Re: OT: Farewell Windows

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: OT: Farewell Windows
Date	2015-08-08 14:37 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2015Aug8.163759@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <mq3172$pk1$1@dont-email.me> <8d106b9a-cb7a-4f89-a913-1dde4f129217@googlegroups.com> <mq3g7v$idm$1@dont-email.me> <2b6c8713-36cd-438b-a9d3-c18dde789f08@googlegroups.com> <mq4i8a$jf9$1@dont-email.me>

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> So you are 
>limited to the less user-friendly stuff (lightweight window manager, vi or 
>emacs as editor).  In vi, you save a file in command mode with :w <filename> 
>and in Emacs with Ctrl-X Ctrl-S.  These editors have a user interface 
>"designed" 30 years ago.

Most MacOS (and, cloned from that, Windows) editors have the keyboard
shortcuts designed 32 years ago for the Apple Lisa (in 1987 IBM named
this CUA).  I think that the vi interface is a little older (original
release 1976, 39 years ago), and Emacs probably as well.  The first
Emacs also was released in 1976, so the most basic Emacs interface is
probably from that time.

Anyway, if you want to save a file in a recent GNU emacs running on X,
the keyboard shortcut is still C-x C-s, and I consider it as a
testament to user-friendlyness that the things I learned 26 years ago
still work fine (also in vi).

But you can also use the GUI, click on "File" in the top bar, and get
a drop-down menu that contains "Save" and "Save as" (and also shows
the keyboard shortcuts).  Back to the keyboard, if you prefer CUA
keyboard bindings, you can get them in Emacs with M-x cua-mode, and
there are several vi-compatible modes (Viper Mode, vimmode, Evil).

As for more modern and resource-consuming editors, one that used to be
promoted a lot is Eclipse.  I saw a presentation on Eclipse by one of
the people on the project, and was underwhelmed.  Nothing he showed
really inspired me do play with Eclipse, and when someone in the
audience asked something (that I thought should be easily within
reach), he could not do it.  I later tried it for my programming
course.  I tried to edit and do some simple IDE stuff with a simple
Java program; after not getting anywhere for about 15 minutes, I gave
up, and switched to Netbeans (where I could get the thing to work in
15 minutes).  But I also only used Netbeans for that demonstration and
never again.

As for your theories about the unwillingness to learn, maybe the cost
is becoming higher with age, but I think that's not the decisive
factor.  The decisive factor is the benefit: If somebody does not know
any computer stuff, then learning one OS, one editor, one image
manipulation program, one spreadsheet, one version control system
etc. offers a significant benefit.  If sombody already knows one of
each of those, then switching them incurs a significant cost, and the
benefit is, at first, negative (they take longer with the unfamiliar
program than with the familiar one); it may become positive over time
(the new programs may be better, more stable, or have other benefits),
but for that one has to take the big hurdle at the beginning first.
And switching an OS and all applications makes that hurdle pretty
massive (instead of several smaller hurdles for switching one
application after the other).

As for older computers, Linux typically works better on hardware that
is maybe 1 year old than on the newest hardware, and in my experience
also works well on relatively old hardware, but if you want to install
a modern general-purpose distribution on a 486 (i.e., over 20 years
old hardware), you will be disappointed.  Ten year old stuff should do
fine (except that you should not try to run compositing window
managers on them; they look cool, but unlike Bernd, I don't think that
they contribute to user friendlyness).

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2015: http://www.mpeforth.com/euroforth2015/euroforth2015.htm

Thread

OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 04:28 -0700
  Re: OT: Farewell Windows djc <ciesinger@gmx.net> - 2015-08-07 08:35 -0700
  Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 10:51 -0700
    Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-07 21:35 +0200
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-07 23:38 +0200
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 00:34 +0200
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 15:50 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:09 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:23 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 01:34 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:46 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 01:52 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:43 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 11:32 +0200
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-08 14:37 +0000
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 23:04 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-08-09 09:52 +0100
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 02:04 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:33 -0700
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-08 08:32 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 22:28 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-09 04:09 +0200
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:52 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:53 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-10 01:15 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 20:46 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 17:56 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 00:41 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:44 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:53 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-08-09 15:50 -1000
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-09 19:26 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-10 07:41 +0000
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-10 06:30 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-10 06:30 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 05:02 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:45 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-11 02:20 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-08-11 08:30 +0100
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-08-16 12:59 +1000
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-17 00:01 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-17 18:45 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 23:23 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 08:35 +0200
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-08 00:10 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 09:52 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 01:13 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:45 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:26 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-10 01:12 +0200
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:41 -0400
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:20 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-10 00:40 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 19:49 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-10 02:09 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 20:51 -0400
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-08 02:59 -0400
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:38 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 01:51 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 07:46 +0300
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:49 -0700
    Re: OT: Farewell Windows humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 23:28 -0700
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 02:24 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 03:10 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 13:57 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 05:12 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-11 15:17 +0200
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 08:04 -0700
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 22:04 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 05:42 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-08-12 08:33 -0500
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 07:21 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 07:47 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:06 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:07 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 08:07 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 21:58 +0200
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-11 13:11 +0000

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