or would they
> expect one to learn that on the job?

You should be familiar with:
* DI
* ORM
* web frameworks [if you do web]

In Java DI would usually be Spring or CDI (CDI is Java EE).

In Java ORM would be JPA or Hibernate.

In Java web frameworks would be JSF, SPring.MVC etc..

Again .NET would have different frameworks. Many different for
DI. EF or NHibernate for ORM. ASP.NET Web Forms and ASP.NET MVC for
web framework.

> How much web do I need to know?  HTML5? CSS? jQuery?

If you do web (and most will at some point have to do some web),
then you should know HTML, CSS and JavaScript.

jQuery and one of the high level JavaScript frameworks (Angular,
backbone, knockout etc.) would bring you to the next level
in web frontend development.

> REST? SOAP? JSON?

Everyone should know the basics about those.

JAX-WS and JAX-RS in Java.

WCF or Web API in .NET.

Arne

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#38044

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 07:38:50 -0800, Eric Douglas wrote:

> This forum has been a good resource for Java specific technical
> questions.  Does anyone here know a good resource for more general
> questions?
> such as
> 
> What does a help wanted ad mean when they ask for .Net developers?  Is
> there a language just called .Net, or once you know one you know them
> all?  Do I need to learn VB.Net? C#? ASP.Net?  All of the above?
>
Only needed if you think you're likely to be working in a Microsoft shop, 
in which case you probably also need to know Powershell and the Visual 
Studio IDE.

> I have some 18 years experience in a BASIC language, probably 10 years
> in Java, and a bit here and there in other languages (started with
> COBOL/JCL, SQL/SQR, VBscript).  What do I learn next?  PHP? Python?
> .Net?
>
ANSI C is useful. I'd suggest learning it from "The C Programing 
Language" by Kernighan and Richie, 2nd edition because thats about the 
best written and most enjoyable book about a programming language I've 
seen. Another useful book is "The Practise of Programming by Kernighan 
and Pike. This is about writing readable programs that are easy to 
maintain and debug and, although targeted on C and its derivatives, the 
advise and guidance it contains is applicable to other programming 
languages too.

You probably don't need it except as a refresher, but anybody who's just 
learned their first block structured language should read it: it *will* 
improve their programming style.

> How much tools should I know?  Git? Ant? Maven? Gradle?
> 
If you don't already know them, you should learn and get familiar with 
using a program build tool (ant and make) and a version control system, 
(CVS, or git) and, again, get used to using them. 

Running complex multi-module C compilations without using make is much 
more painful than it should be. Same for ant and Java.

With both of these groups of tools, its easy to pick up a new tool once 
you're familiar with one of them because they all do much the same job in 
much the same way.

If you end up running a development team its useful to know at least one 
bug tracking tool, e.g. Bugzilla. 

> Is it important to know Spring or some such framework or would they
> expect one to learn that on the job?
>
I suppose that much the same advice applies to the various IDEs and 
frameworks - if you know one you're likely to find the same general 
principles apply to another.

> How much web do I need to know?  HTML5? CSS? jQuery? REST? SOAP? JSON?
>
Writing HTML is useful as a basic skill. I like Elisabeth Castro's books: 
well written, can be used to learn from scratch and work well as a 
reference later on. I think the other things you mention can be picked up 
as you need them. Same goes for PHP: I needed to write a couple of small 
programs (I use one to inspect quarantined e-mail spam and the other 
dynamically generates thumbnail photo catalogues from my photo collection 
and displays them on my in-house web server), so I bought the O'Reilly 
book, read it, and wrote the programs I needed.  

One set of skills that IS likely to be useful is to know how to design, 
build, tune and manage relational databases: SQL, interactive SQL query 
tools and how JDBC and ODBC drivers work and can be used to write 
programs that will work with more than one DBMS. I think its also useful 
to understand database design and tuning, which means the basics of data 
analysis, how to normalise a data model and how to tune a database and/or 
SQL queries to optimise its performance. Its amazing how many designers 
and analysts produce bad data models and haven't a clue about improving 
their initial, often bad, performance.


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38046

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-5, Kiwi User wrote:
> ANSI C is useful. I'd suggest learning it from "The C Programing 
> Language" by Kernighan and Richie, 2nd edition because thats about the 
> best written and most enjoyable book about a programming language I've 
> seen. Another useful book is "The Practise of Programming by Kernighan 
> and Pike. This is about writing readable programs that are easy to 
> maintain and debug and, although targeted on C and its derivatives, the 
> advise and guidance it contains is applicable to other programming 
> languages too.
> 

books?  people still read books??  I bought a big book once like 3" thick supposed to have everything you need to know to be a SQL DBA, not sure how many pages I got through.  Just reading was the dry-est thing ever.  I can't imagine learning anything about coding by reading.  Any such reading material would have to have hands on, read it then do something on the computer and see it in action.

I have worked with Goldmine (CRM), quite possibly the ugliest SQL database design ever.  It has tables with record type fields to include multiple definitions for a field of a table.  It has a record link field with split fields, so you can pull half an email address from a field then join the table to itself to get the rest of it from a different field in a different record.  Yeah, fun times.

So still a little fuzzy on things like inner join versus outer join and exactly how and when to do them, and not much experience with things like create table, alter table, but I've done a fair amount of SQL queries and performance tuning.  Mostly my current job has data in files we access through a custom data server with custom objects, so we don't need much for queries but I've done my fair share of data modeling and normalization.

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#38050

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:10:27 -0800, Eric Douglas wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-5, Kiwi User wrote:
>> ANSI C is useful. I'd suggest learning it from "The C Programing
>> Language" by Kernighan and Richie, 2nd edition because thats about the
>> best written and most enjoyable book about a programming language I've
>> seen. Another useful book is "The Practise of Programming by Kernighan
>> and Pike. This is about writing readable programs that are easy to
>> maintain and debug and, although targeted on C and its derivatives, the
>> advise and guidance it contains is applicable to other programming
>> languages too.
>> 
>> 
> books?  people still read books??
>
Yep. I started professional programming (ICL mainframes in assembler and 
COBOL) in 1968 when books were all there was. You may well prefer to use 
a screen but I still find a well written reference book much quicker to 
use than a screen. I would use an eBook if I could find one with four 
displays arranged like two pages, so it can display the contents page, 
two facing pages of text and the index at once.

> I bought a big book once like 3" thick supposed to have everything you 
> need to know to be a SQL DBA, not sure how many pages I got through.  
> Just reading was the dry-est thing ever.  I can't imagine learning
> anything about coding by reading.  Any such reading material would have
> to have hands on, read it then do something on the computer and see
> it in action.
>
Just because a book is thick doesn't mean its any good - in fact its 
sheer thickness may well mean that the author can't write and his
editor was an incompetent idiot.

The C book I recommended is a little over A5 size, 13mm thick and 272 
pages including a good index.

> I have worked with Goldmine (CRM), quite possibly the ugliest SQL
> database design ever.  It has tables with record type fields to include
> multiple definitions for a field of a table.  It has a record link field
> with split fields, so you can pull half an email address from a field
> then join the table to itself to get the rest of it from a different
> field in a different record.  Yeah, fun times.
> 
Never seen anything that bad. The best database design tools I've seen 
have all come from Embacadero. I'm currently checking out Mogwai for use 
when we start to rationalise my gliding club's accounting and management 
systems. So far looks fairly good. Its FOSS, written in Java, draws a 
decent ERD and reverse engineered my e-mail archive database in a flash 
(lots of data but not many tables) 

SquirrelSQL is also pretty for what it does, another Java tool, but it 
isn't a database design tool, more a fancy tool for doing DBA maintenance 
type stuff and interactively developing complex SQL queries. 

> So still a little fuzzy on things like inner join versus outer join and
> exactly how and when to do them, and not much experience with things
> like create table, alter table, but I've done a fair amount of SQL
> queries and performance tuning.
>
I initially learnt by using IDMS, a network Codasyl database, which is 
where I picked up data analysys and normalisation, and later migrated 
then knowledge to RDBMS, with help from reading stuff written by C J 
Date, one of the SQL pioneers and a pretty good author. 

The rest I picked up by doing, which included rationalising horrid Access 
schemas developed by people who had no clue and then wondered why their 
DB was slow, and designing and then optimising star schema data 
warehouses, so its good to know that at least a few others have come up 
along similar routes.
  

-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38045

On 20-02-18 16:38, Eric Douglas wrote:
> This forum has been a good resource for Java specific technical questions.  Does anyone here know a good resource for more general questions?

Not that I know of. I can't imagine such a place existing without it turning 
into an advocacy hell anyway.

> such as
> 
> What does a help wanted ad mean when they ask for .Net developers?  Is there a language just called .Net, or once you know one you know them all?  Do I need to learn VB.Net? C#? ASP.Net?  All of the above?
> 
> I have some 18 years experience in a BASIC language, probably 10 years in Java, and a bit here and there in other languages (started with COBOL/JCL, SQL/SQR, VBscript).  What do I learn next?  PHP? Python? .Net?
> 
> How much tools should I know?  Git? Ant? Maven? Gradle?
> 
> Is it important to know Spring or some such framework or would they expect one to learn that on the job?
> 
> How much web do I need to know?  HTML5? CSS? jQuery? REST? SOAP? JSON?

Have you tried programming for modern devices yet? Smartphones, tablets?
Any experience with assembler?

Both would be a good way to broaden your horizon.


-- 
Robert Spanjaard

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#38047

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 3:10:00 PM UTC-5, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
> On 20-02-18 16:38, Eric Douglas wrote:
> > This forum has been a good resource for Java specific technical questions.  Does anyone here know a good resource for more general questions?
> 
> Not that I know of. I can't imagine such a place existing without it turning 
> into an advocacy hell anyway.
> 
You mean people would just be suggesting to use their favorite language whether it's the most appropriate tool for the job or not?  All I could find around here are forums that end up as adspace for developer jobs.  An unbiased answer space would be best.  I just want to know about what tools area businesses are using and why.

> > 
> > How much web do I need to know?  HTML5? CSS? jQuery? REST? SOAP? JSON?
> 
> Have you tried programming for modern devices yet? Smartphones, tablets?
> Any experience with assembler?
> 
> Both would be a good way to broaden your horizon.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Robert Spanjaard

Not precisely, just some basic web page stuff which can literally be viewed on anything.  I saw something about an Angular tool that's supposed to write for mobile devices, haven't really gotten into it.

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#38052

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:16:11 -0800, Eric Douglas wrote:

> Not precisely, just some basic web page stuff which can literally be
> viewed on anything.  I saw something about an Angular tool that's
> supposed to write for mobile devices, haven't really gotten into it.
>
You could do a lot worse than buying a RaspberryPi model B 2 or 3  for 
$35 and using it to learn C, Python and even assembler. The only extras 
are a 2.1 amp USB wall wart + cable and a lump of CAT5 cable to connect 
it to your home LAN or PC. Or use a wifi dongle if your house doesn't 
have ethernet cabling. This lets you run it headless from your PC's 
screen,keyboard and mouse. Windows box? Install PuTTY, a FOSS SSH client 
that acts as a terminal and file transfer agent.


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38054

On 20-02-18 23:09, Kiwi User wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:16:11 -0800, Eric Douglas wrote:
> 
>> Not precisely, just some basic web page stuff which can literally be
>> viewed on anything.  I saw something about an Angular tool that's
>> supposed to write for mobile devices, haven't really gotten into it.
>>
> You could do a lot worse than buying a RaspberryPi model B 2 or 3  for
> $35 and using it to learn C, Python and even assembler. The only extras
> are a 2.1 amp USB wall wart + cable and a lump of CAT5 cable to connect
> it to your home LAN or PC. Or use a wifi dongle if your house doesn't
> have ethernet cabling. This lets you run it headless from your PC's
> screen,keyboard and mouse. Windows box? Install PuTTY, a FOSS SSH client
> that acts as a terminal and file transfer agent.

Why would you buy a Pi to learn a general programming language? I can 
imagine buying one for specific applications like Android Things, but C and 
Python work just as well on his current system, with his favorite editor.


-- 
Robert Spanjaard

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#38057

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 01:16:08 +0100, Robert Spanjaard wrote:

> 
> Why would you buy a Pi to learn a general programming language? I can
> imagine buying one for specific applications like Android Things, but C
> and Python work just as well on his current system, with his favorite
> editor.

A cheap and quite capable machine to use for finding out about non-MS 
software. There are a LOT of UNIX/Linux systems out there and a lot of 
RDBMS that aren't SQL Server. Ditto for web servers.


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38058

On 21-02-18 01:47, Kiwi User wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 01:16:08 +0100, Robert Spanjaard wrote:
> 
>>
>> Why would you buy a Pi to learn a general programming language? I can
>> imagine buying one for specific applications like Android Things, but C
>> and Python work just as well on his current system, with his favorite
>> editor.
> 
> A cheap and quite capable machine to use for finding out about non-MS
> software. There are a LOT of UNIX/Linux systems out there and a lot of
> RDBMS that aren't SQL Server. Ditto for web servers.

So you agree that "to learn C, Python and even assembler", buying a second 
computer is unneccessary?

And to try non-MS stuff, he could install Linux on a different partition or 
even a USB-stick, use a VM, use CygWin, or install the Linux Bash Shell. I'm 
not familiar with databases, but I can't imagine SQL being the only one 
available for Windows.

-- 
Robert Spanjaard

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