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Re: Really?

From Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Really?
Date 2017-02-07 09:49 -0600
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <o7cq6n$pua$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <1239a88b-a574-401b-9454-50ac7e000049@googlegroups.com> <5899a408.386236853@news.eternal-september.org>

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On 2/7/2017 5:01 AM, Stephen Pelc wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 06:46:00 -0800 (PST), Mark Wills
> <markwills1970@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "As for Forth, although it has dedicated advocates, it's
>> explicit stack orientation and its lack of modularity limit
>> the scale of Forth programs. One of the largest Forth efforts
>> was an integrated operating system called Valdocs (Valuable
>> Document System) on the Epson QX-10. The software remained buggy
>> couldn't be updated quickly enough for the machine to remain
>> competitive - although you could just as easilly blame the
>> computer's Z-80 processor (since at the time the 8088 based IBM PC
>> and 68000 based Apple Macintosh were being introduced) and difficulty
>> in finding experienced Forth programmers. Whatever the cause, this
>> soured the acceptance of Forth for large scale projects."
>>
>> http://www.cpushack.com/CPU/cpuAppendB.html#Forth
>
> I have met several of the Valdocs people. The critical problems
> with the project were project management problems. In any large
> project, project management is really, really important.
>
> To give an example of a current large Forth project that has
> evolved over 30 years, see the Candy system at
>   http://constructioncomputersoftware.com/
> which is currently built on VFX Forth for Windows. Candy consists
> of 55 Mb of source code in 1.2 million lines of code and generates
> an executable of 27 Mb. I always quote this one because I do a full
> rebuild before each VFX Forth release.
>
> For another Forth-based app, see
>   http://www.micross.co.uk/micross/tracknet/
> Nick Nelson has presented many EuroForth papers over the years.
>
> Leon from Forth Inc has presented several papers on PC projects
> in the last couple of years.
>
> We have many clients with embedded systems of over 500 kb in Flash.
>
> Success or failure of projects is mostly down to project management.
>
> Stephen
>
I worked for a company that wanted to rewrite a large project in 
assembly language  and they promoted an engineer to be Software Manager, 
a very bad idea. He hired several programmers right off school which in 
itself not the end but he allowed them a pretty much unsupervised run of 
the project a bad idea.

They tried to get me involved in the project and I had enough weight in 
the place that I could refuse, I could see the project was doomed, they 
would not listen to the advice of people that were familiar with the 
task at hand. After a year of flailing around the whole team was fired 
and the project was given to the last remaining engineers including 
myself, in less than three month we had the project working and ready to 
demo to customers.

The moral here is that bad management can can sink a ship faster than 
the Titanic, we used the same tools they had and got the job done.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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Really? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 06:46 -0800
  Re: Really? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-02-06 07:20 -0800
  Re: Really? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 08:58 -0800
  Re: Really? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 13:06 -0500
  Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-06 11:25 -0800
  Re: Really? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-07 11:45 +1100
  Re: Really? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-06 15:38 -1000
    Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 09:50 -0800
  Re: Really? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-02-06 23:39 -0500
    Re: Really? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 08:04 -0800
    Re: Really? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-08 11:04 +1100
      Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-07 23:42 -0800
        Re: Really? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-08 20:12 +1100
          Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-08 02:44 -0800
          Re: Really? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-08 17:48 +0000
            Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-08 18:43 +0000
              Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-08 15:24 -0800
            Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-08 16:26 -0800
    Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-07 22:45 -0800
      Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 22:50 -0800
    Re: Really? clozaga@gmail.com - 2017-02-08 21:03 -0800
      Re: Really? clozaga@gmail.com - 2017-02-08 21:04 -0800
      Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 20:01 -0800
        Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-12 16:26 +0000
          Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-12 16:52 -0800
            Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-13 09:49 +0000
              Re: Really? minforth@arcor.de - 2017-02-13 07:03 -0800
              Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-13 13:41 -0800
                Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-13 22:32 +0000
                Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-15 11:42 -0800
                Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-15 20:41 +0000
                Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-17 09:42 -0800
                Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-17 22:22 +0000
          Re: Really? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-12 19:24 -1000
            Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-13 08:49 +0000
  Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-07 11:01 +0000
    Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-07 03:06 -0800
      Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 09:35 -0800
      Re: Really? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-07 17:35 +0000
        Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-07 23:24 -0800
          Re: Really? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-09 08:57 +0000
            Re: Really? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-09 13:24 +0100
              Re: Really? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-11 15:32 +0000
      Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-07 20:42 +0000
        Re: Really? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-07 13:58 -1000
          Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 21:51 -0800
            Re: Really? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 01:47 -0500
              Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 22:52 -0800
                Re: Really? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 03:34 -0500
                Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-08 13:43 +0000
                Re: Really? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-08 15:39 -1000
                Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-08 22:39 -0800
                Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-09 08:56 +0000
                Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-09 14:36 -0800
                Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-10 08:33 +0000
                Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-09 09:03 +0000
                Re: Really? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-09 10:51 +0100
                Re: Really? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-02-09 11:54 +0000
                Re: Really? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-09 09:30 -1000
                Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-09 14:14 +0000
                Re: Really? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-09 14:37 +0000
                Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-09 15:24 +0000
                Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-09 12:01 -0800
                Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-10 01:09 +0000
                Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-09 18:19 -0800
                Re: Really? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-09 16:30 -1000
                Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-09 19:16 -0800
                Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-10 16:29 +0000
                OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-10 17:30 +0000
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-10 11:46 -0600
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-02-10 11:54 -0600
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-10 18:05 +0000
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-10 17:55 +0000
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-10 12:04 -0600
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-10 18:07 +0000
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-10 12:57 -0600
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-10 19:26 +0000
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-10 14:04 -0600
                Re: OT: [ was re: Really?] Foreign aid Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-11 09:35 +0000
                Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-10 16:33 -0800
                Static type checking (was: Really?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-10 11:07 +0000
                Re: Really? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-02-11 15:16 +0000
                Re: Really? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-11 10:20 -0600
                Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 19:02 -0800
                Re: Really? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-10 17:31 +0100
                Re: Really? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-08 15:34 -1000
              Re: Really? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-07 21:15 -1000
              Re: Really? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-07 23:46 -0800
        Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 22:47 -0800
          Re: Really? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 08:52 +0200
    Re: Really? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 06:29 -0500
      Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-07 20:47 +0000
        Re: Really? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 16:23 -0500
          Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-08 09:47 +0000
            Re: Really? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 05:13 -0500
              Re: Really? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-02-08 11:23 +0000
    Re: Really? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-07 09:49 -0600
  Really? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 00:30 -0800
    Re: Really? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-10 10:32 +1100
      Re: Really? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-09 17:22 -0800

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