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J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress

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  J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress C G Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2014-02-18 20:39 -0500
    Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-19 01:35 -0800
    Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-02-19 10:39 +0100
    Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-19 09:57 +0000
      Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress jg <josefg@gmail.com> - 2014-02-27 21:07 -0800
        Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-02-28 01:26 -0800
        Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 14:44 -0800
        Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-03-03 10:40 +0100
          Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-03 02:36 -0800
          Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-03 13:51 -0500
            Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-03 20:16 +0000
            Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress C G Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2014-03-03 17:51 -0500
              Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-03 19:09 -0500
          Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-03 11:28 -0800
          Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 00:08 -0800
            Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress mike73900@gmail.com - 2014-03-04 14:58 -0800
              Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress mike73900@gmail.com - 2014-03-04 16:09 -0800
    Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress "David N. Williams" <williams@umich.edu> - 2014-02-19 08:44 -0500
    Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Marcos Cruz <null_email_so_use_my_contact_page@programandala.net> - 2014-02-19 19:15 +0000
    Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-02-19 11:54 -0800
    Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress mike73900@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 13:56 -0800
    Re: J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress mike73900@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 14:09 -0800

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#28551 — J. Noble's Scientific Forth: progress

I'm pleased to inform you that I have been able to establish
contact with Harriet Noble, Julian Noble's widow and the 
copyright holder for his book Scientific Forth, through an address
I obtained with the assistance of Josef Gabriel.  She has
graciously provided, in an email, the following statement:

quote===========
I hereby state that, as holder of the copyright for Julian Noble?s book 
Scientific Forth, I have no objection to a digital version of this work 
being made publicly available on the internet.
end quote=======

I have told her I will see to it that a copy of that statement will be 
provided with the text of Julian's book, once a digital version has been
produced and a suitable location for an archived copy has been chosen.
I think this will be more than adequate for clarifying the intellectual-
property status of the work, and I have assured her that her generous
cooperation will be greatly appreciated by the Forth community present and 
future.

regards to all   cgm

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#28564

Congratulations! Your patient, dilligent work has paid off for the benefit of us all. The beer's on me!

Mark

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#28565

Well done - thank you for that effort !
Matthias

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#28568

C G Montgomery wrote:

> I'm pleased to inform you that I have been able to establish
> contact with Harriet Noble, Julian Noble's widow and the
> copyright holder for his book Scientific Forth, through an address
> I obtained with the assistance of Josef Gabriel.  She has
> graciously provided, in an email, the following statement:
> 
> quote===========
> I hereby state that, as holder of the copyright for Julian Noble?s book
> Scientific Forth, I have no objection to a digital version of this work
> being made publicly available on the internet.
> end quote=======
> 
> I have told her I will see to it that a copy of that statement will be
> provided with the text of Julian's book, once a digital version has been
> produced and a suitable location for an archived copy has been chosen.
> I think this will be more than adequate for clarifying the intellectual-
> property status of the work, and I have assured her that her generous
> cooperation will be greatly appreciated by the Forth community present and
> future.
> 
> regards to all   cgm

Well done Carol. Glad you finally managed to contact Harriet and obtain such 
a clear permission. I think Ed Falat may have some news on the digitisation 
efforts.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#28822

On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 1:57:35 AM UTC-8, Paul E Bennett wrote:
> C G Montgomery wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > I'm pleased to inform you that I have been able to establish
> 
> > contact with Harriet Noble, Julian Noble's widow and the
> 
> > copyright holder for his book Scientific Forth, through an address
> 
> > I obtained with the assistance of Josef Gabriel.  She has
> 
> > graciously provided, in an email, the following statement:
> 
> > 
> 
> > quote===========
> 
> > I hereby state that, as holder of the copyright for Julian Noble?s book
> 
> > Scientific Forth, I have no objection to a digital version of this work
> 
> > being made publicly available on the internet.
> 
> > end quote=======
> 
> > 
> 
> > I have told her I will see to it that a copy of that statement will be
> 
> > provided with the text of Julian's book, once a digital version has been
> 
> > produced and a suitable location for an archived copy has been chosen.
> 
> > I think this will be more than adequate for clarifying the intellectual-
> 
> > property status of the work, and I have assured her that her generous
> 
> > cooperation will be greatly appreciated by the Forth community present and
> 
> > future.
> 
> > 
> 
> > regards to all   cgm
> 
> 
> 
> Well done Carol. Glad you finally managed to contact Harriet and obtain such 
> 
> a clear permission. I think Ed Falat may have some news on the digitisation 
> 
> efforts.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> ********************************************************************
> 
> Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
> 
> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
> 
> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
> 
> Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
> 
> Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
> 
> ********************************************************************

The Upgrade Paper Project digitized my "Scientific FORTH" copy. The binding made some pages edges difficult to scan, but not many require full on interpretation. For the initial archived scanned copy, where do I need to send the pdf?

I participated in the "Thinking Forth" project, and am wondering what the interest is in a similar project for "Scientific Forth." The google drive OCR does a pretty good job with the regular text, but FORTH code and the actual math equations will need human loving.

The plan would be:
1st release: CC non-commercial LaTeX version release with a big thank you to Harriet Noble and Julian's recently found poem
2nd release: ANSified version?
3rd release: ?????

Thoughts?

-jg

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#28828

On Friday, February 28, 2014 6:07:07 AM UTC+1, jg wrote:
[..]
> The plan would be: 1st release: CC non-commercial LaTeX version 
> release with a big thank you to Harriet Noble and Julian's recently 
> found poem 
> 2nd release: ANSified version? 
> 3rd release: ????? Thoughts? -jg

The first release would be great, the book has an unnecessary 
cramped look to it and is difficult to read.

Your idea for the second release is bound to fail because of the
many CODE words.

Because the book is CC it might be that somebody eventually 
translates the gist of it to modern Forth (as a work of love).
That step is better not executed by a committee :-)

-marcel

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#28836

On Friday, February 28, 2014 5:07:07 AM UTC, jg wrote:
> The plan would be:
> 1st release: CC non-commercial LaTeX version release with a big thank you to Harriet Noble and Julian's recently found poem
> 2nd release: ANSified version?
> 3rd release: ?????
> 
> Thoughts?
> 

Is the plan to keep the 16-bit flavour of Scientific Forth?

- Assad

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#28868

> The Upgrade Paper Project digitized my "Scientific FORTH" copy. The binding made some pages edges difficult to scan, but not many require full on interpretation. For the initial archived scanned copy, where do I need to send the pdf?

May you please put the scanned PDF on Sourceforge or Github for everyone to read ? As Harriet Noble allows this gem to be released to the public - maybe on creative commons licence - this should be the first step to go. I have 16 bit embedded targets in mind, so this still is of interest in unmodified form for at least one person.

Matthias

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#28869

Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> writes:
> May you please put the scanned PDF on Sourceforge or Github for
> everyone to read ?

Forth.org is a logical place since they have a bunch of other scanned
Forth books.  Archive.org is also good since they have lots of scanned
books in general.  Archive.org also may be able to do a higher quality
scan since they have equipment that keeps the pages flat for photography
(the scanning setup has a V-shaped glass flattener).

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#28873

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 04:40:08 -0500, Matthias Koch  
<matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> wrote:

>> The Upgrade Paper Project digitized my "Scientific FORTH" copy. The  
>> binding made some pages edges difficult to scan, but not many require  
>> full on interpretation. For the initial archived scanned copy, where do  
>> I need to send the pdf?
>
> May you please put the scanned PDF on Sourceforge or Github for everyone  
> to read ? As Harriet Noble allows this gem to be released to the public  
> - maybe on creative commons licence - this should be the first step to  
> go.

 From what was quoted in JG's post, she didn't grant a license to the work,
or allow for the work to be licensable.  She, at best, granted a right to
1) make the work available in digital form and 2) make the work publicly
available on the internet.  Of course, publicly available on the internet
doesn't mean available for free, as everyone here has assumed.  A  
copyrighted
work in digital form for sale on the internet is "publicly available on
the internet" too ...  I.e., it seems the work would still be copyrighted
in full or almost so, non-licensed, and perhaps have a fee.  From what was
posted, she didn't grant anyone here the digital conversion rights either,
i.e., what you need to take her copyright and produce a digital version.
She said she had "no objection" to the work being available.  That doesn't
mean she gave anyone here the right to convert or distribute.  It might
imply that, but then again, it might not.  She might have plans to provide
the book herself.  As I see it, she didn't grant any distribution right
either.  Re-read it with both a for and against perspective.  And, if all
of you are serious about his work being available, I would recommend to
stop being cheap, spend the money, consult a real intellectual property
law attorney, determine what actual rights she actually granted, if any,
in her full email.  Then, get a contract signed by her with all licensed
rights fully enumerated.


Rod Pemberton

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#28877

In article <op.xb5tbatj6zenlw@localhost>,
Rod Pemberton <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> wrote:
>On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 04:40:08 -0500, Matthias Koch
><matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> wrote:
>
>>> The Upgrade Paper Project digitized my "Scientific FORTH" copy. The
>>> binding made some pages edges difficult to scan, but not many require
>>> full on interpretation. For the initial archived scanned copy, where do
>>> I need to send the pdf?
>>
>> May you please put the scanned PDF on Sourceforge or Github for everyone
>> to read ? As Harriet Noble allows this gem to be released to the public
>> - maybe on creative commons licence - this should be the first step to
>> go.
>
> From what was quoted in JG's post, she didn't grant a license to the work,
>or allow for the work to be licensable.  She, at best, granted a right to
>1) make the work available in digital form and 2) make the work publicly
>available on the internet.  Of course, publicly available on the internet
>doesn't mean available for free, as everyone here has assumed.  A
>copyrighted
>work in digital form for sale on the internet is "publicly available on
>the internet" too ...  I.e., it seems the work would still be copyrighted
>in full or almost so, non-licensed, and perhaps have a fee.  From what was
>posted, she didn't grant anyone here the digital conversion rights either,
>i.e., what you need to take her copyright and produce a digital version.
>She said she had "no objection" to the work being available.  That doesn't
>mean she gave anyone here the right to convert or distribute.  It might
>imply that, but then again, it might not.  She might have plans to provide
>the book herself.  As I see it, she didn't grant any distribution right
>either.  Re-read it with both a for and against perspective.  And, if all
>of you are serious about his work being available, I would recommend to
>stop being cheap, spend the money, consult a real intellectual property
>law attorney, determine what actual rights she actually granted, if any,
>in her full email.  Then, get a contract signed by her with all licensed
>rights fully enumerated.

You make her sound like a cunning, frivilous lawsuit lawyer rather
than a grieving widow who wants the work of her husband conserved and
of use for mankind.

We are talking of two parties in agreement and in good faith.

I applaud the efforts of those involved and trust that if anything
ontowards happens, Mrs. Noble will let us know, and it will solved
amicably.

>
>
>Rod Pemberton

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#28883

Rod Pemberton dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm wrote:
> ...
>  From what was quoted in JG's post, she didn't grant a license to the
>  work,
> or allow for the work to be licensable.  She, at best, granted a right
> to 1) make the work available in digital form and 2) make the work
> publicly
> available on the internet.  Of course, publicly available on the
> internet
> doesn't mean available for free, as everyone here has assumed.  A
> copyrighted
> work in digital form for sale on the internet is "publicly available on
> the internet" too ...  I.e., it seems the work would still be
> copyrighted
> in full or almost so, non-licensed, and perhaps have a fee.  From what
> was posted, she didn't grant anyone here the digital conversion rights
> either, i.e., what you need to take her copyright and produce a digital
> version.
> She said she had "no objection" to the work being available.  That
> doesn't
> mean she gave anyone here the right to convert or distribute.  It might
> imply that, but then again, it might not.  She might have plans to
> provide
> the book herself.  As I see it, she didn't grant any distribution right
> either.  Re-read it with both a for and against perspective.  And, if
> all of you are serious about his work being available, I would recommend
> to stop being cheap, spend the money, consult a real intellectual
> property law attorney, determine what actual rights she actually
> granted, if any,
> in her full email.  Then, get a contract signed by her with all licensed
> rights fully enumerated.
> 
The language of Mrs. Noble's statement is essentially what I proposed, 
deliberately, in my correspondence with her.  She is still the copyright 
owner.  She has the legal right to require, at some time in the future, 
that the digitized copy be removed from the internet, or that it be made 
available only to those paying some established fee.  That is not going to 
happen.  [If it does, sue me. ;-)]

I'm in complete agreement with Albert on this one!

regards to all   cgm

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#28886

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 17:51:45 -0500, C G Montgomery  
<cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> wrote:

> The language of Mrs. Noble's statement is essentially what I proposed,
> deliberately, in my correspondence with her.  She is still the copyright
> owner.  She has the legal right to require, at some time in the future,
> that the digitized copy be removed from the internet, or that it be made
> available only to those paying some established fee.  That is not going
> to happen.  [If it does, sue me. ;-)]
>
> I'm in complete agreement with Albert on this one!
>

The point was to make sure you have the rights you think you have,
or the permission you think you have, before you go violating her rights.
It was a response to Matthias saying it was licensable when nothing of
the sort was ever mentioned as being allowed.


Rod Pemberton

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#28874

Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> writes:
>> The Upgrade Paper Project digitized my "Scientific FORTH"
>> copy. ... For the initial archived scanned copy, where do I need to
>> send the pdf?

Can you upload it to archive.org?  Visit http://archive.org and click
the "upload" link at the upper right of the page.  I think uploading the
pdf should result in the scans being automatically OCR'd by the Archive
servers, if the pdf doesn't already have OCR output.

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#28904

Why should it be licenced at all? Has Harriet Noble given permission for it to be re-licenced? Does she still retain ownership/copyright if it is re-licenced? Just don't go there.

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#28915

On Tuesday, 4 March 2014 08:08:13 UTC, Mark Wills  wrote:
> Why should it be licenced at all? Has Harriet Noble given permission for it to be re-licenced? Does she still retain ownership/copyright if it is re-licenced? Just don't go there.

There are no monetary concerns regarding forth for scientific applications. You can't sell forth to the scientific community. You just can't compete with something like this 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P9HqHVPeik

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#28916

On Tuesday, 4 March 2014 22:58:09 UTC, mike...@gmail.com  wrote:
> On Tuesday, 4 March 2014 08:08:13 UTC, Mark Wills  wrote:
> 
> > Why should it be licenced at all? Has Harriet Noble given permission for it to be re-licenced? Does she still retain ownership/copyright if it is re-licenced? Just don't go there.
> 
> 
> 
> There are no monetary concerns regarding forth for scientific applications. You can't sell forth to the scientific community. You just can't compete with something like this 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P9HqHVPeik


I should elaborate: my original suggestion that we make sure JVN's Scientific Forth book is preserved was purely commemorative. His was a very beautiful mind indeed, and it would've been a tremendous shame had his book been lost to obscurity at this time of transition.

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#28578

On 2/18/14, 8:39 PM, C G Montgomery wrote:
> I'm pleased to inform you that I have been able to establish
> contact with Harriet Noble, Julian Noble's widow and the
> copyright holder for his book Scientific Forth, through an address
> I obtained with the assistance of Josef Gabriel.  She has
> graciously provided, in an email, the following statement:
>
> quote===========
> I hereby state that, as holder of the copyright for Julian Noble?s book
> Scientific Forth, I have no objection to a digital version of this work
> being made publicly available on the internet.
> end quote=======

Wonderful!  I'm glad you didn't give up.

-- David

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#28585

En/Je/On 2014-02-19, C G Montgomery escribió/skribis/wrote:

> quote===========
> I hereby state that, as holder of the copyright for Julian Noble?s book 
> Scientific Forth, I have no objection to a digital version of this work 
> being made publicly available on the internet.
> end quote=======

Great. Thank you for your work.

-- 
Marcos Cruz
http://programandala.net

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#28586

C G Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> writes:
> quote===========
> I hereby state that, as holder of the copyright for Julian Noble?s book 
> Scientific Forth, I have no objection to a digital version of this work 
> being made publicly available on the internet.
> end quote=======
>
> I have told her I will see to it that a copy of that statement will be 
> provided with the text of Julian's book, once a digital version has been
> produced and a suitable location for an archived copy has been chosen.

This is excellent news--thanks for organizing it.  If it's just a matter
of archiving a scanned copy, I'd suggest archive.org which already has a
very large scanned book collection, an automated OCR pipeline, etc, and
is a download-friendly nonprofit with no advertising or user tracking.
Forth.org of course also has a lot of scanned Forth docs including some
books.  Even better would be a TeX conversion like the one for Starting
Forth, though that takes an awful lot of work which there might not be
enough appetite for.

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