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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what?

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On 12/10/2013 05:11 PM, Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 09.12.2013 16:06, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> On 12/08/2013 01:30 PM, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
>
>>> Depends on what the class is meant to teach. If the point is
>>> to teach GUI or event-driven programming and the students
>>> already have experience with Java from earlier courses, fair
>>> enough. If the point is to teach general programming or the
>>> Java programming language, I think time and effort could
>>> be invested a lot more wisely than teaching Swing.
>
>> I'll add this: we're talking about teaching _programmers_, not users of
>> an application. Hence the comments about wanting to present a GUI rather
>> than a text console are not really relevant. A working software
>> developer is going to be looking at text console output and log files a
>> lot, and maybe debugger displays...regardless of what the user interface
>> is. So that's what you accustom your students to.
>
> But then again there is the motivational effect: seeing something
> visually in a graphical UI can be much more rewarding than some
> characters on a console - at least for some.  On that grounds I would
> not totally dismiss teaching Swing - even if event based programming or
> user interfaces is not the primary goal of the lesson.  Some care should
> be applied to not focus too much on the Swing side then, e.g. by
> providing some framework or application where learners fill in certain
> parts.
>
> Kind regards
>
>      robert

Robert, others have made that point too, that seeing something visual (a 
GUI) is motivational...as you say, at least for some. I truly don't know 
how important that is, since I've not been a novice for decades. It does 
occur to me that there are plenty of programming languages where you 
would not even remotely contemplate introducing GUIs in a first semester 
course, and students still manage. Java makes it just easy enough to 
introduce a GUI through Swing (AWT before that, for that matter); I tend 
to agree with you that little emphasis should be placed on the Swing 
code itself.

AHS
-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-08 11:30 -0600
  Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-09 11:06 -0400
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-10 22:11 +0100
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-11 14:37 -0400
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 17:19 -0500
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-15 03:58 -0600
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-15 09:57 -0500
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-15 16:34 -0400

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