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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #4364 > unrolled thread
| Started by | horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2011-05-20 14:43 -0700 |
| Last post | 2011-05-26 16:37 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 90 — 19 participants |
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tools for programming applets horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> - 2011-05-20 14:43 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-21 09:57 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-20 18:27 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> - 2011-05-21 08:56 +0800
Re: tools for programming applets Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-20 21:28 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-22 11:11 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-20 18:31 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> - 2011-05-21 12:15 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-22 11:15 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-22 14:35 +0100
Re: tools for programming applets Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> - 2011-05-22 08:12 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-23 12:26 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-22 20:59 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-22 22:01 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-23 14:17 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-22 23:34 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-23 18:44 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-23 09:13 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-23 10:37 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-24 20:15 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-24 07:04 -0300
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-27 14:14 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-24 08:10 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscape.net> - 2011-05-24 16:09 +0300
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-26 11:35 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscape.net> - 2011-05-27 00:13 +0300
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-27 18:50 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-27 09:55 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-27 11:31 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-28 14:35 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> - 2011-05-28 12:17 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-05-30 03:26 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-06-03 08:19 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-20 18:29 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-20 16:11 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-20 20:12 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> - 2011-05-21 09:10 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-21 12:55 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 05:18 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-22 08:37 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-22 05:58 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-23 12:34 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-22 18:11 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-22 22:06 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-22 20:26 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-22 21:31 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-23 14:14 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 08:31 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-23 12:08 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Silvio <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-06-19 14:43 +0200
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-27 14:13 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-22 17:39 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-22 15:38 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 05:24 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-22 08:41 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-22 05:43 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-22 08:53 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-22 06:15 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 08:38 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-23 12:17 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 05:22 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-24 08:38 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 06:33 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-25 12:06 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 05:54 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-27 00:57 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-26 09:04 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 06:12 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-26 09:28 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> - 2011-05-26 14:47 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-05-26 13:51 +0000
Re: tools for programming applets Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 07:38 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-05-26 15:23 +0000
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-27 14:10 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-27 14:11 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-05-27 14:47 +0000
Re: tools for programming applets Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> - 2011-05-24 10:07 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-23 11:27 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-23 12:23 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 08:50 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-24 14:45 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Andrew Thompson <andrewthommo@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 03:46 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-27 14:12 +1200
Re: tools for programming applets Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-21 09:31 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> - 2011-05-22 08:05 +0800
Re: tools for programming applets horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 05:30 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-22 06:05 -0700
Re: tools for programming applets Silvio <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-05-24 12:30 +0200
Re: tools for programming applets Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-26 14:29 -0400
Re: tools for programming applets Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-05-26 16:37 +0000
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| From | Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 05:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c1ec208f-6694-463b-befc-30d8dd37b7a1@l6g2000vbn.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #4467 |
On 23 Mag, 18:17, Lew <no...@lewscanon.com> wrote: > On 05/23/2011 11:38 AM, horos22 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On May 22, 6:15 am, markspace<-@.> wrote: > >> On 5/22/2011 5:53 AM, Lew wrote: > > >>> I just cannot buy that this is the real reason. > > >> I think it is. There are a couple of tools that let you replace CSS on > >> an HTML page. The page design folks use them to mock up new pages or > >> fix errors before propagating back to the server. > > >> He's just assuming that applets are like HTML. It's a rookie maneuver, > >> nothing more. > > > Mark, > > > I think you get my drift, but I'd raise you one further. Albeit > > insecure, there *should* be a way to replace applets like you would > > replace CSS. It would make things a helluva lot simpler in > > development. This shouldn't be turned on by default, but it should be > > there. > > > BTW there are tons of things that sense for development purposes, that > > make no sense for production deployment. Why this is any different is > > beyond me. > > No, there shouldn't. How would an applet call back to the correct host if you > have it mounted from localhost? Applets are only allowed to get resources > from their own server. > > Your fundamental error in thought is that applets are not at all like CSS. > CSS is a brower-interpreted, client-side phenomenon. Applets are a JVM-run, > server-side phenomenon that just happen to run out of a browser. Big difference. > > Now stop whining about your pathetic thoughts of how things "should" be and > deal with reality as it actually is, or find a profession that doesn't require > rational reasoning. Or write your own technology to compete with applets. > Just stop whining over and over and over and over and over and over about how > you think in your infinite wisdom and genius that things should be different > than they actually are. You'll never get the job done that way. > > It's pathetic. Guys, sorry, but you're completely nuts. Once more I understand why Java has got the reputation of being bloated. We should remember that Java is not necessarily targeted only at big corporations and multi- million projects! The OP asked how to do a certain thing. Telling him how a Fortune 500 company should do it is not going to help him. Besides, I don't think even a Fortune 500 company should clone the whole production server just to test one *applet*! To answer directly to the OP question: there are a few ways you can test your own modified applet against your production server. 1) you can run the applet as a standalone application: either coding (e.g. a JFrame to contain it) or using something like Oracle's AppletViewer. This is feasible only if the applet does not interact with the surrounding page. 2) signed applets can bypass security restrictions. So you can run your (signed) applet on a page loaded from localhost and still connect to the remote server. Or, if you *really* need the applet to run on the production page itself, you can probably use something like Greasemonkey to patch (your client-local version of) the page to include the applet. Needless to say, the latter option could be a violation of the site's terms of use, and it's unnecessarily cumbersome, so avoid it unless it's the only option left. To everyone else: applets *are* client-side. Really, I can't imagine why you think otherwise. Yes, they are downloaded from a server; so what? Most software nowadays is downloaded from somewhere the first time. But they run on the client, and only talk to the server via remoting, RPC, SOAP or whatever else. Or do you really believe that e.g. Flash is server-side? Sorry for being a little aggressive, but I can't really understand why there are ~50 posts sponsoring the big costly solution and ~0 suggesting the practical one. Cheers, Alessio
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| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 08:38 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <irg8qq$a96$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #4528 |
Alessio Stalla wrote: > Guys, sorry, but you're completely nuts. Once more I understand why > Java has got the reputation of being bloated. We should remember that > Java is not necessarily targeted only at big corporations and multi- > million projects! The OP asked how to do a certain thing. Telling him > how a Fortune 500 company should do it is not going to help him. > Besides, I don't think even a Fortune 500 company should clone the > whole production server just to test one *applet*! Huh? "Fortune 500 company"? Where's your head, dude? It takes twenty minutes and about 50c worth of disk space to clone the server. I do it all the time at home in my practice work. That's one individual person, not even a company, let alone a Fortune 500 company. Get real. > To answer directly to the OP question: there are a few ways you can > test your own modified applet against your production server. > 1) you can run the applet as a standalone application: either coding > (e.g. a JFrame to contain it) or using something like Oracle's > AppletViewer. This is feasible only if the applet does not interact > with the surrounding page. Suggested upthread, but only partially useful as not all applet behaviors can be tested this way. > 2) signed applets can bypass security restrictions. So you can run On the localhost, yes. It doesn't change the restrictions on which server they can communicate with. The tutorial explains this: "An applet can communicate with server applications that run on the same host as the applet." <http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/server.html> "Signed applets operate outside the security sandbox and have extensive capabilities to access the client." <http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/security.html> > your (signed) applet on a page loaded from localhost and still connect > to the remote server. Or, if you *really* need the applet to run on > the production page itself, you can probably use something like > Greasemonkey to patch (your client-local version of) the page to > include the applet. Needless to say, the latter option could be a > violation of the site's terms of use, and it's unnecessarily > cumbersome, so avoid it unless it's the only option left. The applet still has to communicate with the server from which is was loaded, and no other. > To everyone else: applets *are* client-side. Really, I can't imagine > why you think otherwise. Yes, they are downloaded from a server; so They are a special component that talks to a special application server, not a client of the web server, as explained upthread. > what? Most software nowadays is downloaded from somewhere the first > time. But they run on the client, and only talk to the server via > remoting, RPC, SOAP or whatever else. Or do you really believe that > e.g. Flash is server-side? > > Sorry for being a little aggressive, but I can't really understand why > there are ~50 posts sponsoring the big costly solution and ~0 > suggesting the practical one. Because the solution is neither big, nor costly, and is, in fact, much LESS expensive than testing on the production box. Risk has a cost, duh. Talk about how inexpensive development and testing on the production server are when you've brought it to its knees and the client is out of business for a day while you try to undo the damage done by your insane irresponsibility. Why do you guys latch on to this "big, expensive" rhetoric as if there were any merit to it whatsoever? It's been pointed out before that that is false reasoning. What is this, repeat the Big Lie (without evidence or supporting logic) long enough and this intelligent group of software engineers are somehow suddenly going to believe it? -- Lew Honi soit qui mal y pense. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 06:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7be10367-5f4b-4738-a5f5-0b6eb2769dd3@r33g2000prh.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #4531 |
On 24 Mag, 14:38, Lew <no...@lewscanon.com> wrote: > Alessio Stalla wrote: > > Guys, sorry, but you're completely nuts. Once more I understand why > > Java has got the reputation of being bloated. We should remember that > > Java is not necessarily targeted only at big corporations and multi- > > million projects! The OP asked how to do a certain thing. Telling him > > how a Fortune 500 company should do it is not going to help him. > > Besides, I don't think even a Fortune 500 company should clone the > > whole production server just to test one *applet*! > > Huh? "Fortune 500 company"? Where's your head, dude? It takes twenty > minutes and about 50c worth of disk space to clone the server. I do it all > the time at home in my practice work. That's one individual person, not even > a company, let alone a Fortune 500 company. Get real. Well, of course I was exaggerating, but still, how long it takes depends on the server, doesn't it? What if in the OP's case the server is backed by a 1TB database? Even copying just the bits he needs for the test requires identifying those bits, and writing SQL scripts to selectively copy them. In general, it requires detailed knowledge about the server, and - I repeat - that's overkill just to test one applet. > > To answer directly to the OP question: there are a few ways you can > > test your own modified applet against your production server. > > 1) you can run the applet as a standalone application: either coding > > (e.g. a JFrame to contain it) or using something like Oracle's > > AppletViewer. This is feasible only if the applet does not interact > > with the surrounding page. > > Suggested upthread, but only partially useful as not all applet behaviors can > be tested this way. True. The OP will decide if the behaviors he can test this way are those that interest him or not. > > 2) signed applets can bypass security restrictions. So you can run > > On the localhost, yes. It doesn't change the restrictions on which server they > can communicate with. > > The tutorial explains this: > > "An applet can communicate with server applications that run on the same host > as the applet." > <http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/server.html> > > "Signed applets operate outside the security sandbox and have extensive > capabilities to access the client." > <http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/deployment/applet/security...> Not true. You can explicitly grant AllPermissions to your applet, thereby effectively disabling security altogether. Granted, it's a stupid thing to do most of the time, but not in the OP's case. See, e.g., <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/608387/can-signed-applets- connect-with-a-different-host-from-which-they-originate>. > > your (signed) applet on a page loaded from localhost and still connect > > to the remote server. Or, if you *really* need the applet to run on > > the production page itself, you can probably use something like > > Greasemonkey to patch (your client-local version of) the page to > > include the applet. Needless to say, the latter option could be a > > violation of the site's terms of use, and it's unnecessarily > > cumbersome, so avoid it unless it's the only option left. > > The applet still has to communicate with the server from which is was loaded, > and no other. > > > To everyone else: applets *are* client-side. Really, I can't imagine > > why you think otherwise. Yes, they are downloaded from a server; so > > They are a special component that talks to a special application server, not a > client of the web server, as explained upthread. A special component *that runs on the client* and that *can* talk to a special application server, but also to a HTTP server, or to no server at all. How is this different from Flash? Or even JavaScript, except the latter does not require a plugin? > > > what? Most software nowadays is downloaded from somewhere the first > > time. But they run on the client, and only talk to the server via > > remoting, RPC, SOAP or whatever else. Or do you really believe that > > e.g. Flash is server-side? > > > Sorry for being a little aggressive, but I can't really understand why > > there are ~50 posts sponsoring the big costly solution and ~0 > > suggesting the practical one. > > Because the solution is neither big, nor costly, and is, in fact, much LESS > expensive than testing on the production box. How can you possibly know!? The OP said nothing about the production box! It might as well be a cluster of ten high-end machines, as far as we know! > Risk has a cost, duh. Talk > about how inexpensive development and testing on the production server are > when you've brought it to its knees and the client is out of business for a > day while you try to undo the damage done by your insane irresponsibility. You're grossly exaggerating. I don't get why you insist on doing it. > Why do you guys latch on to this "big, expensive" rhetoric as if there were > any merit to it whatsoever? It's been pointed out before that that is false > reasoning. What is this, repeat the Big Lie (without evidence or supporting > logic) long enough and this intelligent group of software engineers are > somehow suddenly going to believe it? From my POV, these lines apply more to you and markspace than to the OP and me. Peace, Alessio
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-25 12:06 +1200 |
| Message-ID | <irhh6f$5vi$3@lust.ihug.co.nz> |
| In reply to | #4534 |
In message <7be10367-5f4b-4738-a5f5-0b6eb2769dd3@r33g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Alessio Stalla wrote: > What if in the OP's case the server is backed by a 1TB database? 1TB drives can be had for pocket change these days. What was the problem, again?
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| From | Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 05:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <884c9970-4a08-4606-8aff-a4b47e945134@q32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #4552 |
On May 25, 2:06 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek- central.gen.new_zealand> wrote: > In message > <7be10367-5f4b-4738-a5f5-0b6eb2769...@r33g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Alessio > > Stalla wrote: > > What if in the OP's case the server is backed by a 1TB database? > > 1TB drives can be had for pocket change these days. > > What was the problem, again? I'm not talking about disk space costs, duh! I'm talking about complexity especially, and also time, bandwidth... you can't duplicate a big DB at a snap of your fingers, and certainly I wouldn't do it *just to test one applet*. Would you duplicate an arbitrarily big web application to test the new version of a Flash app? Is simplicity not a value anymore? -- Alessio
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-27 00:57 +1200 |
| Message-ID | <irlinp$gvl$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> |
| In reply to | #4596 |
In message <884c9970-4a08-4606-8aff-a4b47e945134@q32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Alessio Stalla wrote: > On May 25, 2:06 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek- > central.gen.new_zealand> wrote: > >> In message >> <7be10367-5f4b-4738-a5f5-0b6eb2769...@r33g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >> Alessio >> >> Stalla wrote: >> > What if in the OP's case the server is backed by a 1TB database? >> >> 1TB drives can be had for pocket change these days. >> >> What was the problem, again? > > I'm not talking about disk space costs, duh! I'm talking about > complexity especially ... Rsync can replicate an entire file structure, no matter how complex. > , and also time, bandwidth... you can't duplicate a big DB at a snap of > your fingers ... Considering how many days this thread has seen such pointless arguments back and forth, you would have finished copying that terabyte database by now.
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| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 09:04 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <irlj37$dgh$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #4597 |
On 05/26/2011 08:57 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > In message > <884c9970-4a08-4606-8aff-a4b47e945134@q32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Alessio > Stalla wrote: > >> On May 25, 2:06 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro<l...@geek- >> central.gen.new_zealand> wrote: >> >>> In message >>> <7be10367-5f4b-4738-a5f5-0b6eb2769...@r33g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >>> Alessio >>> >>> Stalla wrote: >>>> What if in the OP's case the server is backed by a 1TB database? >>> >>> 1TB drives can be had for pocket change these days. >>> >>> What was the problem, again? >> >> I'm not talking about disk space costs, duh! I'm talking about >> complexity especially ... > > Rsync can replicate an entire file structure, no matter how complex. > >> , and also time, bandwidth... you can't duplicate a big DB at a snap of >> your fingers ... > > Considering how many days this thread has seen such pointless arguments back > and forth, you would have finished copying that terabyte database by now. [APPLAUSE] Lawrence, your reasoning is sound and your points are correct on this matter. -- Lew Honi soit qui mal y pense. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 06:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <189c56f0-f2c4-4059-aa3b-11aab6c79c57@j31g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #4598 |
On May 26, 3:04 pm, Lew <no...@lewscanon.com> wrote: > On 05/26/2011 08:57 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > > > > > In message > > <884c9970-4a08-4606-8aff-a4b47e945...@q32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Alessio > > Stalla wrote: > > >> On May 25, 2:06 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro<l...@geek- > >> central.gen.new_zealand> wrote: > > >>> In message > >>> <7be10367-5f4b-4738-a5f5-0b6eb2769...@r33g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, > >>> Alessio > > >>> Stalla wrote: > >>>> What if in the OP's case the server is backed by a 1TB database? > > >>> 1TB drives can be had for pocket change these days. > > >>> What was the problem, again? > > >> I'm not talking about disk space costs, duh! I'm talking about > >> complexity especially ... > > > Rsync can replicate an entire file structure, no matter how complex. > > >> , and also time, bandwidth... you can't duplicate a big DB at a snap of > >> your fingers ... > > > Considering how many days this thread has seen such pointless arguments back > > and forth, you would have finished copying that terabyte database by now. > > [APPLAUSE] > > Lawrence, your reasoning is sound and your points are correct on this matter. Ok, I give up. Maybe I simply see things differently from the majority of Java developers. I just cannot imagine to always have to clone a server in order to test a client. Do you really think that e.g. Google cloned the entire Youtube to develop their HTML5 player?
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| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 09:28 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <irlkgu$gm6$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #4599 |
Alessio Stalla wrote: > Ok, I give up. Appropriate. > Maybe I simply see things differently from the majority of Java developers. I just cannot imagine to always have to clone a > server in order to test a client. Do you really think that e.g. Google > cloned the entire Youtube [sic] to develop their HTML5 player? Irrelevant and false analogy. I conclude that you haven't a valid point if you have to reach like that. You don't get to reframe the point in such a ludicrous straw-man fashion. Well, you have a right to try, but it doesn't change the truth that you are trying to resist. No one suggested that cloning YouTube is necessary to test a browser. We did suggest, correctly, that the applet security mechanism is designed to prevent exactly what the OP requested, that there were good reasons for that, that there were better ways to develop an applet that didn't have a problem with the security restrictions, and that the overhead of setting up a single development workstation with the resources to simulate the OP's production box (a single node, a fact you overlooked in your eagerness to proffer useless rhetoric) was minimal. All those things are true. It is also true that Google does test even large-scale applications on a separate infrastructure from its production servers for exactly the reasons "the majority of Java developers", who actually know what we're talking about. There's a reason why so many people agree with the truth, Alessio Stalla. That makes your not-so-Ciceronian rhetoric work against the point you claim you want to make and in favor of that made by the intelligent majority, Alessio Stalla. -- Lew Honi soit qui mal y pense. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 14:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.28486a5eb82595a0989762@news.justthe.net> |
| In reply to | #4599 |
In article <189c56f0-f2c4-4059-aa3b-11aab6c79c57 @j31g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, Alessio Stalla says... > Ok, I give up. Maybe I simply see things differently from the majority > of Java developers. I just cannot imagine to always have to clone a > server in order to test a client. Do you really think that e.g. Google > cloned the entire Youtube to develop their HTML5 player? Do you think Google didn't already have a development copy of the YouTube site to play with? That's how I do things. I *start* developing on my laptop, or on a staging server, so I don't have to worry about bringing a production website down in flames. Within the past couple days, I mentioned (either here, or on alt.www.webmaster) that my laptop has Apache, IIS, and Jetty installed, along with MySQL. 95% of my work is done using Apache/PHP or Jetty/Java; the other 5% is done using IIS. If I need to work on a site backed by a SQL Server database, I can install SQL Server Express, so I'm covered there too. -- Steve Sobol - Programming/WebDev/IT Support sjsobol@JustThe.net
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 13:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <irllsa$v5a$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #4596 |
On Thu, 26 May 2011 05:54:45 -0700, Alessio Stalla wrote: > I'm not talking about disk space costs, duh! I'm talking about > complexity especially, and also time, bandwidth... you can't duplicate a > big DB at a snap of your fingers, and certainly I wouldn't do it *just > to test one applet*. Would you duplicate an arbitrarily big web > application to test the new version of a Flash app? Is simplicity not a > value anymore? > Any self-respecting project will have a test version of the server on a development box. This will be a fully functional, cutting edge version of the server by definition and will usually only have a small database since most developers generally don't put more data in it than they need to support their test cases. This is the server that should be replicated for client development, not the production one. As a bonus, somebody has probably already needed to replicate it in order to develop the existing client programs, so it may also be easier to install on another development machine. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Alessio Stalla <alessiostalla@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 07:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c5d7245d-b4a6-426a-9cca-2ed3918e0fd2@n11g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #4601 |
On May 26, 3:51 pm, Martin Gregorie <mar...@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote: > On Thu, 26 May 2011 05:54:45 -0700, Alessio Stalla wrote: > > I'm not talking about disk space costs, duh! I'm talking about > > complexity especially, and also time, bandwidth... you can't duplicate a > > big DB at a snap of your fingers, and certainly I wouldn't do it *just > > to test one applet*. Would you duplicate an arbitrarily big web > > application to test the new version of a Flash app? Is simplicity not a > > value anymore? > > Any self-respecting project will have a test version of the server on a > development box. This will be a fully functional, cutting edge version of > the server by definition and will usually only have a small database > since most developers generally don't put more data in it than they need > to support their test cases. > > This is the server that should be replicated for client development, not > the production one. As a bonus, somebody has probably already needed to > replicate it in order to develop the existing client programs, so it may > also be easier to install on another development machine. Oh, some sanity. I agree. Notice that this is different from the advice that was given to the OP. Also, since the OP clearly does not have such a development version of the server available (which is not necessarily his fault), and he hasn't many resources since it's not working for profit, "create a development server first" is not a good answer, in my opinion, when easier alternatives exist (which are not necessarily advisable in other scenarios, of course). I'm not advocating against having a development version of the server! I merely think that it's not an all-or-nothing situation. Alessio
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 15:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <irlr8t$ok$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #4602 |
On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:38:47 -0700, Alessio Stalla wrote: > Oh, some sanity. I agree. Notice that this is different from the advice > that was given to the OP. Also, since the OP clearly does not have such > a development version of the server available > How do you work that out? There may well be one, since I would hope that any net-facing outfit would not be stupid enough to do development on or against the live server. A development server may even be run on the live server hardware if the owning organisation is really strapped for cash, but they'd have to be really poor to be reduced to doing that: the box I run my internal Apache, PostgresQL and mail servers on, a used IBM NetVista, cost all of £100 back in 2004 and by now would be worth less than the cost of hauling it away. However, its not clear whether the OP has asked the right questions to find out if a clonable development server exists and to get hold of a copy if it does. All he has said shows a total unwillingness to even consider doing so. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-27 14:10 +1200 |
| Message-ID | <irn16o$b7q$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> |
| In reply to | #4602 |
In message <c5d7245d-b4a6-426a-9cca-2ed3918e0fd2@n11g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, Alessio Stalla wrote: > ... and he hasn't many resources since it's not working for profit ... How “many resources” do you need? As I pointed out, even a terabyte database doesn’t need expensive hardware to hold it these days.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-27 14:11 +1200 |
| Message-ID | <irn186$b7q$2@lust.ihug.co.nz> |
| In reply to | #4601 |
In message <irllsa$v5a$1@localhost.localdomain>, Martin Gregorie wrote: > Any self-respecting project will have a test version of the server on a > development box. This will be a fully functional, cutting edge version of > the server by definition and will usually only have a small database > since most developers generally don't put more data in it than they need > to support their test cases. True, up to a point. You’ll probably need a full-size database to do performance testing, that kind of thing. And the most basic thing: testing what happens when you run out of space. :)
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-27 14:47 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <irodi5$jk7$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #4629 |
On Fri, 27 May 2011 14:11:18 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > In message <irllsa$v5a$1@localhost.localdomain>, Martin Gregorie wrote: > >> Any self-respecting project will have a test version of the server on a >> development box. This will be a fully functional, cutting edge version >> of the server by definition and will usually only have a small database >> since most developers generally don't put more data in it than they >> need to support their test cases. > > True, up to a point. You’ll probably need a full-size database to do > performance testing, that kind of thing. > True enough, but where I've worked on significant projects, there will be a hierarchy of system versions: - developer: replicated as needed, little more data than is required for unit testing and module regression tests. - integration: used for end-to-end tests, performance testing, etc. Has enough data to allow meaningful performance measurement and realistic database tuning. - acceptance test: used to check that versions that pass integration testing can be installed successfully and that upgrades work without destroying data, etc as well as for user acceptance testing. May also be used for end user training. - the production system. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 10:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.284585b587164603989759@news.justthe.net> |
| In reply to | #4531 |
In article <irg8qq$a96$1@news.albasani.net>, Lew says... > > Alessio Stalla wrote: > > Guys, sorry, but you're completely nuts. Once more I understand why > > Java has got the reputation of being bloated. We should remember that > > Java is not necessarily targeted only at big corporations and multi- > > million projects! The OP asked how to do a certain thing. Telling him > > how a Fortune 500 company should do it is not going to help him. > > Besides, I don't think even a Fortune 500 company should clone the > > whole production server just to test one *applet*! > > Huh? "Fortune 500 company"? Where's your head, dude? It takes twenty > minutes and about 50c worth of disk space to clone the server. I'll raise the bar, Lew... I run Apache, Microsoft IIS and Jetty on my laptop and can duplicate any production environment I need to duplicate. (note: to run the full version of IIS, you need Windows Professional or Windows Home Premium) -- Steve Sobol - Programming/WebDev/IT Support sjsobol@JustThe.net
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| From | markspace <-@.> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-23 11:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ire8vj$dq6$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #4461 |
On 5/23/2011 8:38 AM, horos22 wrote: > I think you get my drift, but I'd raise you one further. Albeit > insecure, there *should* be a way to replace applets like you would > replace CSS. Well, no, I disagree. I'm sorry your on a corner case of development where you're trying to do this on a shoe-string, but I don't think it's practical for Oracle or anyone else to solve all the problems of all the shoe string developers out there. It's just too complicated. It might work in one persons web site but break in all the other shoe string sites out there. It's just not a solvable problem. And I'd still like to hear what development environments you use that allow you to slide things into production servers and production systems with out making an modifications of your own code. I might appreciate being able to use one of those tools some day.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-23 12:23 +1200 |
| Message-ID | <irc9es$58p$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> |
| In reply to | #4410 |
In message <ad83c954-5365-42cf-bbf6-c482d25c7cb3@r35g2000prj.googlegroups.com>, horos22 wrote: > On May 21, 8:38 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek- > central.gen.new_zealand> wrote: > >> In message >> <d9f939a9-fddf-45df-9935-3bef2b11e...@r27g2000prr.googlegroups.com>, >> horos22 wrote: >> >> > You really want me to clone a database, web server, >> > web configuration setup just to test one lousy applet? >> >> Just a quick rsync command. How hard could it be? > > Hm.. a quick rsync comand. Plus: > > 1. an extra box for hosting the server Run it on your development machine. > 2. installs of any centralized tools (mysql, etc) Would all be copied across with the rsync. > 3. copying of production data Again, would be done as part of the rsync. > 4. porting of the server web setup to my client Again, done by the rsync. > 5. the need to reflect any changes that production makes. Rsync again. Did you know rsync is smart? If you run it against a previous copy, it will only transfer the changes. This even applies to incremental changes to large files. How can you compare two large files across a network connection without copying most or all of one to the other side? That was the subject of Andrew Tridgell’s PhD thesis. > 6. Any cross-platform changes necessary in going from linux server to > a microsoft client. Microsoft?? > You've GOT to be kidding me. Microsoft?? No, YOU’RE the one kidding me.
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| From | horos22 <ed.peschko@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-23 08:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3c7d8f50-df8e-4198-a06f-265bd57b9610@s41g2000prb.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #4424 |
> Microsoft?? > > > You've GOT to be kidding me. > > Microsoft?? No, YOU’RE the one kidding me. 95% of the people running your code are running microsoft browsers and microsoft java implementations. Do you *not* test your applet against all of these, especially for gui presentation? Rsync is useless if you aren't running your development client on the same os as the server, or if you are using licensed code anywhere. Ed
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