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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what?

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  Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-08 13:17 -0500
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-08 16:07 -0800
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-08 22:04 -0500
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-12-09 07:19 +0000
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-12-11 18:57 +0000
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-11 17:57 -0800
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 17:23 -0500
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-12-11 21:35 -0500
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-12 00:37 -0600
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-12 13:24 -0600
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 17:25 -0500

#26777 — Re: Teaching Java, teaching what?

On 12/08/2013 11:00 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>    Many Java classes and Java books teach Java foundations and
>    then Java OOP to finally be able to show how Swing can be
>    used to create programs that look like beginners expect
>    programs to look like, i.e., they do not write some text to
>    an old-fashioned text console, but run as a GUI windows.
>
>    But then, I hear everywhere: »Java on the Desktop is dead.«.
>    Now I asked myself: Is it wrong to teach how to write Java
>    desktop applications in a class (using Swing)? After all,
>    you do not want to waste the time of the students by
>    teaching them something that is »dead«?
>
It would be wrong to accept a student whose educational objective
misaligned with your syllabus. Are you seeking reassurance?

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#26788

On 12/8/2013 11:12 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> It would be wrong to accept a student whose educational objective
>> misaligned with your syllabus.
>
>    There is no fixed syllabus. The school for adult students
>
>    I do not choose students, instead it's the other way round:

Do students ever return and tell you what they thought of their class? 
What was their feedback?  Do you consult with the employers of those 
students to find what they want?

Both of these strike me as better ideas than asking us.  Personally, 
it's been so long since I learned both Java and especially my first 
programming language, I wouldn't trust myself to give advice to anyone 
starting out today without knowing some context.

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#26790

On 12/08/2013 02:12 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> It would be wrong to accept a student whose educational objective
>> misaligned with your syllabus.
>
>    There is no fixed syllabus. The school for adult students
>    just asks me to give a »Java class«, the details of the
>    syllabus are left to me. Every year I am trying anew to
>    write a good syllabus for my Java class that should be
>    aligned with as much student's educational objective's as
>    possible and also reflect what I deem to be important to
>    learn about Java. I am at liberty to include or exclude Swing.
>
>    I do not choose students, instead it's the other way round:

>    If my syllabus and the student's educational objectives are
>    misaligned too much, the student will not visit my class.
>
The student visited my class.

Therefore my syllabus and the student's
educational objectives are not misaligned too much.

Good job!

My bet is that Swing will be a part of the JDK and JRE
for a long time. Yes, beginners expect to see windows.
With a current JDK what are the GUI alternatives?
Are you comfortable with teaching all of the alternatives?
So far it seems harder to pop up a dialog in JavaFX than Swing.
But then I don't yet have much experience with JavaFX.
If the adult students are learning to program for their
own enjoyment, then teach what you are most comfortable with.
They will explore the alternatives on their own once they
get over the hump. If it is vocational training then teach
what they are required to know.

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#26795

Stefan Ram wrote:

>  There is no fixed syllabus. The school for adult students
>  just asks me to give a »Java class«, the details of the
>  syllabus are left to me. Every year I am trying anew to
>  write a good syllabus for my Java class that should be
>  aligned with as much student's educational objective's as
>  possible and also reflect what I deem to be important to
>  learn about Java. I am at liberty to include or exclude Swing.

Have you considered teaching Android programming (in Java) instead of "desktop" 
programming ?

    -- chris 

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#26838

Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> writes:
> > Have you considered teaching Android programming (in Java) instead of
> > "desktop" programming ?
>
>  I am offering Android programming as a separate class for
>  students with knowledge of the fundamentals of OO
>  programming in Java. But for a general Java class this might
>  be too special.

Fair enough, but that raises the question that I now think we should have asked 
earlier: /why/ are these students taking your course ?  Is it as a first step 
where most of them expect that they'll take further courses later (or drop out 
completely and never think about programming again) ?  Or do they hope to get 
some kind of handle on how to program for themselves (I.e. make their own apps 
or whatever) and want the course to give them a good start towards being able 
to do that[*] ?  Or do they take it just for interest; say as a way to 
understand computers a bit better without intending to program them in future ? 
Or do they looking for a first step towards becoming a professional programmer 
(note how different this is from they earlier suggestion marked [*]) ?  Or what 
?

IMO, only in the case marked with a [*] does it make much difference how 
relevant Swing is today (or even Java, come to that).

    --chris 

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#26851

On 12/11/2013 3:36 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:

>    Why students attend, I can only guess! The save guess would
>    be: »to learn Java«. They range from college students of
>    computer science, via professional programmers (but in other
>    languages) to hobbyists.

I think is is too broad of a range.  I think you should decide whether 
you want to cater to hobbyists or professionals.  (You could even split 
your class into two, one for each.)  The professional class should 
assume a knowledge of algorithms and programming methodology.  The 
hobbyist course should assume neither.  Trying to split the middle 
ground isn't going to serve either group.

>    Actually, I like this, because it gives students a reason to
>    learn about interfaces and spares them from artificial
>    examples, such as

I think this is fine, as long as you are leading up to it.  I offered 
the idea of templates because I was concerned that you might be trying 
to fit in Swing before it was really needed or useful.  As an example of 
inheritance, interfaces and aggregation, it's great, as long as the 
students are ready for it.

I'm still concerned that you're introducing multi-threading too early, 
but I'll let you address that as well.

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#26905

On 12/11/2013 8:57 PM, markspace wrote:
> On 12/11/2013 3:36 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>
>>    Why students attend, I can only guess! The save guess would
>>    be: »to learn Java«. They range from college students of
>>    computer science, via professional programmers (but in other
>>    languages) to hobbyists.
>
> I think is is too broad of a range.  I think you should decide whether
> you want to cater to hobbyists or professionals.  (You could even split
> your class into two, one for each.)

He may not have a choice.

It sounds like "public service" courses funded not only
by participants but also by city/region/state/country.

And the possibilities for changing content and splitting
participants may be very limited.

Arne

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#26853

On 12/11/2013 6:36 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> writes:
>> earlier: /why/ are these students taking your course ?  Is it as a first step
>
>    Why students attend, I can only guess! The save guess would
>    be: »to learn Java«. They range from college students of
>    computer science, via professional programmers (but in other
>    languages) to hobbyists.

     Elsethread you wrote

 >>>> [...] I now often have only
 >>>> 30 hours to take students from »no programming experience
 >>>> whatsoever« to »first steps with Swing« [...]

But now you're saying "no programming experience whatsoever" is
really not correct for some of your students, maybe not even
for any of them.  Perhaps you need to develop a more detailed
picture of the audience for which your class is intended, and
then adjust the syllabus accordingly.

     Here in the States there's a popular radio program about
matters automotive: maintenance, buying advice, strange problems,
and so on.  One of the program's pearls of wisdom is that you
should not take your car to a garage that advertises "We Specialize
In All Makes And Models!"  Maybe your hope of doing "We Cater To
Every Level Of Experience And Interest!" has a similar problem ...

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#26855

Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> 
>  So it's alright with me to teach Swing from the technical
>  point of view, I just wanted to know whether it still makes
>  sense from the strategic/political point of view.
>

Oh, in that case I think the answer is a fairly straight-forward
"No, not really." 'Knowledge of Swing' can be useful to have,
particularly for hobbyists, but it's not going to matter much 
on someone's CV.

-- 
Leif Roar Moldskred

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#26863

Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> 
>  Recently I heard people talking about IntelliJ Idea (which
>  is replacing Eclipse in Android development) and Burp
>  (a web Proxy and test suite), both of which I believe to be
>  Swing desktop applications.
> 

Oh, there are certainly active Swing projects still around, 
but while there might be demand for _experienced_ developers
with good knowledge of Swing, there doesn't seem to be much
in the way of (paid) entry-level positions where knowledge of 
Swing would make a difference.

It's not that having "Swing" on one's CV isn't (slightly)
advantageous -- it's just that there are so many other 
things that are much _more_ advantageous, either because
they are more commonly sought or because they're currently
more in fashion. 

-- 
Leif Roar Moldskred

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#26906

On 12/12/2013 1:51 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) writes:
>> Oh, in that case I think the answer is a fairly straight-forward
>> "No, not really." 'Knowledge of Swing' can be useful to have,
>> particularly for hobbyists, but it's not going to matter much
>> on someone's CV.
>
>    Recently I heard people talking about IntelliJ Idea (which
>    is replacing Eclipse in Android development) and Burp
>    (a web Proxy and test suite), both of which I believe to be
>    Swing desktop applications.

Yes.

And there are several other. Like various DB2 admin tools.

But it is still highly exceptional.

Arne

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