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Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth

From "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth
Date 2015-03-17 19:11 -0400
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <op.xvnz1ra1v6dtjm@localhost> (permalink)
References <09b0d52b-de4f-4805-9cc1-fc1cc0499ac3@googlegroups.com>

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On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:47:17 -0400, JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> wrote:

> Ting       34 WORDS
> Brinkhoff  12
> Pilchota   17
> B16        43
> B16SMALL   40
> GA_F18     45

Please note the misspelling of Plichota.

C.H. Ting is eForth.
Lars Brinkhoff is lbForth.
Vic Plichota is v4th.
B16 and B16Small, I assume, are Bernd Paysan's ...
GA_F18 is GreenArrays F18.

> I hope we got the numbers right - otherwise please correct and
> we will change the ExCel tables.
>
> But for a project we would like to have a list of words that
> fit into 4 bits - so 16 words max to be used.
>
> Any good suggestions?
>
> And NO, we do not want to reinvent Forth.
> The rest of the words can stay there for later.
>
> If you go on holiday to country X you might buy a little
> booklet at the airport to communicate with the locals
> (Forthers?), you definitely will not walk around with
> the Oxford Dictionary of the full word set ...

The issue of the optimal wordset with different constraints,
e.g., minimal, usable, fast, effective, etc has been discussed
a number of times in the past on comp.lang.forth.

It's a matter of how primitive you want to go.  (pun intended)
A primitive (or low-level) Forth word is what does the work.
for Forths that build up their colon definitions from a small
wordset.  This design trend started with C.H. Ting's eForth.
Primitives are the minimal unit of functionality.  You either
can't factor them anymore, or shouldn't if you don't want your
Forth to be exceptionally slow.  E.g., stack words, arithmetic,
logical operations, bitwise operations, etc.  Typically, a
usable Forth wordset is from 23 to 63, but can range from 9
to 2500 words

E.g., this minimal wordset which comprises about half (50%)
of my set of primitives in my Forth, and is near thirty total:

stack operations
DUP DROP SWAP OVER ROT >R R>

branching
BRANCH ?BRANCH

@ ! C@ C!

arithmetic
+ - * /

comparison
< > 0= 0>

bitwise
AND OR XOR

stack pointers
RP SP DP

I/O
KEY EMIT .

bootstrapping words...
LIT ,

Of course, if you throw out a bunch, say OVER ROT C@ C! * /
0> < RP SP DP and add NOT, you've still got 21 of them ...
How do you get rid of another 5 or so?

E.g., I posted this some years ago which lists the primitive
counts for a total 20 Forths and Forth standards, as well as
the primitives used by a few Forths.  Among the list of
primities, it has two sets of 9 minimal bootstrap words.
It's at the end of my post after my name.  The link may take
to you one of Brad Eckert's post.  Mine is after that.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.forth/KHw28PKZXUk/JrXcjrYshxAJ

You might want to look at Mikael Patel's Minimal Forth Machine
which has 9 primitives and was posted years ago to comp.lang.forth.
This post of mine has links:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.forth/BxvCjAs4s9g/LZ4-7e8hfHMJ

As for being ANS, you'll need to pick the ANS equivalents.  Most
are named the same.  You're not going to find some things you need
in ANS Core or ANS Core Ext such as LIT BRANCH ?BRANCH etc.


Rod Pemberton

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Thread

What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-17 12:47 -0700
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 22:29 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 10:59 +0000
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 12:04 +0100
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 11:19 +0000
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 12:39 +0100
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-03-18 08:05 -1000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 18:34 +0000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 20:05 +0100
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-03-17 19:11 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-19 00:28 -0400
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 01:00 -0400
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 11:33 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-18 22:15 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-19 07:53 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-03-19 17:17 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 01:01 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-18 18:42 -0400
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-18 23:56 +0000
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-19 02:46 +0100
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-19 09:27 +0000
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-18 22:21 -0400
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-19 09:43 +0000
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-20 02:09 -0400
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-20 15:41 +0000
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-29 16:23 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 16:43 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-29 22:53 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-19 08:00 +0100
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-20 02:09 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-20 14:43 +0100
      ...Tiny targets Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-23 15:26 +0100
        Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-23 10:39 -0700
        Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-24 01:18 -0700
          Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-24 17:45 -0700
            Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 00:08 -0700
              Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 00:43 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 07:07 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 08:06 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 15:19 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 12:39 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-25 20:42 +0100
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 16:41 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-25 22:32 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-26 09:35 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-03-26 14:52 +0200
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 16:12 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-26 13:00 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-03-26 11:58 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 07:10 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 07:16 -0700
            Re: ...Tiny targets Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-27 13:01 +0100
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2015-03-18 06:45 -0700
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-18 08:57 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 20:09 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-18 08:59 -0700
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-20 21:47 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-21 02:30 -0700
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-21 17:52 -0700
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-22 01:27 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 13:15 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 13:47 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-22 18:39 -0400
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 16:32 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-26 06:35 +0000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 15:55 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-28 03:36 -0400
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-26 06:34 +0000

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