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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what?

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On 12/14/2013 06:19 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/11/2013 1:37 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> On 12/10/2013 05:11 PM, Robert Klemme wrote:
>>> But then again there is the motivational effect: seeing something
>>> visually in a graphical UI can be much more rewarding than some
>>> characters on a console - at least for some.  On that grounds I would
>>> not totally dismiss teaching Swing - even if event based programming or
>>> user interfaces is not the primary goal of the lesson.  Some care should
>>> be applied to not focus too much on the Swing side then, e.g. by
>>> providing some framework or application where learners fill in certain
>>> parts.
>>
>> Robert, others have made that point too, that seeing something visual (a
>> GUI) is motivational...as you say, at least for some. I truly don't know
>> how important that is, since I've not been a novice for decades. It does
>> occur to me that there are plenty of programming languages where you
>> would not even remotely contemplate introducing GUIs in a first semester
>> course, and students still manage. Java makes it just easy enough to
>> introduce a GUI through Swing (AWT before that, for that matter); I tend
>> to agree with you that little emphasis should be placed on the Swing
>> code itself.
>
> Languages with easy GUI are widely used in basic programming courses:
> Java, C#, PHP.

You'd have to rule out PHP - we've already decided that a web stack is 
out. :-) If you can't do servlets, you can't teach PHP on Apache, for 
example. C# or VB with WinForms in VS is about as simple as it gets - 
far outstripping any Java environment - but I'm not convinced (for the 
same reasons as Swing and Java) that you learn the core language or 
programming concepts any better by having a GUI.

FWIW Python and Perl, among others, still are good for very easily 
creating GUIs. But the same arguments apply.

> The most notably difficult GUI languages are C/C++ and I believe those
> are becoming rare in basic programming courses these days.
>
> Arne
>
Might be a good argument for returning to C or C++ to teach [1]. That 
way you don't bother wasting time with a GUI, and stick to teaching core 
concepts.

AHS

[1] I'm being a bit of a pissant when I recommend C or C++. I think C is 
useful, but I'd never suggest it as a first language. As for C++, I just 
spent the past 6 months re-reading my Scott Meyers "Effective C++" 
books, my Andrei Alexandrescu "Modern C++ Design" book, my Vandevoorde & 
Josuttis "C++ Templates" book, and online sources covering C++11. I 
can't think of a language that I am less likely to recommend to anyone 
than C++...the potential for disaster and productivity stifling is enormous.
-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-08 11:30 -0600
  Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-09 11:06 -0400
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-12-10 22:11 +0100
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-11 14:37 -0400
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 17:19 -0500
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-15 03:58 -0600
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-15 09:57 -0500
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-15 16:34 -0400

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