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Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative?

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Am 03.12.2013 03:07, schrieb markspace:
> On 12/2/2013 12:07 PM, Robert Klemme wrote:
>
>> Still, I don't see any hard reasons that speak against doing real
>> closures.  Maybe it's just the pragmatic way, i.e. not enough resources
>
> Have you read any of the discussion on the lambda-dev list?  Brain Goetz
> was dead-set against "real" closures.  He insisted on several occasions
> that "real" closures were broken and would not have been designed the
> way they were if computer science had known what they know today.
>
> The main issue iirc was that he wanted the lambdas to be immutable.  If
> you go back and modify objects or fields by closing over them, then you
> no longer have an immutable operation.  Whether the risk was thread
> safty and optimization, or programmer misuse, or something else, I don't
> recall off hand, but he was pretty adamant it was a dumb idea.
>

Brian Goetz also takes exception to talk of "real closures". Here's
an excerpt from an interview at

http://www.infoq.com/articles/Brian_Goetz_Project_Lambda_from_the_Inside_Interview

<quote>
InfoQ: Lambdas, Closures, there is some debate about what the difference 
is. What's your perspective?

Brian: I think getting worked up over whether lambdas as expressed in 
Java SE 8 are "real" closures or not is a pretty unconstructive 
activity. To me, the use of the term "real" here should be a syntax 
error; there are many different languages with closure-like constructs, 
with varying degrees of similarity and difference. Declaring that 
language X gets to define what a real closure is and any language that 
doesn't do it exactly that way isn't real is not helpful.

That said, there were hard decisions to make about whether to support 
features like mutable local capture, nonlocal control flow, exception 
transparency, and other features, and having left some of these out 
means certain use cases are harder to express naturally; these are 
tradeoffs between expressiveness and complexity, and we tried to spend 
our complexity budget where it had the most impact for developers. It's 
fair to talk about the pros and cons of each of these decisions, but 
framing this in terms of "real vs fake closures" is not a constructive 
way to have this dialog.
</quote>

-- Sebastian

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Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-25 03:09 -0800
  Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-25 12:46 +0100
    Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-25 05:20 -0800
    Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-25 22:10 +0100
      Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-25 14:34 -0800
      Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-26 08:54 +0100
        Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-26 00:29 -0800
          Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-26 15:29 +0100
            Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-11-26 21:55 -0500
              Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-27 08:59 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-11-27 10:41 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-28 12:48 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-11-28 16:28 -0600
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-29 00:03 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-29 00:41 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-29 12:05 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-29 03:51 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-29 16:44 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-29 16:48 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-02 06:33 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-02 15:50 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-02 16:26 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-02 21:07 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-02 23:33 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-02 18:07 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-03 08:59 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-12-03 00:14 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-03 09:42 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-12-03 02:58 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-12-03 20:55 +0000
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-12-04 00:12 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-14 03:31 -0400
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-12-14 10:11 +0000
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-14 17:39 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-12-14 16:52 +0000
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-14 13:47 -0400
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-14 23:55 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Sebastian <news@seyweiler.dyndns.org> - 2013-12-04 10:39 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-14 03:56 -0400
  Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2013-11-26 21:28 +0000
    Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-26 23:29 +0100
      Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2013-11-27 05:13 +0000
        Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-27 22:57 +0100
          Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2013-11-29 23:22 +0000
            Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-30 14:41 +0100
            Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-11-30 16:49 -0600
        Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-11-27 23:07 -0600
          Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2013-11-28 23:41 +0000
            Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-11-29 00:08 -0600
              Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2013-11-29 16:49 +0000
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-11-30 16:46 -0600
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2014-02-14 15:36 +0000
          Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2013-11-29 23:37 +0000
  Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-11-28 12:50 -0800

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