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OT: Farewell Windows

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  OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 04:28 -0700
    Re: OT: Farewell Windows djc <ciesinger@gmx.net> - 2015-08-07 08:35 -0700
    Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 10:51 -0700
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-07 21:35 +0200
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-07 23:38 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 00:34 +0200
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 15:50 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:09 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:23 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 01:34 +0200
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:46 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 01:52 +0200
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:43 -0700
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 11:32 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-08 14:37 +0000
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 23:04 +0200
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-08-09 09:52 +0100
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 02:04 -0700
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:33 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-08 08:32 -0700
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 22:28 +0200
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-09 04:09 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:52 -0400
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:53 -0700
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-10 01:15 +0200
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 20:46 -0400
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 17:56 -0700
                        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 00:41 +0200
                          Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:44 -0700
                            Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:53 -0700
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-08-09 15:50 -1000
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-09 19:26 -0700
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-10 07:41 +0000
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-10 06:30 -0400
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-10 06:30 -0400
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 05:02 -0700
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:45 -0700
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-11 02:20 -0400
                        Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-08-11 08:30 +0100
                        Re: OT: Farewell Windows "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-08-16 12:59 +1000
                          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-17 00:01 +0200
                            Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-17 18:45 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 23:23 -0700
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 08:35 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-08 00:10 -0700
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 09:52 +0200
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 01:13 -0700
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:45 -0400
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:26 -0700
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-10 01:12 +0200
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:41 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:20 -0700
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-10 00:40 +0200
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 19:49 -0400
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-10 02:09 +0200
                        Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 20:51 -0400
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-08 02:59 -0400
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:38 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 01:51 +0200
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 07:46 +0300
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:49 -0700
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 23:28 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 02:24 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 03:10 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 13:57 +0200
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 05:12 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-11 15:17 +0200
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 08:04 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 22:04 +0200
                  Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 05:42 -0700
                    Re: OT: Farewell Windows Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-08-12 08:33 -0500
                      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 07:21 -0700
                        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 07:47 -0700
                          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:06 -0700
                            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:07 -0700
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 08:07 -0700
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 21:58 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-11 13:11 +0000

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#41154 — OT: Farewell Windows

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/06/microsoft_vacates_moral_high_ground_for_the_data_slurpers_cesspit/

Windows 10? Screw that. No thank-you-very-much.

I'll be switching to Mint when I retire my current laptop. It's
going to be painful, but I'll just have to do it.

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#41163

Am Freitag, 7. August 2015 13:28:35 UTC+2 schrieb Mark Wills:
> I'll be switching to Mint when I retire my current laptop. It's
> going to be painful, but I'll just have to do it.

I had 2 identical laptops, one on Windows, one on Linux. Original idea was to use the Windows laptop for the professional work and the Linux laptop for the private stuff. I bought the pro software for Windows like AutoCAD LT, Photoshop CS2, Visual Studio etc.

In the end, it turned out that I used the Linux laptop for the daily doings - private AND professional - and the Windows laptop for games. Then, the Windows laptop had a defect and Windows self-repair didn't fix that.
That was 3 years ago.

The match to Photoshop was GIMP due to its 4 color CMYK capabilities (I needed that for adverts). The match to AutoCAD LT was QCAD (used in designing the Cornu Spiralhorns). Nothing matches Visual Studio, but emacs and ddd is ok for me.

Everytime, I was unable to get what I needed from Windows, the workflow switched to Linux.

Some nice stuff that runs under Linux:
* Lauterbach
* Enterprise Architect (but eclipse has EMF, which is nice, too)
* Matlab/Simulink (but there is Octave, Scilab and Xcos, just in case)

So, try running Linux and Windows in parallel and see what happens to your workflows.

Daniel

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#41171

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 7:28:35 AM UTC-4, Mark Wills wrote:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/06/microsoft_vacates_moral_high_ground_for_the_data_slurpers_cesspit/
> 
> Windows 10? Screw that. No thank-you-very-much.
> 
> I'll be switching to Mint when I retire my current laptop. It's
> going to be painful, but I'll just have to do it.

Thanks for this interesting link, Mark!

Recently a friend from Australia wrote I should buy a cheap Windows 8 tablet (80$ at Walmart) to run my MSP430-IDE on it. I was stunned when I discovered that I could only get access to this W8 by using a Microsoft Outlook account, so Microsoft gets instantly access to all my data. Your link now confirms my observation.

A special setting which I needed didn't work, because it expected a keyboard, so I didn't further use this tablet. Hard to use it anyway with my big fingers. 

Since a while I have decided to stay with Windows XP. 
I don't have any problems with viruses - I am using "Malwarebytes" - and now I upgraded my laptop from 40GB to 80GB using CloneZilla, which I ordered with the new HDD. 

I have enough spare parts for my laptops, so I don't have to worry for the next ten years or so. 

But there is one thing remaining:
Not everybody is able to use Linux - for me it is way to complicated and too much to learn - so there is a need for a new OS or even a new computer system.

Of course there is the Mac OS, but Apple is abandoning their old customers too, and worse than Microsoft, by making their hardware obsolete.

It is time to design an open computer system which everybody who likes to have one can build it (or buy it), having a modular open source design.
Operating System: Forth, of course, to make software readable and understandable.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#41172

visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:
>> I'll be switching to Mint when I retire my current laptop. It's
>> going to be painful, but I'll just have to do it.

Why is it supposed to be "painful"?  IMHO, Windows is painful, and has been 
for the entire history.  I switched to Linux 20 years ago, Slackware was 
painful to install.  But once that was done, the pain was considderably less 
than Windows 95 - daily pain instead of one-time pain.

The pain of installing a current Linux is far less.  You download an ISO, 
put it on your USB stick (unlike the tool which allows you to put a Windows 
7 or 8 ISO on an USB stick, it actually works), boot from that, and say 
"please install".  It even allows you to resize your Windows partition so 
that you can dual-boot - something I'd recommend for everybody who switches 
over.

The programs you start then are usually available under Windows, too - you 
can surf the web with Chrome or Firefox, you can do image manipulation with 
the GIMP, you can use LibreOffice as office program, all under Windows; if 
you feel comfortable with the programs, switch over to Linux, they are the 
same there.  You can watch DVDs with VLC, many people use that on Windows, 
too, because the Media Center is so bad.

I suppose the "pain" is anticipated, because you are used to 20 years of 
Windows pain.  It's a "devil we know" problem.  You don't want to switch 
away from the devil you know, because you extrapolate that the other thing 
must be a devil, too.

That's why many people stay with C, and never switch to Forth.

My Father is in his mid-70s, and switching from a mainframe (that was his 
job until he retired) to a PC did already hurt him.  Mouse?  Windows?  All 
new concepts.  It hurts when you go that far.

> Since a while I have decided to stay with Windows XP.
> I don't have any problems with viruses - I am using "Malwarebytes" - and
> now I upgraded my laptop from 40GB to 80GB using CloneZilla, which I
> ordered with the new HDD.

Haha, do you really believe that some malware scanner can protect you?  It's 
like if you have no lock to your front door, but you put a talisman above 
it, which will keep all evil from your house, including unwanted guests.

It can well be that nobody will enter despite you have no lock, because 
there's nothing to fetch.  But malware automatically scans for weaknesses, 
and doesn't care if you are not a worthy target.

> But there is one thing remaining:
> Not everybody is able to use Linux - for me it is way to complicated and
> too much to learn - so there is a need for a new OS or even a new computer
> system.

No.  You are requesting a self-contradictionary thing: You don't want to 
learn, so there is *no* need for any new OS or such thing for you.  Because 
your problem is unwillingness to learn.  Every new OS would be different 
from Windows XP in one way or the other, so you would have to learn.  And 
since you have absolutely no clue about how much you need to learn, you 
overestimate the effort, and therefore stay ignorant.  It's therefore 
foolish to offer you anything else than Windows XP - that's the devil you 
know, and you don't want to invest any learning into any other OS.

There are a lot of people like you out there, and for all of those, the only 
market would be to maintain Windows XP forever.

> It is time to design an open computer system which everybody who likes to
> have one can build it (or buy it), having a modular open source design.
> Operating System: Forth, of course, to make software readable and
> understandable.

Well, a readable Forth system certainly would just offer some command line 
terminal interface.  The rest would be just too much for you to read and 
understand.

The unwillingness to learn has two sources: a) too much pain in the past 
with awful systems like Windows, and b) age - learning requires to repair 
cells which just learned (learning is slightly damaging the DNA of the 
involved neurons), and with age, that process is not working well anymore, 
so the neuron cells rather die than learn new things.  That is painful, 
literally, and it is also counter-productive, because the neurons did know 
something before.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#41175

On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 21:35:30 +0200
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:

> 
> The pain of installing a current Linux is far less.  You download an
> ISO, put it on your USB stick (unlike the tool which allows you to
> put a Windows 7 or 8 ISO on an USB stick, it actually works), boot
> from that, and say "please install".  It even allows you to resize
> your Windows partition so that you can dual-boot - something I'd
> recommend for everybody who switches over.

Well, if you have efi partition, you need efi aware distro,
and of course you have to disable secure boot...

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#41176

Melzzzzz wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 21:35:30 +0200
> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> The pain of installing a current Linux is far less.  You download an
>> ISO, put it on your USB stick (unlike the tool which allows you to
>> put a Windows 7 or 8 ISO on an USB stick, it actually works), boot
>> from that, and say "please install".  It even allows you to resize
>> your Windows partition so that you can dual-boot - something I'd
>> recommend for everybody who switches over.
> 
> Well, if you have efi partition, you need efi aware distro,
> and of course you have to disable secure boot...

I run my current OpenSuSE install with "secure boot" enabled (just for fun 
to see if it works - it does)... and EFI-aware has been there for years.

This doesn't apply to people who use Windows XP.  Windows XP is neither EFI-
aware nor does it allow secure boot...

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#41177

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 3:35:33 PM UTC-4, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> visualforth.com wrote:
> >> I'll be switching to Mint when I retire my current laptop. It's
> >> going to be painful, but I'll just have to do it.
> 
> Why is it supposed to be "painful"?  IMHO, Windows is painful, and has been 
> for the entire history.  I switched to Linux 20 years ago, Slackware was 
> painful to install.  But once that was done, the pain was considderably less 
> than Windows 95 - daily pain instead of one-time pain.
> 
> The pain of installing a current Linux is far less.  You download an ISO, 
> put it on your USB stick (unlike the tool which allows you to put a Windows 
> 7 or 8 ISO on an USB stick, it actually works), boot from that, and say 
> "please install".  It even allows you to resize your Windows partition so 
> that you can dual-boot - something I'd recommend for everybody who switches 
> over.
> 
> The programs you start then are usually available under Windows, too - you 
> can surf the web with Chrome or Firefox, you can do image manipulation with 
> the GIMP, you can use LibreOffice as office program, all under Windows; if 
> you feel comfortable with the programs, switch over to Linux, they are the 
> same there.  You can watch DVDs with VLC, many people use that on Windows, 
> too, because the Media Center is so bad.
> 
> I suppose the "pain" is anticipated, because you are used to 20 years of 
> Windows pain.  It's a "devil we know" problem.  You don't want to switch 
> away from the devil you know, because you extrapolate that the other thing 
> must be a devil, too.
> 
> That's why many people stay with C, and never switch to Forth.
> 
> My Father is in his mid-70s, and switching from a mainframe (that was his 
> job until he retired) to a PC did already hurt him.  Mouse?  Windows?  All 
> new concepts.  It hurts when you go that far.
> 
> > Since a while I have decided to stay with Windows XP.
> > I don't have any problems with viruses - I am using "Malwarebytes" - and
> > now I upgraded my laptop from 40GB to 80GB using CloneZilla, which I
> > ordered with the new HDD.
> 
> Haha, do you really believe that some malware scanner can protect you?  It's 
> like if you have no lock to your front door, but you put a talisman above 
> it, which will keep all evil from your house, including unwanted guests.
> 
> It can well be that nobody will enter despite you have no lock, because 
> there's nothing to fetch.  But malware automatically scans for weaknesses, 
> and doesn't care if you are not a worthy target.
> 
> > But there is one thing remaining:
> > Not everybody is able to use Linux - for me it is way to complicated and
> > too much to learn - so there is a need for a new OS or even a new computer
> > system.
> 
> No.  You are requesting a self-contradictionary thing: You don't want to 
> learn, so there is *no* need for any new OS or such thing for you.  Because 
> your problem is unwillingness to learn.  Every new OS would be different 
> from Windows XP in one way or the other, so you would have to learn.  And 
> since you have absolutely no clue about how much you need to learn, you 
> overestimate the effort, and therefore stay ignorant.  It's therefore 
> foolish to offer you anything else than Windows XP - that's the devil you 
> know, and you don't want to invest any learning into any other OS.
> 
> There are a lot of people like you out there, and for all of those, the only 
> market would be to maintain Windows XP forever.
> 
> > It is time to design an open computer system which everybody who likes to
> > have one can build it (or buy it), having a modular open source design.
> > Operating System: Forth, of course, to make software readable and
> > understandable.
> 
> Well, a readable Forth system certainly would just offer some command line 
> terminal interface.  The rest would be just too much for you to read and 
> understand.
> 
> The unwillingness to learn has two sources: a) too much pain in the past 
> with awful systems like Windows, and b) age - learning requires to repair 
> cells which just learned (learning is slightly damaging the DNA of the 
> involved neurons), and with age, that process is not working well anymore, 
> so the neuron cells rather die than learn new things.  That is painful, 
> literally, and it is also counter-productive, because the neurons did know 
> something before.
> 
> -- 
> Bernd Paysan
> "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
> net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
> http://bernd-paysan.de/

I guess you have a bad day today.

This has nothing to do with age, even if I am nearing my eighties. 
I had learning problems all my life.
That's why 65xx is the only assembler I know.
I am sure it's a question of intelligence.
I guess I have 10% of your IQ.

Starting Linux is really easy. 
Most flavors do it without any problem.
Can you explain in a few sentences how to save a file in Linux?
I have checked all available flavors, I didn't find out.
A friend explained it to me, didn't work either.
May be I am the only one with this problem.

Dirk Bruehl
"We are all tolerant as long as the other behaves as expected"

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#41178

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> Can you explain in a few sentences how to save a file in Linux?

Use a program with the ability to save a file.  Direct it to save
the file.  Even if you have no idea how the filesystem is laid out,
you'll be given a reasonable directory to save the file in, as a
suggestion.

If you use the same program that you used in windows, the UI
actions may be identical.


My experience with Windows 10: post-installation, it is awful.
There are several steps that you need to take just to stop the
thing from advertising to you.  There are now two incompatible
'control centers' and both hide from you some of the incomplete
functionality that they have.  I spent about an hour looking
for on/off switches and switching them to 'off'.  In one case
I had to lie to the OS -- claim that my WiFi is a metered
connection -- in order to prevent it from sabotaging my
activities by starting downloads in the background.  There are
several "how much may we spy on you?" settings and not all of
them have 'you may not' as an option.  Probably, several
background services still need to be disabled.

Otherwise, it's not too bad.

-- Julian

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#41179

This could be the end for Microsoft.  I think they've really really screwed up. 

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#41180

On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT)
visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:

> Can you explain in a few sentences how to save a file in Linux?

Ahahahhaha, you are just kidding now ;)

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#41192

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 7:34:28 PM UTC-4, Melzzzzz wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT)
> visualforth.com wrote:
> 
> > Can you explain in a few sentences how to save a file in Linux?
> 
> Ahahahhaha, you are just kidding now ;)

No, I am not.
As Bernd meanwhile admitted: there has to be someone who shows how to do it.
There is nobody over here, and Linux people normally don't have time for trivialities.

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#41184

visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:
> I guess you have a bad day today.
> 
> This has nothing to do with age, even if I am nearing my eighties.

No, that's a recent scientific discovery:

http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/dna-breakage-learning-age-related-damage-0604

> I had learning problems all my life.
> That's why 65xx is the only assembler I know.
> I am sure it's a question of intelligence.

Sure.  The more intelligent you are, the less work it is to learn.  But the 
age still matters.

> I guess I have 10% of your IQ.

Haha, that would be too low to read and write.

> Starting Linux is really easy.
> Most flavors do it without any problem.
> Can you explain in a few sentences how to save a file in Linux?

Kwrite: Click on the File menu and "save" or "save as" - or the disk symbol.  
Kwrite comes with KDE, and is closest to Windows.

> I have checked all available flavors, I didn't find out.

No, you certainly didn't check all 200 available flavors.

> A friend explained it to me, didn't work either.
> May be I am the only one with this problem.

Get someone with Linux experience to sit next to you and go through the 
troubles together.  Especially the selection of a desktop environment that 
is friendly for people who come from Windows.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#41191

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 7:52:01 PM UTC-4, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> visualforth.com wrote:
> > I guess you have a bad day today.
> > 
> > This has nothing to do with age, even if I am nearing my eighties.
> 
> No, that's a recent scientific discovery:
> 
> http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/dna-breakage-learning-age-related-damage-0604
> 

Bernd, this is only one point of view. There are people out there who are not able to learn anything when they are in their thirties, and other people who can learn immensely even when they are more than one hundred years old. This study tells only the possibility, it doesn't tell absolute values - because it can't.

Did you ever think why some people are great with Linux and others are not?
Did you ever think why some people are great with Forth and others are not?
Did you ever think why some people are great with Lisp and others are not?
Not to mention C and the derivatives.

There is other Neuroscience research out there - may be not at the MIT - which points into another, more helpful direction: Neurodiversity.

Neurodiversity is an approach to learning and disability that suggests that diverse neurological conditions appear as a result of normal variations in the human genome.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity

Further reading:
"Thinking Smarter About People Who Think Differently"
http://www.wired.com/2012/04/thinking-smarter-about-people-who-think-differently

Different people have different skills and different Operating Systems, like computers have different Operating Systems. Mathematicians are thinking differently than Musicians, and there are more examples. 
You can only find out when asking and listening.

 Last but not least:
https://www.ted.com/talks/steve_silberman_the_forgotten_history_of_autism

I am well aware about the DNA research. I am working with researchers in this area since four decades when I started my own business developing and manufacturing special devices needed for this research. My first customer was bestowed with the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his research seven years ago.

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#41204

visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:
> Did you ever think why some people are great with Linux and others are
> not? Did you ever think why some people are great with Forth and others
> are not? Did you ever think why some people are great with Lisp and others
> are not? Not to mention C and the derivatives.

Of course, intelligence amplifies your capabilities, and allows you to work 
around limitations.  I don't know what kind of "how to save my file" problem 
you have, because you don't describe your problem in detail.  Of course, if 
you are using a 10 year old computer, it will be too slow for the newest 
user-friendly stuff (Linux programmers also created bloatware in the past 10 
years to fill all available RAM and use all of the CPU ;-).  So you are 
limited to the less user-friendly stuff (lightweight window manager, vi or 
emacs as editor).  In vi, you save a file in command mode with :w <filename> 
and in Emacs with Ctrl-X Ctrl-S.  These editors have a user interface 
"designed" 30 years ago.

The main problem you have is that you use an outdated computer.  This is not 
about "Linux can't save my files", it's about "I can't run a descent Linux 
distribution, because my computer is too old".  Some specialized Linux 
distributions do a good job on old computers, but the mainstream ones are 
for mainstream people, who buy a new computer every few years, because more 
RAM, faster CPU, higher resolution, faster and larger harddisk/SSD is more 
fun than sticking with the same old computer.

> There is other Neuroscience research out there - may be not at the MIT -
> which points into another, more helpful direction: Neurodiversity.
> 
> Neurodiversity is an approach to learning and disability that suggests
> that diverse neurological conditions appear as a result of normal
> variations in the human genome.
> 
> Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity

Of course there are variations.  Autism is a pretty large variation from the 
typical brain, and of course smaller variations exist, too.

> Further reading:
> "Thinking Smarter About People Who Think Differently"
> http://www.wired.com/2012/04/thinking-smarter-about-people-who-think-differently
> 
> Different people have different skills and different Operating Systems,
> like computers have different Operating Systems. Mathematicians are
> thinking differently than Musicians, and there are more examples. You can
> only find out when asking and listening.

I do music and math, languages and programming, and I'm aware that this 
stuff uses different parts of my brain.  However, you are not a musician or 
a lawyer who has trouble with computers, because your thinking is too 
different from the programmed logic, you are an experienced programmer.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#41207

Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> So you are 
>limited to the less user-friendly stuff (lightweight window manager, vi or 
>emacs as editor).  In vi, you save a file in command mode with :w <filename> 
>and in Emacs with Ctrl-X Ctrl-S.  These editors have a user interface 
>"designed" 30 years ago.

Most MacOS (and, cloned from that, Windows) editors have the keyboard
shortcuts designed 32 years ago for the Apple Lisa (in 1987 IBM named
this CUA).  I think that the vi interface is a little older (original
release 1976, 39 years ago), and Emacs probably as well.  The first
Emacs also was released in 1976, so the most basic Emacs interface is
probably from that time.

Anyway, if you want to save a file in a recent GNU emacs running on X,
the keyboard shortcut is still C-x C-s, and I consider it as a
testament to user-friendlyness that the things I learned 26 years ago
still work fine (also in vi).

But you can also use the GUI, click on "File" in the top bar, and get
a drop-down menu that contains "Save" and "Save as" (and also shows
the keyboard shortcuts).  Back to the keyboard, if you prefer CUA
keyboard bindings, you can get them in Emacs with M-x cua-mode, and
there are several vi-compatible modes (Viper Mode, vimmode, Evil).

As for more modern and resource-consuming editors, one that used to be
promoted a lot is Eclipse.  I saw a presentation on Eclipse by one of
the people on the project, and was underwhelmed.  Nothing he showed
really inspired me do play with Eclipse, and when someone in the
audience asked something (that I thought should be easily within
reach), he could not do it.  I later tried it for my programming
course.  I tried to edit and do some simple IDE stuff with a simple
Java program; after not getting anywhere for about 15 minutes, I gave
up, and switched to Netbeans (where I could get the thing to work in
15 minutes).  But I also only used Netbeans for that demonstration and
never again.

As for your theories about the unwillingness to learn, maybe the cost
is becoming higher with age, but I think that's not the decisive
factor.  The decisive factor is the benefit: If somebody does not know
any computer stuff, then learning one OS, one editor, one image
manipulation program, one spreadsheet, one version control system
etc. offers a significant benefit.  If sombody already knows one of
each of those, then switching them incurs a significant cost, and the
benefit is, at first, negative (they take longer with the unfamiliar
program than with the familiar one); it may become positive over time
(the new programs may be better, more stable, or have other benefits),
but for that one has to take the big hurdle at the beginning first.
And switching an OS and all applications makes that hurdle pretty
massive (instead of several smaller hurdles for switching one
application after the other).

As for older computers, Linux typically works better on hardware that
is maybe 1 year old than on the newest hardware, and in my experience
also works well on relatively old hardware, but if you want to install
a modern general-purpose distribution on a 486 (i.e., over 20 years
old hardware), you will be disappointed.  Ten year old stuff should do
fine (except that you should not try to run compositing window
managers on them; they look cool, but unlike Bernd, I don't think that
they contribute to user friendlyness).

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2015: http://www.mpeforth.com/euroforth2015/euroforth2015.htm

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#41216

Anton Ertl wrote:
> As for your theories about the unwillingness to learn, maybe the cost
> is becoming higher with age, but I think that's not the decisive
> factor.

The benefit/cost ratio changes, due to the higher costs.

> The decisive factor is the benefit: If somebody does not know
> any computer stuff, then learning one OS, one editor, one image
> manipulation program, one spreadsheet, one version control system
> etc. offers a significant benefit.  If sombody already knows one of
> each of those, then switching them incurs a significant cost, and the
> benefit is, at first, negative (they take longer with the unfamiliar
> program than with the familiar one); it may become positive over time
> (the new programs may be better, more stable, or have other benefits),
> but for that one has to take the big hurdle at the beginning first.
> And switching an OS and all applications makes that hurdle pretty
> massive (instead of several smaller hurdles for switching one
> application after the other).

Can be a reason.  I'm not convinced that the benefit calculation is done 
fairly.  A lot of people I know work on a computer every day, and they can't 
touch-type.  The cost for learning touch-type are a few weeks for ordinary 
people (it really is easy, and the assumption of "a few weeks" is with half 
an hour training per day), and the benefit is considerably faster typing for 
the entire life.  There is no excuse for not spending these few weeks, yet 
most people seem to calculate the cost/benefit ratio in a way that makes it 
unattractive.

The benefit of learning more than one programming language is that these 
programming languages are quite different, and have different strengths and 
weaknesses.  Also, for learning how to program, the right order matters.  
I've looked at several programming languages (by reading books) before 
really starting, and I decided that Logo was the right first programming 
language.  And that C was definitely the wrong first programming language.  
The first programming language needs to be interactive and forgiving.  The 
second can be interactive and unforgiving, like Forth, but it's too much 
frustration if you start with an unforgiving programming language - or a 
non-interactive.  The worst combination is a non-interactive unforgiving 
programming language like C.  If you teach them non-interactive first, 
people will be more happy with a more forgiving language like Java.  But I'd 
suggest to teach interactive+forgiving first, so Python would be the "en 
vogue" beginner's language of today (AFAIK, it actually is).

> As for older computers, Linux typically works better on hardware that
> is maybe 1 year old than on the newest hardware, and in my experience
> also works well on relatively old hardware, but if you want to install
> a modern general-purpose distribution on a 486 (i.e., over 20 years
> old hardware), you will be disappointed.  Ten year old stuff should do
> fine (except that you should not try to run compositing window
> managers on them; they look cool, but unlike Bernd, I don't think that
> they contribute to user friendlyness).

He has tough luck, as the Banias Pentium M is the only Intel CPU sold in 
this century which doesn't support PAE (well, it actually does, but it 
doesn't show it in its capability set, and for whatever reason, there's no 
workaround in the kernel by looking at the "Banias" CPUID signature).  You 
actually can boot Linux with the forcepae option:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PAE

This sort of workaround is silly, there should be a workaround right in the 
Linux kernel.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#41221

On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 23:04:22 +0200
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:

> He has tough luck, as the Banias Pentium M is the only Intel
> CPU sold in this century which doesn't support PAE (well, it
> actually does, but it doesn't show it in its capability set,
> and for whatever reason, there's no workaround in the kernel
> by looking at the "Banias" CPUID signature).  You actually can
> boot Linux with the forcepae option:
> 
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PAE

Thanks, didn't manage to fix this problem last time I saw it,
but this page offers a very good selection of workarounds.

I wonder if Dirk will try ToriOS, for it's similarity with
Windows, though he claims option D is most to his liking. 

Jan Coombs
-- 
email valid, else fix dots and hyphen
jan4clf2014@murrayhyphenmicroftdotcodotuk

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#41224

The Mint Linux distro contains an option right there on the boot screen to force PAE on. Simples. 

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#41232

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 4:52:05 AM UTC-4, Jan Coombs <Jan-54 > wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 23:04:22 +0200
> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan.de> wrote:
> 
> > He has tough luck, as the Banias Pentium M is the only Intel
> > CPU sold in this century which doesn't support PAE (well, it
> > actually does, but it doesn't show it in its capability set,
> > and for whatever reason, there's no workaround in the kernel
> > by looking at the "Banias" CPUID signature).  You actually can
> > boot Linux with the forcepae option:
> > 
> > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PAE
> 
> Thanks, didn't manage to fix this problem last time I saw it,
> but this page offers a very good selection of workarounds.
> 
> I wonder if Dirk will try ToriOS, for it's similarity with
> Windows, though he claims option D is most to his liking. 
> 
> Jan Coombs
> -- 
> email valid, else fix dots and hyphen
> jan4clf2014@murrayhyphenmicroftdotcodotuk

Jan, Thanks for mentioning ToriOS - I never heard or read about it before.

I like their website statement, especially the part "The aim of the project is to save so many computers from the trash as long as these are working":

"ToriOS is a GNU/Linux Operating System built for very old computers and for those who are interested and brave enough to build their own system the way they like from a fully working base with GUI and minimal installed packages by default.

The aim of the project is to save so many computers from the trash as long as these are working. We believe this project could be very helpful for people who could not buy new hardware and don't mind to use a better alternative to Microsoft Windows XP."

Source: http://www.torios.net

May be I give it a try.

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#41208

On Saturday, August 8, 2015 at 5:32:29 AM UTC-4, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> visualforth.com wrote:
> > Did you ever think why some people are great with Linux and others are
> > not? Did you ever think why some people are great with Forth and others
> > are not? Did you ever think why some people are great with Lisp and others
> > are not? Not to mention C and the derivatives.
> 
> Of course, intelligence amplifies your capabilities, and allows you to work 
> around limitations.  I don't know what kind of "how to save my file" problem 
> you have, because you don't describe your problem in detail.  Of course, if 
> you are using a 10 year old computer, it will be too slow for the newest 
> user-friendly stuff (Linux programmers also created bloatware in the past 10 
> years to fill all available RAM and use all of the CPU ;-).  So you are 
> limited to the less user-friendly stuff (lightweight window manager, vi or 
> emacs as editor).  In vi, you save a file in command mode with :w <filename> 
> and in Emacs with Ctrl-X Ctrl-S.  These editors have a user interface 
> "designed" 30 years ago.
> 
> The main problem you have is that you use an outdated computer.  This is not 
> about "Linux can't save my files", it's about "I can't run a descent Linux 
> distribution, because my computer is too old".  Some specialized Linux 
> distributions do a good job on old computers, but the mainstream ones are 
> for mainstream people, who buy a new computer every few years, because more 
> RAM, faster CPU, higher resolution, faster and larger harddisk/SSD is more 
> fun than sticking with the same old computer.
> 
> > There is other Neuroscience research out there - may be not at the MIT -
> > which points into another, more helpful direction: Neurodiversity.
> > 
> > Neurodiversity is an approach to learning and disability that suggests
> > that diverse neurological conditions appear as a result of normal
> > variations in the human genome.
> > 
> > Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity
> 
> Of course there are variations.  Autism is a pretty large variation from the 
> typical brain, and of course smaller variations exist, too.
> 
> > Further reading:
> > "Thinking Smarter About People Who Think Differently"
> > http://www.wired.com/2012/04/thinking-smarter-about-people-who-think-differently
> > 
> > Different people have different skills and different Operating Systems,
> > like computers have different Operating Systems. Mathematicians are
> > thinking differently than Musicians, and there are more examples. You can
> > only find out when asking and listening.
> 
> I do music and math, languages and programming, and I'm aware that this 
> stuff uses different parts of my brain.  However, you are not a musician or 
> a lawyer who has trouble with computers, because your thinking is too 
> different from the programmed logic, you are an experienced programmer.
> 
> -- 
> Bernd Paysan
> "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
> net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
> http://bernd-paysan.de/

There was a discussion a while ago on LinkedIn about how to teach Forth.

The Forth professionals did not understand that their teaching did not work in maker circles. They claimed to have written the best books about Forth ever.

They really did not recognize that there are different people in this world who understand things in a different way. It was not explainable to these people.

Same thing with saving in Linux.
It is not explainable.

I won't invest a huge sum to buy a new computer only to find out that this problem will be still the same.

I prefer to build my own computer system, for people like me.

Cheers,
DB.

"We all are tolerant - as long as the other behaves as expected!"

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