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Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative?

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On 12/03/2013 04:55 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 02:58:08 -0800, Saxo wrote:
>
>>
>> Yah, but I'm anyway looking forward to using Java8. I think we will
>> start developing with it in my company earliest in 2020 ... No kiding. I
>> guess other places might be similar. You have to convince the architects
>> that lambdas are beneficial while those guys only care about the CTO and
>> would never talk to some developer. Seriously, architects being
>> decoupled from development was the worst mistake in the last 10-15 years
>> in Java development ...
>>
> Decoupling architects from the development process has a much longer
> history than Java: I first ran into sort of mess around 1977 in a COBOL
> shop. Those guys were so decoupled that they trashed their copies of
> design project documents as soon as they'd handed the project over to the
> developers. That way of working didn't work then and doesn't now.
>
> Now add UML to the mix, managers who think that a high level UML
> description of each process is all a developer needs and eliminate all
> feedback to the design team from the devs: the result is most unlikely to
> be a working system. UML is OK if used properly, but its all too easy for
> non-technical managers and designers, who are outside the development
> loop, to convince themselves that once the high-level UML has been
> produced, their job is done. In reality its barely started.
>
>> Sorry for the rant. Couldn't control myself for a little moment ... ;-).
>>
> Ditto.
>
Truth be told, I never heard of software "architects" back in the '70's 
or '80's, it only started showing up as a term in the '90's. Even in the 
'90's I don't recall people describing themselves as architects so much 
as there were folks who started talking about software architecture.

All of a sudden with the original dot com boom we started seeing 
"architects". That's less than 15 years ago. It's been astonishing to me 
how you can actually become an architect with just 5 or 10 years under 
your belt, but apparently that's readily achievable. Given the fact that 
we've got dozens of conferences and dozens of websites where hundreds of 
youngsters with 2-5 years software experience can posture as architects, 
either I'm dated or my standards are too high.

Martin, I gave up on UML several years ago. That and all other graphical 
modeling languages. All of that graphical stuff seriously wastes time - 
competent developers understand text better, and God forbid if managers 
see UML. Plain English, pseudocode, and sketches on paper work a lot better.

There actually is a role for architects. It's just that 95 percent of 
the people who advertise themselves as such couldn't code their way out 
of a piss-soaked paper bag, let alone comprehend a system.

AHS
-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-25 03:09 -0800
  Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-25 12:46 +0100
    Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-25 05:20 -0800
    Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-25 22:10 +0100
      Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-25 14:34 -0800
      Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-26 08:54 +0100
        Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-26 00:29 -0800
          Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-26 15:29 +0100
            Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-11-26 21:55 -0500
              Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-27 08:59 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-11-27 10:41 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-28 12:48 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-11-28 16:28 -0600
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-29 00:03 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-29 00:41 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-29 12:05 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-11-29 03:51 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-29 16:44 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-11-29 16:48 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-02 06:33 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-02 15:50 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-02 16:26 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-02 21:07 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-02 23:33 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-02 18:07 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-03 08:59 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-12-03 00:14 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-03 09:42 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-12-03 02:58 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-12-03 20:55 +0000
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2013-12-04 00:12 -0800
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-14 03:31 -0400
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-12-14 10:11 +0000
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-14 17:39 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-12-14 16:52 +0000
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-14 13:47 -0400
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-14 23:55 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Sebastian <news@seyweiler.dyndns.org> - 2013-12-04 10:39 +0100
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-14 03:56 -0400
  Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2013-11-26 21:28 +0000
    Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-26 23:29 +0100
      Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2013-11-27 05:13 +0000
        Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-27 22:57 +0100
          Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2013-11-29 23:22 +0000
            Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-11-30 14:41 +0100
            Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-11-30 16:49 -0600
        Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-11-27 23:07 -0600
          Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2013-11-28 23:41 +0000
            Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-11-29 00:08 -0600
              Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2013-11-29 16:49 +0000
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-11-30 16:46 -0600
                Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2014-02-14 15:36 +0000
          Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2013-11-29 23:37 +0000
  Re: Alternatives languages on the JVM: which one or is there no alternative? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-11-28 12:50 -0800

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