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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #30486 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-05-20 09:23 -0700 |
| Last post | 2014-05-25 13:27 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 314 — 30 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
Go Forth And Prosper Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-20 09:23 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 10:32 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 09:57 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 03:03 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 00:40 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:01 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 20:35 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-24 19:35 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:17 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-24 16:57 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-25 00:39 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 05:00 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-25 09:02 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 12:32 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper babruehl@gmail.com - 2014-05-25 12:36 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 15:43 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-25 13:02 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 13:14 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 13:05 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 17:04 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 15:44 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 12:01 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 17:33 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 18:08 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 23:44 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:29 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 11:12 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 11:18 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-27 15:50 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 00:12 +0100
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 19:19 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 11:41 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 17:38 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 08:13 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 17:57 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 08:30 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-25 21:44 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 09:01 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-25 22:09 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 10:26 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-25 23:34 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 12:32 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 09:37 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 21:32 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 10:49 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 11:40 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 12:13 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:41 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 11:03 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 11:24 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 00:35 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 15:56 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-27 10:34 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 16:53 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-27 20:43 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 01:57 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-27 10:28 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:37 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 17:29 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 10:56 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 11:31 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 12:12 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 12:50 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 15:54 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 13:10 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 13:32 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 14:01 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 20:50 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 19:13 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 23:50 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:51 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 00:03 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 03:19 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-27 00:33 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 00:43 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-27 01:18 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 05:18 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-27 00:42 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 13:53 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 20:13 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 17:34 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 21:49 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 20:33 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 13:48 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 20:24 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 17:44 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 21:01 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-27 00:08 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 12:39 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-27 13:36 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 19:53 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-27 18:11 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 08:57 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-29 09:42 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 15:03 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-30 00:23 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 02:04 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper test <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-28 04:54 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-28 10:17 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 06:51 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 13:35 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 10:43 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 09:19 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 13:41 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 12:20 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-28 13:28 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 17:54 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-28 19:13 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 23:17 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 11:27 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 11:51 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 13:01 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 13:26 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 13:48 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 14:02 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 14:45 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 14:37 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 15:05 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 15:31 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 15:50 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 16:11 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 16:43 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 17:00 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 17:58 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-30 01:31 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-31 14:15 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 11:29 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 22:47 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 20:24 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 23:35 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 20:55 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 20:41 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 00:22 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 21:41 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 01:28 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 08:33 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 13:05 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-30 11:47 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 13:07 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 14:14 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:04 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 12:34 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 23:41 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 17:27 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 15:05 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 18:15 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 17:45 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 21:53 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 19:13 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 19:45 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:27 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 19:39 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-30 11:37 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 20:16 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:32 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-31 02:49 +0100
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 19:15 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 11:23 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 11:18 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 08:41 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 09:53 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 09:50 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 11:17 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 09:55 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 23:26 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-28 04:56 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 09:39 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 09:46 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 10:18 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 10:28 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-28 12:57 -0500
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 10:39 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 10:47 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 20:45 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 11:49 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 22:08 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-29 09:46 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-31 13:00 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-31 23:07 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 06:37 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 20:39 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 16:03 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 09:43 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 00:45 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 12:40 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 11:46 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 12:47 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-27 10:54 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 12:49 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-28 12:52 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 12:24 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 12:28 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 03:21 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:33 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 19:08 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 20:15 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 11:05 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 16:02 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 13:30 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 16:50 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 14:12 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 18:54 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 17:15 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 15:00 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 15:13 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 17:19 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 17:27 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 18:26 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 18:34 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 21:53 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 19:58 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 20:03 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-21 01:27 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-21 10:31 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2014-05-21 09:07 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-21 11:46 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-21 15:34 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-21 11:48 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 21:47 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 18:48 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 13:00 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 16:47 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-21 00:18 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 18:55 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-21 02:22 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 22:06 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-21 14:26 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-21 17:17 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-21 17:48 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 14:41 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 12:23 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 12:12 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 11:36 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 14:53 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 12:12 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 15:23 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 12:29 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 16:51 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-22 13:58 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:24 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:32 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 12:39 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 13:00 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-24 09:18 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 18:46 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 19:12 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:36 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:42 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-27 23:13 +0100
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 19:19 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 20:52 +0100
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 22:12 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-29 12:41 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 01:47 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-28 05:20 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 21:03 +0100
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 22:13 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 06:41 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 16:44 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 07:49 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 17:01 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-05-28 15:01 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 08:40 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 20:45 +0200
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 14:53 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 21:10 +0100
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 23:28 +0300
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-28 17:54 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 21:01 +0100
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2014-05-28 08:00 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 21:50 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 14:52 +0300
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 17:45 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 23:47 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 19:41 +0300
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 02:35 -0700
Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-24 21:24 -0400
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-24 17:02 -1000
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 21:21 -0700
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-24 22:16 -0700
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-24 21:02 -1000
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-05-25 11:39 +0100
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-25 15:24 +0200
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-25 09:07 -0700
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-05-25 14:15 +0000
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-05-25 12:48 -0400
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-27 23:27 +0100
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2014-05-26 13:08 -0400
Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 07:41 -1000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:31 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-25 04:05 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 12:42 +0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 07:50 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 22:09 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-23 05:08 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-23 09:46 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-23 13:32 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-23 14:26 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:20 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-24 08:31 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 08:40 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-24 09:50 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 21:35 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-25 11:25 +0000
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 16:20 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-27 06:04 -0500
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:01 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 19:24 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-24 10:12 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:29 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:37 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 12:08 -0400
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 13:21 -0700
Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 13:27 -0700
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 14:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xa9accfy1.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #30495 |
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: > Don't know, don't care. I build hardware for a living and it is hard > to build low quantities of anything for under $100 and actually make a > buck. I can't really dispute anything you've said because one man's > "moderate" quanities are another man's "mass" quantities. I'm talking > about 100 to 1000. Fair enough. For this type of thing, let's say 100-1k = small, 1k-10k = moderate, >10k = large. It seems to me that lots of boards are being built fairly inexpensively for niche products. So it sounds like either the builders are losing money, or they're making stuff in higher volumes than I'd have guessed, or they have some kind of cost cutting schemes that might or might not affect product reliability (none of these boards are in critical systems). >> The RPi and BBB boards use enormous A-series application processors > "Enormous"??? They are certainly not going to run from a 9 volt > battery very long, but I think you overstate their "enormity". The smallest raspberry pi has 256 megabytes of ram and normally uses a multi-gigabyte SD flash card as a "disk". Compared to traditional Forth environments that is very enormous and then some. I think of Forth as a lightweight language for realtime hardware control on low-resource platforms, so an RPi seems outsized for Forth. RPi's are frequently programmed in Python and I know that Erlang and Haskell also run on them. > In theory they can run Gforth, but I seem to recall it takes some > know-how to make that happen. I have an rPi someone gave me and if I > could get it to run gforth I would be very happy. I'm talking about > having a forth all set to go where it just has to be installed. Did you try "apt-get install gforth"? "Gforth raspberry pi" gets tons of search hits too. > I would actually prefer to see a Forth that doesn't run under an OS, I get the impression this is not really practical/worthwhile on an RPi-like board, because of the complexity of even booting the thing, and then controlling all the cruft in the cpu. Smaller processors are much simpler and maybe more suited to real time work. The BBB has a pair of auxiliary real time processors right there on the chip (bizarre 32-bit RISC architecture with 8k of ram shared with the main cpu), and those are potentially quite interesting for Forth. But the idea is you'd communicate with them from a Linux application running on the main cpu.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 18:54 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <llgmei$bck$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30497 |
On 5/20/2014 5:12 PM, Paul Rubin wrote: > rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: >> Don't know, don't care. I build hardware for a living and it is hard >> to build low quantities of anything for under $100 and actually make a >> buck. I can't really dispute anything you've said because one man's >> "moderate" quanities are another man's "mass" quantities. I'm talking >> about 100 to 1000. > > Fair enough. For this type of thing, let's say 100-1k = small, 1k-10k > = moderate, >10k = large. > > It seems to me that lots of boards are being built fairly inexpensively > for niche products. So it sounds like either the builders are losing > money, or they're making stuff in higher volumes than I'd have guessed, > or they have some kind of cost cutting schemes that might or might not > affect product reliability (none of these boards are in critical systems). How about we just skip the labels and just use the numbers? I doubt Simon is expecting anything above 1000, but at that point his price is only $35. That's not bad. At 10,000 units he will sell them for just $22.44. I'd be willing to bet he has gotten quotes for all the costs and isn't even planning on profit. >>> The RPi and BBB boards use enormous A-series application processors >> "Enormous"??? They are certainly not going to run from a 9 volt >> battery very long, but I think you overstate their "enormity". > > The smallest raspberry pi has 256 megabytes of ram and normally uses a > multi-gigabyte SD flash card as a "disk". Compared to traditional Forth > environments that is very enormous and then some. I think of Forth as a > lightweight language for realtime hardware control on low-resource > platforms, so an RPi seems outsized for Forth. RPi's are frequently > programmed in Python and I know that Erlang and Haskell also run on > them. Yeah, what's your point? If you imagination is limited you feel using Forth should also be limited? There are stand alone Forths that run on PCs. Certainly that is a bit more complex than an rPi. I see the rPi as a nice little module. It is popular because it is low cost, small and easy to program. If we can do the same thing with Forth running on it, what's not to like? >> In theory they can run Gforth, but I seem to recall it takes some >> know-how to make that happen. I have an rPi someone gave me and if I >> could get it to run gforth I would be very happy. I'm talking about >> having a forth all set to go where it just has to be installed. > > Did you try "apt-get install gforth"? "Gforth raspberry pi" gets tons > of search hits too. No, I have not spent much time on it. Someone had written up his efforts to get gforth running a little while back. My recollection was that it wasn't terribly hard, but he had to do something other than just install it. >> I would actually prefer to see a Forth that doesn't run under an OS, > > I get the impression this is not really practical/worthwhile on an > RPi-like board, because of the complexity of even booting the thing, and > then controlling all the cruft in the cpu. Smaller processors are much > simpler and maybe more suited to real time work. The BBB has a pair of > auxiliary real time processors right there on the chip (bizarre 32-bit > RISC architecture with 8k of ram shared with the main cpu), and those > are potentially quite interesting for Forth. But the idea is you'd > communicate with them from a Linux application running on the main cpu. Yeah, the graphic core is not open but I think there is enough info for you to talk to it and run the canned stuff. I think Linux is not really required to use the chip, but a lot of work would need to be done to control the various functions as you say. But then have you read the manual for any of the 32 bit ARM Cortex MCUs lately? Well over 1000 pages I seem to recall for the ones I have seen. -- Rick
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 17:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xmwecxa0h.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #30504 |
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: > How about we just skip the labels and just use the numbers? I doubt > Simon is expecting anything above 1000, but at that point his price is > only $35. That's not bad. I trust your judgement about hardware costs more than I trust my own, so I'm a little disappointed by these numbers. I have an idea for a board I want to make (qty a few hundred to start with) and was hoping that the NRE would be somewhat lower. I had figured most adafruit.com boards are made in the 100-1k volume range, but I don't know. >> The smallest raspberry pi has 256 megabytes of ram > Yeah, what's your point? If you imagination is limited you feel using > Forth should also be limited? > > There are stand alone Forths that run on PCs. Certainly that is a bit > more complex than an rPi. I know of some 16-bit Forths that run in 8086 real mode, like a 1980's PC. I don't know if it's possible to program the rPi the same way, or you have to program it like a full blown modern x86 server or workstation including address virtualization and all the rest. > I see the rPi as a nice little module. It is popular because it is > low cost, small and easy to program. If we can do the same thing with > Forth running on it, what's not to like? At least in user mode, the rPi can run Forth just fine, if that's what you want. Forth has pluses and minuses just like anything else. All I'm saying is that one of the big pluses of Forth is that it can run on tiny hardware. If you run it on big hardware, that particular plus is de-emphasized which makes the minuses stand out more. If the trade-off is still to your liking even after that, then great. For me, it changes the math for most applications I can think of. > Yeah, the graphic core is not open but I think there is enough info > for you to talk to it and run the canned stuff. I think Linux is not > really required to use the chip, but a lot of work would need to be > done to control the various functions as you say. Right, the non-graphics parts are documented but there's still apparently a ton of crap to deal with. MMU, DRAM controller, multiple clocks, power management, etc. People tell me that the rPi works pretty well because it's out there in such quantities and the software (Linux kernel) snafus have already been found and fixed by other people. The BBB is supposed to also be ok in that regard. Developing on the lesser known boards of this type apparently means you will be spending part of your time debugging Linux kernels or whatever your replacement is. I like to hope that on the M-series SOC's, things are much simpler than on the A-series.
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 15:00 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <adf5bfe8-f823-407d-8cd4-f0275719b10f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30495 |
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 4:50:31 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote: > The scale of the board is not the issue. The question is what does this > board do that the others don't? I don't mean in terms of features > necessarily, I mean what exactly is the point? How is this board > different? The difference is: This is the first time ever Forth on crowdfunding. The real question is: Will M. Simon reach his moderate funding goal of $2,250 - that means, he needs less than two dozen supporters - or will this end with $150 as it is now? The result will shed a light on the Forth community. There is no comparison with the Raspberry Pi, of course. The Raspberry Pi launch was much better prepared, and they got an overwhelming response. Would be great if the Alpha Team would get some merits out of it. It is a new page in history of Forth.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 15:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x7g5gnlo7.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #30499 |
visualforth@rocketmail.com writes: > The difference is: This is the first time ever Forth on crowdfunding. Is this even Forth on crowdfunding, or is it a fairly boring microprocessor board on crowdfunding, where the board's designer happens to like Forth, so Forth runs on the board? Nothing about the board seems particularly aimed at Forth. I thought for a minute the below had something to do with Forth, but it probably doesn't: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alonsomartin/heart-forth-alicia
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 17:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eb6a63d8-9cff-48ff-b5d9-ceebccf16c7b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30500 |
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 6:13:28 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote: > visualforth.com writes: > > > The difference is: This is the first time ever Forth on crowdfunding. > Is this even Forth on crowdfunding, or is it a fairly boring > microprocessor board on crowdfunding, where the board's designer happens > to like Forth, so Forth runs on the board? Nothing about the board > seems particularly aimed at Forth. This is not about the board. It's about the intention: Simon says: "I want to improve the productivity of Real Time Control software design by making Forth the premier language of real time... the beginning of our efforts to make Forth the most widely used Real Time language." I am wondering what would have happened if Simon would have announced his plans at c.l.f. - would he ever have had then the courage to start?
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 17:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xsio4nfgu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #30507 |
visualforth@rocketmail.com writes: > I am wondering what would have happened if Simon would have announced > his plans at c.l.f. - would he ever have had then the courage to > start? Suppose c.l.f. responses made him decide to not bother starting his hardware project. So he never makes his board. Instead, he writes his Forth for an existing board like an STM Discovery or Tiva Launchpad. All his effort goes into Forth instead of generic-looking hardware. Is that somehow less good for the Forth community? There are at least 10 comparable ARM boards already available. If Simon's hardware project is successful, there will be one more. As a Forth user now with 11 boards to choose from, are you likely to use Simon's, or one of the others?
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 18:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a5420d00-ef55-478d-b587-269d58aa2596@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30509 |
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:27:29 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote: > visualforth.com writes: > > > I am wondering what would have happened if Simon would have announced > > his plans at c.l.f. - would he ever have had then the courage to > > start? > > Suppose c> .l.f. responses made him decide to not bother starting his > hardware project. So he never makes his board. Instead, he writes his > Forth for an existing board like an STM Discovery or Tiva Launchpad. > All his effort goes into Forth instead of generic-looking hardware. Is > that somehow less good for the Forth community? > > There are at least 10 comparable ARM boards already available. If > Simon's hardware project is successful, there will be one more. As a > Forth user now with 11 boards to choose from, are you likely to use > Simon's, or one of the others? It would be great to have a Forth family for microprocessor boards which allows to run the same program on different boards and microprocessor families. Commands like @ADC, !PWM and the like would make this possible, and would make programming much easier than with other tools. But who could write such a Forth? And what about the licenses?
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 18:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xtx8jzzgy.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #30510 |
visualforth@rocketmail.com writes: > But who could write such a Forth? And what about the licenses? I don't know, but it sounds like a software task rather than a hardware one.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 21:53 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <llh0vb$58l$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30510 |
On 5/20/2014 9:26 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:27:29 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote: >> visualforth.com writes: >> >>> I am wondering what would have happened if Simon would have announced >>> his plans at c.l.f. - would he ever have had then the courage to >>> start? >> >> Suppose c> .l.f. responses made him decide to not bother starting his >> hardware project. So he never makes his board. Instead, he writes his >> Forth for an existing board like an STM Discovery or Tiva Launchpad. >> All his effort goes into Forth instead of generic-looking hardware. Is >> that somehow less good for the Forth community? >> >> There are at least 10 comparable ARM boards already available. If >> Simon's hardware project is successful, there will be one more. As a >> Forth user now with 11 boards to choose from, are you likely to use >> Simon's, or one of the others? > > It would be great to have a Forth family for microprocessor boards which allows to run the same program on different boards and microprocessor families. Commands like @ADC, !PWM and the like would make this possible, and would make programming much easier than with other tools. That sounds nice and might be possible for a limited set of peripherals. Many peripherals are not so compatible between brands, operating differently and supporting a different set of features. For example, some ADC/DACs will only be usable through program I/O. Others support DMA. The user program interface will be rather different unless you abstract it to a higher level not completely different from file I/O. Then each I/O device will require a driver unique to that device or family. Certainly not unreasonable and I believe the Mecrisp project is headed in that direction. > But who could write such a Forth? And what about the licenses? What licenses? -- Rick
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 19:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f07bddc6-f304-4922-bd0a-77f9c385b249@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30513 |
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 9:53:45 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote: > On 5/20/2014 9:26 PM, visualforth.com wrote: > > On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:27:29 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote: > >> visualforth.com writes: > > It would be great to have a Forth family for microprocessor boards which allows to run the same program on different boards and microprocessor families. Commands like @ADC, !PWM and the like would make this possible, and would make programming much easier than with other tools. > > That sounds nice and might be possible for a limited set of peripherals. > Many peripherals are not so compatible between brands, operating > differently and supporting a different set of features. For example, > some ADC/DACs will only be usable through program I/O. Others support > DMA. The user program interface will be rather different unless you > abstract it to a higher level not completely different from file I/O. Thanks for writing these lines. That's just the point. Programming in C or assembler you need libraries at this point. With Forth it is possible to write @ADC or !DAC or something like that, because these words should be part of the Forth version needed for a specific microprocessor and/or board. Keep it simple! RSC-Forth did that. This is a higher level. Writing a Forth for a microprocessor family needs the ability to think Forth. Forth itself runs on not so compatible brands. The adaptability and extensibility is the beauty of Forth. These commands have to be parts of Forth, and porting of Forth to a special board needs some work to achieve this, because even boards with the same microprocessor may have different hardware configurations. It makes only sense to offer a Forth which includes such commands, otherwise it is easier to copy/paste C patchwork together, especially for a newbee.
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 20:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e1d064a8-2561-4afa-b0c8-0add8d201faa@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30513 |
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 9:53:45 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote: > On 5/20/2014 9:26 PM, visualforth.com wrote: > > On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:27:29 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote: > >> visualforth.com writes: > > But who could write such a Forth? And what about the licenses? > > What licenses? > Sorry, this was just a remark which came to my mind. It's another topic. I always was wondering why usually everyone writes his own Forth, and I came to the conclusion that may be to avoid trouble with licenses when (commercially) using a Forth somebody else has written.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-21 01:27 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <llhdga$mo$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30517 |
On 5/20/2014 11:03 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 9:53:45 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote: >> On 5/20/2014 9:26 PM, visualforth.com wrote: >>> On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:27:29 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote: >>>> visualforth.com writes: >>> But who could write such a Forth? And what about the licenses? >> >> What licenses? >> > Sorry, this was just a remark which came to my mind. It's another topic. > I always was wondering why usually everyone writes his own Forth, and I came to the conclusion that may be to avoid trouble with licenses when (commercially) using a Forth somebody else has written. I expect the reasons why people write their own forths has been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere. Personally I would expect the licensing issues to be lower on the list. I think high on the list is as George Mallory said of climbing Everest, "Because it's there". I don't expect to ever write a Forth since many have done a very good job and I am basically lazy. I much prefer the image Newton said of himself of standing on the shoulders of giants. :) -- Rick
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-21 10:31 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f24e81e9-a8f3-41f9-8af2-1cb7cee81aa2@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30518 |
On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:27:36 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote: > I don't expect to ever write a Forth since many have done a very good > job and I am basically lazy. I much prefer the image Newton said of > himself of standing on the shoulders of giants. :) Rick, Thanks for these great words! I totally agree!
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| From | Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-21 09:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c0b83c05-555a-4192-8701-abdc38016e2a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30517 |
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 10:03:56 PM UTC-5, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote: > Sorry, this was just a remark which came to my mind. It's another topic. > > I always was wondering why usually everyone writes his own Forth, and I came to the conclusion that may be to avoid trouble with licenses when (commercially) using a Forth somebody else has written. The licences are generally: 1. "Don't compete with us, using our own product." Although you can see in Roger Levy's thread where the specific limitations seemed to close off leaving Forth available as the extension language of a Forth application. 2. "Don't distribute a proprietary fork." Although again, one wonders about extension languages. 3. "Do whatever you want." I'm sure there are many good reasons to produce a forth. I imagine the bad reasons are mostly rooted in some contempt for Forth as a language. It's such a simple language that it is no demanding task to produce an implementation of it that is any good -- so you get 'forths' written by people who get ROT -ROT backwards. It's such a low-level language that you couldn't possibly write a high-level library for it and then get to work; it's such a fractured language that you can't just pick a system and an object system and an environment and then get to work; it's such a *standardized language* that you can't just declare your dependencies and then get to work -- so you have Joe's Completely Incompatible Forthalike in which Joe doesn't have to defend choosing Neon or preferring 'putn' to '.' for printing numbers or whatever. -- Julian
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| From | mhx@iae.nl |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-21 11:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3bf75d60-80b3-4a69-b5ae-c0dc984497c7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30523 |
On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:07:04 PM UTC+2, Julian Fondren wrote: [..] > -- so you have Joe's Completely > Incompatible Forthalike in which Joe doesn't have to defend choosing Neon or > preferring 'putn' to '.' for printing numbers or whatever. Thank you for an entertaining post :-) Surely it isn't as bad as that. I have no trouble of finding my way in Gforth, VFX, or SwiftForth, although I find them needlessly awkward. Win32Forth has become marginal and platform locked (by its own desire I think). SP-Forth is in Russian. What else is there? The situation might be worse for small controller boards. I certainly wouldn't waste a ms of my time with the products you describe. -marcel
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-21 15:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <lliv3u$ejm$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30528 |
On 5/21/2014 2:46 PM, mhx@iae.nl wrote: > On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:07:04 PM UTC+2, Julian Fondren wrote: > [..] >> -- so you have Joe's Completely >> Incompatible Forthalike in which Joe doesn't have to defend choosing Neon or >> preferring 'putn' to '.' for printing numbers or whatever. > > Thank you for an entertaining post :-) > > Surely it isn't as bad as that. I have no trouble of finding my > way in Gforth, VFX, or SwiftForth, although I find them needlessly > awkward. Win32Forth has become marginal and platform locked (by > its own desire I think). SP-Forth is in Russian. What else is there? > > The situation might be worse for small controller boards. > I certainly wouldn't waste a ms of my time with the products > you describe. Do you work with MCUs? I don't recognize your email address. Are you Marcel Hendrix? Ah, I expect you are, I see the Marcel Hendrix web page is hosted at iae.nl. I know I've seen your posts here, but I don't recall your type of Forth usage, MCU or PC. -- Rick
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| From | mhx@iae.nl |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-21 11:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <268a7a38-ab2b-48b7-9dd0-07b14671264f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30523 |
On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 6:07:04 PM UTC+2, Julian Fondren wrote: [..] > -- so you have Joe's Completely > Incompatible Forthalike in which Joe doesn't have to defend choosing Neon or > preferring 'putn' to '.' for printing numbers or whatever. Thank you for an entertaining post :-) Surely it isn't as bad as that. I have no trouble of finding my way in Gforth, VFX, or SwiftForth. Win32Forth has become marginal and platform locked (by its own desire I think). SP-Forth is in Russian. What else is there? The situation might be worse for small controller boards. I certainly wouldn't waste a ms of my time with the products you describe. -marcel
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 21:47 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <llh0k2$2sv$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30507 |
On 5/20/2014 8:19 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 6:13:28 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote: >> visualforth.com writes: >> >>> The difference is: This is the first time ever Forth on crowdfunding. > >> Is this even Forth on crowdfunding, or is it a fairly boring >> microprocessor board on crowdfunding, where the board's designer happens >> to like Forth, so Forth runs on the board? Nothing about the board >> seems particularly aimed at Forth. > > This is not about the board. It's about the intention: > > Simon says: > "I want to improve the productivity of Real Time Control software design by making Forth the premier language of real time... the beginning of our efforts to make Forth the most widely used Real Time language." I think that is the point people are trying to make. The intention does not justify designing yet another MCU board. -- Rick
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-20 18:48 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <llgm4m$9gk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30499 |
On 5/20/2014 6:00 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 4:50:31 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote: > >> The scale of the board is not the issue. The question is what does this >> board do that the others don't? I don't mean in terms of features >> necessarily, I mean what exactly is the point? How is this board >> different? > > The difference is: This is the first time ever Forth on crowdfunding. But it has nothing to do with Forth really. It is an MCU board with a forth available. There are lots of those, no? > The real question is: Will M. Simon reach his moderate funding goal of $2,250 - that means, he needs less than two dozen supporters - or will this end with $150 as it is now? > > The result will shed a light on the Forth community. I think this will have little to do with the "forth" community. This is not really about forth. > There is no comparison with the Raspberry Pi, of course. The Raspberry Pi launch was much better prepared, and they got an overwhelming response. > Would be great if the Alpha Team would get some merits out of it. > It is a new page in history of Forth. Lol. More like, a new line in the book of forth. I don't expect to buy any of these because I have no idea what they do that 5,000 other MCU boards don't do. Forth isn't it. -- Rick
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