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Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth

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On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:11:41 -0400, Rod Pemberton  
<buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:47:17 -0400, JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> wrote:

>> Ting       34 WORDS
>> Brinkhoff  12
>> Pilchota   17
>> B16        43
>> B16SMALL   40
>> GA_F18     45
>
> Please note the misspelling of Plichota.
>
> C.H. Ting is eForth.
> Lars Brinkhoff is lbForth.
> Vic Plichota is v4th.
> B16 and B16Small, I assume, are Bernd Paysan's ...
> GA_F18 is GreenArrays F18.
>
>> I hope we got the numbers right - otherwise please correct and
>> we will change the ExCel tables.
>>
>> But for a project we would like to have a list of words that
>> fit into 4 bits - so 16 words max to be used.
>>
>> Any good suggestions?
>>
>> And NO, we do not want to reinvent Forth.
>> The rest of the words can stay there for later.
>>
>> If you go on holiday to country X you might buy a little
>> booklet at the airport to communicate with the locals
>> (Forthers?), you definitely will not walk around with
>> the Oxford Dictionary of the full word set ...
>
> The issue of the optimal wordset with different constraints,
> e.g., minimal, usable, fast, effective, etc has been discussed
> a number of times in the past on comp.lang.forth.
>
> It's a matter of how primitive you want to go.  (pun intended)
> A primitive (or low-level) Forth word is what does the work.
> for Forths that build up their colon definitions from a small
> wordset.  This design trend started with C.H. Ting's eForth.
> Primitives are the minimal unit of functionality.  You either
> can't factor them anymore, or shouldn't if you don't want your
> Forth to be exceptionally slow.  E.g., stack words, arithmetic,
> logical operations, bitwise operations, etc.  Typically, a
> usable Forth wordset is from 23 to 63, but can range from 9
> to 2500 words
>
> E.g., this minimal wordset which comprises about half (50%)
> of my set of primitives in my Forth, and is near thirty total:
>
> stack operations
> DUP DROP SWAP OVER ROT >R R>
>
> branching
> BRANCH ?BRANCH
>
> @ ! C@ C!
>
> arithmetic
> + - * /
>
> comparison
> < > 0= 0>
>
> bitwise
> AND OR XOR
>
> stack pointers
> RP SP DP
>
> I/O
> KEY EMIT .
>
> bootstrapping words...
> LIT ,
>
> Of course, if you throw out a bunch, say OVER ROT C@ C! * /
> 0> < RP SP DP and add NOT, you've still got 21 of them ...
> How do you get rid of another 5 or so?
>
> E.g., I posted this some years ago which lists the primitive
> counts for a total 20 Forths and Forth standards, as well as
> the primitives used by a few Forths.  Among the list of
> primities, it has two sets of 9 minimal bootstrap words.
> It's at the end of my post after my name.  The link may take
> to you one of Brad Eckert's post.  Mine is after that.
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.forth/KHw28PKZXUk/JrXcjrYshxAJ
>
> You might want to look at Mikael Patel's Minimal Forth Machine
> which has 9 primitives and was posted years ago to comp.lang.forth.
> This post of mine has links:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.forth/BxvCjAs4s9g/LZ4-7e8hfHMJ
>
> As for being ANS, you'll need to pick the ANS equivalents.  Most
> are named the same.  You're not going to find some things you need
> in ANS Core or ANS Core Ext such as LIT BRANCH ?BRANCH etc.
>

 From Koopman's instruction frequencies, you might use these:

DOCOL EXIT @ C@ + = R> >R DUP SWAP ROT AND LIT 0BRANCH BRANCH

 From Anton Ertl's "peep" superinstruction data, you could try
using these for additional low-level words:

0= ! OVER CELLS 2DUP +! R@ <> C! /MOD DROP CELL+ - LSHIFT NIP ?DUP 2DROP

Koopman's
http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/sec6_3.html

Ertl's
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/peep/


Rod Pemberton


-- 
Cars kill more people than guns in the U.S.
Yet, no one is trying to take away your car.

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What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-17 12:47 -0700
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 22:29 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 10:59 +0000
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 12:04 +0100
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 11:19 +0000
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 12:39 +0100
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-03-18 08:05 -1000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 18:34 +0000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 20:05 +0100
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-03-17 19:11 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-19 00:28 -0400
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 01:00 -0400
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 11:33 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-18 22:15 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-19 07:53 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-03-19 17:17 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 01:01 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-18 18:42 -0400
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-18 23:56 +0000
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-19 02:46 +0100
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-19 09:27 +0000
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-18 22:21 -0400
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-19 09:43 +0000
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-20 02:09 -0400
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-20 15:41 +0000
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-29 16:23 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 16:43 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-29 22:53 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-19 08:00 +0100
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-20 02:09 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-20 14:43 +0100
      ...Tiny targets Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-23 15:26 +0100
        Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-23 10:39 -0700
        Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-24 01:18 -0700
          Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-24 17:45 -0700
            Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 00:08 -0700
              Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 00:43 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 07:07 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 08:06 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 15:19 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 12:39 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-25 20:42 +0100
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 16:41 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-25 22:32 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-26 09:35 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-03-26 14:52 +0200
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 16:12 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-26 13:00 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-03-26 11:58 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 07:10 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 07:16 -0700
            Re: ...Tiny targets Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-27 13:01 +0100
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2015-03-18 06:45 -0700
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-18 08:57 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 20:09 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-18 08:59 -0700
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-20 21:47 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-21 02:30 -0700
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-21 17:52 -0700
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-22 01:27 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 13:15 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 13:47 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-22 18:39 -0400
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 16:32 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-26 06:35 +0000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 15:55 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-28 03:36 -0400
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-26 06:34 +0000

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