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Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability

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  Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-08-14 00:20 +0000
    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-13 20:36 -0400
      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-13 20:41 -0400
    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arivald <NOSPAMarivald@interia.pl> - 2013-08-14 08:58 +0200
      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-08-14 11:18 +0200
      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 13:15 -0500
      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-30 10:17 -0800
        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 15:08 -0500
        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 08:34 +1100
          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 17:56 -0500
            Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 10:06 +1100
              Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 18:16 -0500
                Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-30 17:38 -0600
                  Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 18:53 -0500
                  Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-12-31 02:40 +0100
          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-12-31 02:37 +0100
    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-08-14 11:21 +0200
      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-08-14 19:53 +0000
        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-08-14 18:13 -0700
          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-08-15 21:04 +0000
    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-15 08:18 +1000
      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-15 06:46 +0800
        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-15 09:05 +1000
          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-16 16:58 +0800
            Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-16 21:56 -0400
        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-14 19:28 -0400
          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-15 09:48 +1000
            Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-16 17:20 +0800
              Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-16 21:55 -0400
                Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-17 11:26 +0800
                  Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-18 21:33 -0400
                    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-19 19:44 +1000
                      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-19 18:17 +0800
                        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-19 10:52 -0400
                      [OT] Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-19 08:31 -0400
                        Re: [OT] Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-23 17:13 +1000
                      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-19 10:48 -0400
                    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-19 17:56 +0800
                      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-19 10:25 -0400
          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-16 17:06 +0800
            Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-16 19:29 +1000
              Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-16 17:57 +0800
                Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-16 21:16 +1000
                  Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-08-16 18:23 -0300
                    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-08-16 23:22 +0000
                      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-17 10:24 +1000
                        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-17 08:55 +0800
                          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-08-16 18:24 -0700
                        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-08-16 22:59 -0300
                          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-18 21:36 -0400
                            Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-19 18:00 +0800
                              Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-08-19 13:11 +0100
                              Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-19 10:32 -0400
                        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-16 22:09 -0400
                        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-08-17 11:37 +0000
              Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-16 22:07 -0400
            Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-16 22:02 -0400
        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-08-15 21:13 +0000
          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-16 17:13 +0800
            Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-08-16 20:01 +0000
      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-14 18:51 -0400
        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-15 09:07 +1000
          Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-14 19:26 -0400
            Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-15 09:53 +1000
              Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-08-14 18:06 -0700
                Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-15 15:10 +1000
                  Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-15 20:40 -0400
              Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-14 21:23 -0400
                Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-15 15:23 +1000
                  Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-15 20:41 -0400
                    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-16 19:07 +1000
                  Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-15 20:45 -0400
                    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-15 20:49 -0400
                      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-16 19:11 +1000
                        Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-16 22:13 -0400
                      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-16 17:26 +0800
                    Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-16 19:09 +1000
                      Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-16 22:14 -0400
          Please don't discuss the outside world Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-16 17:22 +0800
            Re: Please don't discuss the outside world "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-08-16 20:50 +1000

Page 3 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4  Next page →

#25027

"Richard Maher"  wrote in message news:kukq2v$jfs$1@speranza.aioe.org...

> And up until v2.0 mandate some bollocks proprietary scripting language 
> IIRC?

Yes but that was literally years ago.  JFX 8 is due in early 2014.

> I wish you why but IMnsHO JavaFX was still-born with Silverlight and faces 
> a similar future. Maybe that's why I just saw Larry crying into his beer 
> on CBS about those "evil" Google guys. "Boo whoooo, they can't just copy 
> Java sniff sniff".

No, not still-born at all.  Flash and Silverlight, both of which are 
correctly categorised as dead or dying, do not actually compete with JavaFX 
as they are primarily browser-based and relying on plug-ins.  JavaFX already 
runs on the desktop and in many embedded environments and soon will run on 
iOS and Android.  JavaFX has a very strong future.

> What value does it add except letting a bunch of fat middle-aged Java 
> programmers pretend that modern GUIs and convergence still involves their 
> new-COBOL?

Unfair and way off the mark.  Java is not and never will be the "new COBOL". 
It is still extremely vibrant and evolving; JavaFX in particular.

> I've never had to be number 1. Out of the lime-light much has been 
> happening.

Care to elaborate what has been happening?

> I'd rather use Python, Ruby etc :-)
>
> Too me Applets are for infrastructure the GUI is HTML5, CSS3, and 
> Javascript.

HTML5/JS/CSS3 are for building web pages.  JavaFX is for build applications.

> I think I read today that Google has pulled Microsoft's version of YouTube 
> because it's not HTML5 only?

Well, you mean well I'm sure but Google has done no such thing.  Instead, 
they are making it very difficult for a software vendor who is working on a 
YouTube app for Windows Phone by imposing content licensing restrictions on 
them which they do not apply to similar apps on iOS or Android.  They are 
claiming that they are doing this because the app is not written in HTML5 
(when neither are the apps on iOS or Android) but, really, it's completely 
politically motivated and has no technological basis whatsoever.  And it's 
crucial to see that neither Apple nor Google use HTML5 for their own YouTube 
apps simply because it isn't suitable.

Consider that Google still use Flash for many things like Street View (last 
time I checked at least but I know a BETA is out too that may have moved 
away from this).

HTML5 is MASSIVELY OVER-HYPED!

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#25028

On 8/16/2013 5:29 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Richard Maher"  wrote in message news:kukq2v$jfs$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>
>> And up until v2.0 mandate some bollocks proprietary scripting language
>> IIRC?
>
> Yes but that was literally years ago.  JFX 8 is due in early 2014.

Ah, it's all in the next version, I get it :-)

>
>> I wish you why but IMnsHO JavaFX was still-born with Silverlight and
>> faces a similar future. Maybe that's why I just saw Larry crying into
>> his beer on CBS about those "evil" Google guys. "Boo whoooo, they
>> can't just copy Java sniff sniff".
>
> No, not still-born at all.  Flash and Silverlight, both of which are
> correctly categorised as dead or dying, do not actually compete with
> JavaFX as they are primarily browser-based and relying on plug-ins.
> JavaFX already runs on the desktop and in many embedded environments and
> soon will run on iOS and Android.  JavaFX has a very strong future.

I certainly hope it's stronger than its "6 YEAR" past!
>
>> What value does it add except letting a bunch of fat middle-aged Java
>> programmers pretend that modern GUIs and convergence still involves
>> their new-COBOL?
>
> Unfair and way off the mark.  Java is not and never will be the "new
> COBOL". It is still extremely vibrant and evolving; JavaFX in particular.
>
>> I've never had to be number 1. Out of the lime-light much has been
>> happening.
>
> Care to elaborate what has been happening?
>
>> I'd rather use Python, Ruby etc :-)
>>
>> Too me Applets are for infrastructure the GUI is HTML5, CSS3, and
>> Javascript.
>
> HTML5/JS/CSS3 are for building web pages.

A limitation/designation that you find convenient. Most people see no 
such restriction.

A lot of people also like to break an "Application" up into layers such 
as presentation, business, database or whatever takes your fancy. I 
subscribe to the school of thought that says any claim or mandate for 
Java everywhere in modern RIAs is seriously missing the point, the 
paradigm shift, and ultimately the epoch.

Java, C#, COBOL and SQL is the mutt's nuts on the back-end but a hammer 
isn't the only tool in the box.

>JavaFX is for build
> applications.

I just don't know what we've done without it. Well done with Candy Crush 
BTW.

>
>> I think I read today that Google has pulled Microsoft's version of
>> YouTube because it's not HTML5 only?
>
> Well, you mean well I'm sure but Google has done no such thing.
> Instead, they are making it very difficult for a software vendor who is
> working on a YouTube app for Windows Phone by imposing content licensing
> restrictions on them which they do not apply to similar apps on iOS or
> Android.  They are claiming that they are doing this because the app is
> not written in HTML5 (when neither are the apps on iOS or Android) but,
> really, it's completely politically motivated and has no technological
> basis whatsoever.  And it's crucial to see that neither Apple nor Google
> use HTML5 for their own YouTube apps simply because it isn't suitable.
>
> Consider that Google still use Flash for many things like Street View
> (last time I checked at least but I know a BETA is out too that may have
> moved away from this).
>
> HTML5 is MASSIVELY OVER-HYPED!

Keep chanting that and hugging that blanket :-)

I happen to agree with you (Web Workers are an abomination and Web 
Sockets are a joke that's about as funny as fart in an elevator) but, as 
a bag of tricks, has some wonderful enabling technology.
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

Cheers Richard

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#25030

"Richard Maher"  wrote in message news:kukt2v$r2o$1@speranza.aioe.org...

>> Yes but that was literally years ago.  JFX 8 is due in early 2014.
>
> Ah, it's all in the next version, I get it :-)

No, I never claimed that.  I merely pointed out that JavaFX Script (the name 
you were reaching for) hasn't been in use for years so it's a bit silly to 
criticise JavaFX on the basis of it.

>> No, not still-born at all.  Flash and Silverlight, both of which are
>> correctly categorised as dead or dying, do not actually compete with
>> JavaFX as they are primarily browser-based and relying on plug-ins.
>> JavaFX already runs on the desktop and in many embedded environments and
>> soon will run on iOS and Android.  JavaFX has a very strong future.
>
> I certainly hope it's stronger than its "6 YEAR" past!

Under-handed but fair.  One of my own frustrations is with the very slow 
adoption rate of JavaFX and I think it comes down to the fact that Sun and 
then Oracle got it horribly wrong at first.  Like you alluded to, the first 
release was not even a Java API and to use it you had to learn an entirely 
new language.  Quite frankly, almost nobody wanted to do that even though 
JavaFX Script was a great language and had some innovative features.  Also, 
in its first incarnation it was very limited in the scope of its 
functionality and was quite wrongly marketed as a technology that would 
replace applets by running in the browser and competing with Flash and 
Silverlight.  That was a battle that JavaFX had absolutely no chance of 
winning even if browser plug-in based technologies weren't on the decline 
anyway simply because of a lack of features and, mainly, due to the totally 
inept way that the Java Plugin launched and handled applets.

>> HTML5/JS/CSS3 are for building web pages.
>
> A limitation/designation that you find convenient. Most people see no such 
> restriction.

HTML was designed as way of displaying linked pages of marked-up text and 
even though it has evolved considerably since the '90s, that paradigm is 
still central to its very existence as a technology.  I am yet to see any 
evidence that you can build true desktop-like "applications" that run inside 
a web browser without any plugins.  And even if you could, they would be 
abominations lacking in features such as multi-threading, native API and 
device accessibility and (despite what HTML5/JS fanboys would have you 
believe) would perform like a wounded dog.

> A lot of people also like to break an "Application" up into layers such as 
> presentation, business, database or whatever takes your fancy. I subscribe 
> to the school of thought that says any claim or mandate for Java 
> everywhere in modern RIAs is seriously missing the point, the paradigm 
> shift, and ultimately the epoch.

If you really take an in-depth look at JavaFX and properly evaluate its 
features and performance you may wish to cancel your "subscription" to that 
particular school of thought.

> Java, C#, COBOL and SQL is the mutt's nuts on the back-end but a hammer 
> isn't the only tool in the box.

Well that's one of the real strengths of Java and the JVM in general... it 
really does run in an amazing number of places and on an amazing array of 
hardware platforms and to categorise it as a "back-end" technology is 
seriously missing the point.

>> JavaFX is for build
>> applications.

Of course I meant "building" by the way...

> I just don't know what we've done without it. Well done with Candy Crush 
> BTW.

Sarcasm noted again.  There will be JavaFX apps in the iOS App Store and in 
Google Play within 6-12 months.  That's my prediction and I am sticking to 
it!

>> HTML5 is MASSIVELY OVER-HYPED!
>
> Keep chanting that and hugging that blanket :-)

OK, I am noting that sarcasm again... but seriously Richard, I have never 
ever seen a more hyped technology in my long involvement in IT than HTML5. 
For years absolutely outrageous claims have been made about what it could do 
and the kind of websites (oops, I mean apps) that would be developed with it 
and yet, as I said, I haven't seen anything I would classify as even mildly 
impressive.  Sure, there are some quite fancy Canvas and WebGL demos and 
snippets out there (and I stress *demos* and *snippets*) but where are all 
the real-world, commercial quality, desktop-like large applications that we 
were continually promised and why is everyone still buying desktop 
applications?

> I happen to agree with you (Web Workers are an abomination and Web Sockets 
> are a joke that's about as funny as fart in an elevator) but, as a bag of 
> tricks, has some wonderful enabling technology.

Yes, as I mentioned, if you want to do anything beyond even the most trivial 
multi-threading in a web browser you can forget it.

And... JavaScript is an utterly awful language to attempt to use to develop 
"apps".  It was designed purely as a scripting language to implement a bit 
of navigation logic within web pages and is really not suitable for anything 
more advanced than that.  For productivity and robustness, given me a 
modern, truly OO statically typed language like Java anytime!

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#25035

On 08/16/2013 08:16 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Richard Maher"  wrote in message news:kukt2v$r2o$1@speranza.aioe.org...
[ SNIP ]

>> I happen to agree with you (Web Workers are an abomination and Web
>> Sockets are a joke that's about as funny as fart in an elevator) but,
>> as a bag of tricks, has some wonderful enabling technology.
>
> Yes, as I mentioned, if you want to do anything beyond even the most
> trivial multi-threading in a web browser you can forget it.
>
> And... JavaScript is an utterly awful language to attempt to use to
> develop "apps".  It was designed purely as a scripting language to
> implement a bit of navigation logic within web pages and is really not
> suitable for anything more advanced than that.  For productivity and
> robustness, given me a modern, truly OO statically typed language like
> Java anytime!

Slight quibble. I don't see "truly" and "OO" going together well, since 
OO == "object-oriented", and in many OO languages that "oriented" bit 
really just means "you can write good OO code with the tools 
provided...*if* you want to, or know how to", but that's all it means.

Java - and I'm not dissing Java for this, many other OO languages are 
like this too - let's you write what is essentially procedural code if 
you want to, so I wouldn't use the word "truly".

Javascript - IMHO - is in fact more OO because it's prototype-based, and 
not class-based. I'm not saying that class-based OO is worse than 
prototype-based OO, or vice versa, depends on the programmer and the 
app. But I can't help but think that a language (Javascript not being 
the only one) that dispenses with classes and just works with objects is 
pretty "OO". I think you need to be a better programmer to take 
advantage of prototype-based languages, though (not that most JS 
programmers do).

static vs dynamic...let's dispense with that one. I've never seen any 
strong evidence in my decades of programming that this distinction 
mattered. I have rather more of a problem with implicit type 
conversions, which is a sign of a weakly-typed language, and Java is not 
immune in this regard either.

Again, don't get me wrong: Java is my workhorse language, C# a close 
second. I wouldn't put either on a pedestal, there are quite a few 
others I'd prefer to use for various apps.

> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

AHS
-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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#25036

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 18:23:31 -0300, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

> Slight quibble. I don't see "truly" and "OO" going together well, since
> OO == "object-oriented", and in many OO languages that "oriented" bit
> really just means "you can write good OO code with the tools
> provided...*if* you want to, or know how to", but that's all it means.
>
IM (limited) E this applies especially to C++. I've seen more "C++" 
source which is really just ANSI C with '//' comments than C++ with 
actual class declarations.
  
> Java - and I'm not dissing Java for this, many other OO languages are
> like this too - let's you write what is essentially procedural code if
> you want to, so I wouldn't use the word "truly".
>
Agreed. The observation that "a 'Real Programmer' can write FORTRAN in 
any language" is still true.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#25037

"Martin Gregorie"  wrote in message news:kumc8d$7am$2@dont-email.me...

> Agreed. The observation that "a 'Real Programmer' can write FORTRAN in
> any language" is still true.

I agree with you Martin on this point and also with Arved on the essence of 
his prior post.

Bad programmers will be bad programmers in any language.

I just think I would be far more productive coding in Java than I ever would 
be in JavaScript and not just because of the nature of the languages but 
also because of the tools, editors, IDEs etc. that are more advanced and 
work better with Java.  Also, the Java Platform has such an incredible 
amount of additional useful, mature functionality that I would be 
continually writing from scratch in a pure JavaScript application (or C++ or 
just about any other language for that matter).

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#25038

On 8/17/2013 8:24 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
>
> I just think I would be far more productive coding in Java than I ever
> would be in JavaScript

But that's presumably because you've invested a lot of time and effort 
to develop the knowledge and techniques to make you good at it. 
Knowledge that at least to some degree you're going to have to throw 
away to make room for something more appropriate/useful/popular. Put 
down that security blanket and stop hugging that tree it's not so bad 
outside.

> and not just because of the nature of the
> languages but also because of the tools, editors, IDEs etc. that are
> more advanced and work better with Java.

The same bleating can be heard from VisualStudio people but the Web 
developer support IDEs and Debuggers have really come on in recent years.

> Also, the Java Platform has
> such an incredible amount of additional useful, mature functionality
> that I would be continually writing from scratch in a pure JavaScript
> application (or C++ or just about any other language for that matter).

Unfortunately *Many* out there feel the same way and are compelled to 
include hundreds of MB of JS libraries to achieve the simplest most 
pedestrian of tasks :-( See 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming

And then you'll start longing for "unobtrusive Javascript" so you don't 
have to spend half and hour learning about the DOM and finally search 
out some abortion of a library that "Gives me my classes" by mutating 
JSON :-(

As far as the perils/drawbacks of writing something from scratch, we are 
looking at sorting some Lab location on how close they are to the user 
and foun this: -

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI/Using_geolocation

Maybe the watch event would be easier in PURE Java?

>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

Cheers Richard Maher

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#25039

Richard Maher wrote:
> Qu0ll wrote:
>> I just think I would be far more productive coding in Java than I ever
>> would be in JavaScript
> 
> But that's presumably because you've invested a lot of time and effort 

Presumptuous, yes.

> to develop the knowledge and techniques to make you good at it. 

Not the reason he gave, but possible.

> Knowledge that at least to some degree you're going to have to throw 
> away to make room for something more appropriate/useful/popular. Put 

Why will he have to do that?

> down that security blanket and stop hugging that tree it's not so bad 
> outside.

First of all, what is so wrong about hugging trees?

Nice rhetoric, saying nothing.

>> and not just because of the nature of the
>> languages but also because of the tools, editors, IDEs etc. that are
>> more advanced and work better with Java.

Not the reason you posited.

> The same bleating can be heard from VisualStudio people but the Web 

"bleating"?

> developer support IDEs and Debuggers have really come on in recent years.

>> Also, the Java Platform has
>> such an incredible amount of additional useful, mature functionality
>> that I would be continually writing from scratch in a pure JavaScript
>> application (or C++ or just about any other language for that matter).
> 
> Unfortunately *Many* out there feel the same way and are compelled to 
> include hundreds of MB of JS libraries to achieve the simplest most 

Evidence? Examples?

> pedestrian of tasks :-( See 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming

That defines an idea, but doesn't prove that applies to a criticism of Java.

> And then you'll start longing for "unobtrusive Javascript" so you don't 
> have to spend half and hour learning about the DOM and finally search 
> out some abortion of a library that "Gives me my classes" by mutating 
> JSON :-(

WTF?

> As far as the perils/drawbacks of writing something from scratch, we are 
> looking at sorting some Lab location on how close they are to the user 
> and foun this: -
> 
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI/Using_geolocation
> 
> Maybe the watch event would be easier in PURE Java?

WTF?

And please, 

>> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
>> _________________________________________________
>> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
>> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

don't quote sigs.

You used some rhetoric, but I don't detect a point. Is Java bad in your opinion?

-- 
Lew

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#25042

On 08/16/2013 09:24 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Martin Gregorie"  wrote in message news:kumc8d$7am$2@dont-email.me...
>
>> Agreed. The observation that "a 'Real Programmer' can write FORTRAN in
>> any language" is still true.
>
> I agree with you Martin on this point and also with Arved on the essence
> of his prior post.
>
> Bad programmers will be bad programmers in any language.
>
> I just think I would be far more productive coding in Java than I ever
> would be in JavaScript and not just because of the nature of the
> languages but also because of the tools, editors, IDEs etc. that are
> more advanced and work better with Java.  Also, the Java Platform has
> such an incredible amount of additional useful, mature functionality
> that I would be continually writing from scratch in a pure JavaScript
> application (or C++ or just about any other language for that matter).
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

A programmer is typically more productive if they specialize in just a 
few languages, although I think they should know a lot. There are dozens 
of languages out there that have adequate tools support and good 
libraries, IMO, so that's not really the factor. What it comes down to 
is high proficiency with 2-4 languages.

Last 5 years, for example, most everything I've done was Java and C#. 
Those are my bread and butter. But I was pretty proud of a week-long 
firefighting emergency project I knocked out a week ago that was pure 
Perl, and it was the right tool for the job...although God help me, I 
used vi for the editing. And a couple of years ago I did a bit of C, and 
last year a bit of Scala. I'm talking production work here, not dabbling.

But I saw a guy we brought in beginning of the year buzzsaw his way 
through PHP, and I've seen guys do that with Javascript, and I've seen 
people solve a problem very quickly with F# where it would take me 5x as 
long with the same language. Not because I'm stupid, but I don't have 
the time to learn everything. And you're right, they know the toolsets. 
Where you're wrong is that the toolsets and libraries do exist for 
almost everything you've heard of. Haskell? You need an IDE and build 
system? Get Leksah and the Haskell Platform. J, which is quite obscure? 
Not to worry - very deep tools support. There is good tools support for 
Fortran - I'll make Martin happy by stating that I still write programs 
in it. :-)

And Javascript has that support too. So does C++ - if you're writing 
from scratch in C++ these days you probably didn't look hard enough.

I'm with you, though, on one point - I am simply way more productive in 
Java than in all but 2 or 3 other languages. Not short term, but long 
term. And to no small degree because so many other people know it and 
use it.

Java is a good solid GP language. Note I don't say OO or anything else, 
I think it's a good general purpose language.

AHS

-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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#25053

On 8/16/2013 9:59 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> Java is a good solid GP language. Note I don't say OO or anything else,
> I think it's a good general purpose language.

I would put it this way: unless you have specific reasons to prefer
another language then Java is a good choice.

Arne

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#25056

On 8/19/2013 9:36 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 8/16/2013 9:59 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> Java is a good solid GP language. Note I don't say OO or anything else,
>> I think it's a good general purpose language.
>
> I would put it this way: unless you have specific reasons to prefer
> another language then Java is a good choice.
>
> Arne
>
>
REASON 1:

My customer does not want to be boxed into a corner by extortionate 
contractor rates for legacy skills.

REASON 2:

My customer wants the latest features on a secure platform.

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#25058

On 19/08/13 11:00, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 8/19/2013 9:36 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 8/16/2013 9:59 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>> Java is a good solid GP language. Note I don't say OO or anything else,
>>> I think it's a good general purpose language.
>>
>> I would put it this way: unless you have specific reasons to prefer
>> another language then Java is a good choice.
>>
>> Arne
>>
>>
> REASON 1:
>
> My customer does not want to be boxed into a corner by extortionate
> contractor rates for legacy skills.

I'd hardly call Java 'legacy'

Everything ends up being *legacy*, eventually,  but I don't think Java 
is there just yet.

<snip>

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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#25061

On 8/19/2013 6:00 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 8/19/2013 9:36 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 8/16/2013 9:59 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>> Java is a good solid GP language. Note I don't say OO or anything else,
>>> I think it's a good general purpose language.
>>
>> I would put it this way: unless you have specific reasons to prefer
>> another language then Java is a good choice.
>>
> REASON 1:
>
> My customer does not want to be boxed into a corner by extortionate
> contractor rates for legacy skills.

Neither Java nor Java EE are legacy yet.

Some Java technologies are legacy now: applets, AWT, JSP with scriplets
all over, EJB 1.x and 2.x etc..

More will follow. In 3-5 years then Swing will become legacy.

> REASON 2:
>
> My customer wants the latest features on a secure platform.

Server side code is primarily made secure by software design
not by programming language (Java do protect against buffer
overwrites and forgotten manual memory deallocate, but all
the usual SQL injection, XSS injection, session hijacking etc.
still exists).

Java applets got hit a bit on the actual security and a lot
on the perception of security. Oracle seems to have cleaned up
things now, so public focus may turn to another plugin.

Arne

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#25045

On 8/16/2013 8:24 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Martin Gregorie"  wrote in message news:kumc8d$7am$2@dont-email.me...
>
>> Agreed. The observation that "a 'Real Programmer' can write FORTRAN in
>> any language" is still true.
>
> I agree with you Martin on this point and also with Arved on the essence
> of his prior post.
>
> Bad programmers will be bad programmers in any language.
>
> I just think I would be far more productive coding in Java than I ever
> would be in JavaScript and not just because of the nature of the
> languages but also because of the tools, editors, IDEs etc. that are
> more advanced and work better with Java.  Also, the Java Platform has
> such an incredible amount of additional useful, mature functionality
> that I would be continually writing from scratch in a pure JavaScript
> application (or C++ or just about any other language for that matter).

You can do JS dev in Eclipse and JS runs fine on the JVM.

:-)

Arne

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#25049

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 10:24:19 +1000, Qu0ll wrote:

> I just think I would be far more productive coding in Java than I ever
> would be in JavaScript
>
Same here. I've used a number of scripting languages including awk, Perl, 
BASIC, JEAN (similar to DEC Focus), PHP, Python and bash and have tried 
to use Javascript, which I could not get on with at all. Its 
documentation seemed very poor and I really hated its debugging and 
diagnostic capabilities. All the other languages I mentioned have better 
debugging and diagnostics, with awk, Perl, PHP, Python and bash being 
outstandingly better.

I can develop much faster in awk, PHP and Bash than in the others.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#25044

On 8/16/2013 5:29 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Richard Maher"  wrote in message news:kukq2v$jfs$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>
>> And up until v2.0 mandate some bollocks proprietary scripting language
>> IIRC?
>
> Yes but that was literally years ago.

A year is not that long time in some contexts.

>                                      JFX 8 is due in early 2014.

Note that it is 1->2->8 so the jump is not as big as the version
number jump indicates.

>> I wish you why but IMnsHO JavaFX was still-born with Silverlight and
>> faces a similar future. Maybe that's why I just saw Larry crying into
>> his beer on CBS about those "evil" Google guys. "Boo whoooo, they
>> can't just copy Java sniff sniff".
>
> No, not still-born at all.  Flash and Silverlight, both of which are
> correctly categorised as dead or dying, do not actually compete with
> JavaFX as they are primarily browser-based and relying on plug-ins.
> JavaFX already runs on the desktop and in many embedded environments and
> soon will run on iOS and Android.  JavaFX has a very strong future.

Allow us to be skeptical.

Java GUI has never been a success before - not that likely that JavaFX
will change it.

>> What value does it add except letting a bunch of fat middle-aged Java
>> programmers pretend that modern GUIs and convergence still involves
>> their new-COBOL?
>
> Unfair and way off the mark.  Java is not and never will be the "new
> COBOL". It is still extremely vibrant and evolving; JavaFX in particular.

Eventually it will.

It is not realistic to expect any programming language to stay around
forever as mainstream.

> HTML5 is MASSIVELY OVER-HYPED!

True.

But if the hype drives senior management investment decisions, then ...

Arne

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#25043

On 8/16/2013 5:06 AM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 8/15/2013 7:28 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> JavaFX support FXML, JavaScript and CSS3.
>
> And up until v2.0 mandate some bollocks proprietary scripting language
> IIRC?

JavaFX 1.x used FXScript.

In many ways a very interesting language. The mix of declarative
and imperative style was interesting, the variable bind was interesting
etc..

But with 2.x Oracle chose the more standard path led by Adobe and MS
of a ML and standard language.

>> JavaFX support HTML5, Javascript and CSS3 in embedded browser.
>
> What value does it add except letting a bunch of fat middle-aged Java
> programmers pretend that modern GUIs and convergence still involves
> their new-COBOL?

The ability to reuse web artifacts in a desktop app can be
quite useful.

>> But you can use JavaFX in applets too!
>
> I'd rather use Python, Ruby etc :-)

You can use Python and Ruby in applets.

> Too me Applets are for infrastructure the GUI is HTML5, CSS3, and
> Javascript.

Which is a probably a bit rare, but it does make sense.

Arne

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#25007

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 06:46:02 +0800, Richard Maher wrote:

> 
> Or he could go HTML5, Javascript and CSS3 and save himself the move
> later?
> 
> A mobile browser that supports Applets would be REALLY useful though!
>
That's not particularly useful for at least one of my applications, which 
will be best run as a standalone program because end users will expect to 
run it to display log files they've just downloaded from their IGC flight 
recorders.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#25023

On 8/16/2013 5:13 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 06:46:02 +0800, Richard Maher wrote:
>
>>
>> Or he could go HTML5, Javascript and CSS3 and save himself the move
>> later?
>>
>> A mobile browser that supports Applets would be REALLY useful though!
>>
> That's not particularly useful for at least one of my applications, which
> will be best run as a standalone program because end users will expect to
> run it to display log files they've just downloaded from their IGC flight
> recorders.
>
>
Yeah you're right this part of the thread has gone OT but before I 
change the subject let me ask if you have looked at a pure WebGL, HTML5, 
Javascript, CSS3 solution? (Client side obviously, knock yourself out 
server-side.

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#25033

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:13:24 +0800, Richard Maher wrote:

> On 8/16/2013 5:13 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 06:46:02 +0800, Richard Maher wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Or he could go HTML5, Javascript and CSS3 and save himself the move
>>> later?
>>>
>>> A mobile browser that supports Applets would be REALLY useful though!
>>>
>> That's not particularly useful for at least one of my applications,
>> which will be best run as a standalone program because end users will
>> expect to run it to display log files they've just downloaded from
>> their IGC flight recorders.
>>
>>
> Yeah you're right this part of the thread has gone OT but before I
> change the subject let me ask if you have looked at a pure WebGL, HTML5,
> Javascript, CSS3 solution? (Client side obviously, knock yourself out
> server-side.
>
Not seriously. However, the main reason for that is the complexity of the 
files they'll need to handle. Realistically, the programs need to be 
written in something like C or Java - and Java has fewer portability 
issues for what I want to do.

I've written a set of Java classes to read an IGC log into an ordered 
list (its contents are timestamped records) and allow the records to be 
accessed both randomly and in sequence: this amounts to just under 1486 
lines of code, of which 744 lines (estimated by counting lines with any 
of the characters ;{} in them). In addition it will need to deal with 
waypoint, multi-layer map and airspace files to paint the scene where the 
log is to be displayed. The map and airspace files are quite a lot more 
more complex than the IGC log. The other possible application is simpler: 
it only has to deal with a similarly complex map file together with 
either a realtime GPS feed or a simpler log file format.
  

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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