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Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc

From Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc
Date 2016-08-06 21:28 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <no66cs$88a$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
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On 8/6/2016 6:58 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 10:16:08 PM UTC-7, Cecil - k5nwa wrote:
>> A long time ago I started using Borland Delphi for writing work related
>> and personal software but I could not afford the horribly expensive
>> database capable version at the time. I ended writing my own Self
>> Balancing B-Tree multi key database library, it was complex to figure it
>> out, and it took me a while to get it right, but once it was working I
>> would use it all over the place. It was very fast, it took little space,
>> and was very flexible so for years I used it for all sorts of tools and
>> applications. Yet when I mentioned on this list that it would be nice to
>> have a library with the much simpler link list, you would have thought I
>> said that babies should be starved, and burned alive, some people were
>> all over me criticizing my desire for a convenient link list in a
>> library, after all Forth itself uses linked list.
>
> If you get your self-balancing B-Tree to work, I will put it in the novice-package --- that way you can be sure that nobody will ever use it! --- everything in the novice-package automatically gets dismissed as "crap" by the committee...
>
> I am not aware of any other language in which code-libraries are forbidden. Languages have various levels of support for code-libraries, and the better support the language has, the better the language is. Nobody forbids code-libraries though, other than the ANS-Forth and Forth-200x committees (and COBOL too).
>
> What is sad about this, is that Forth has better support for code-libraries than C does. In C, a struct has to start on offset zero. If the parent struct is made into the first field of the child struct, this won't work because now you need to doubly dereference the field names (use two -> or two . operators). Of course, if you have a struct inheriting from a struct which inherits from another struct, then you have to triply dereference the field names. If you typecast your pointer to the parent struct, you can avoid multiple dereferencing of the field names, but now SIZEOF doesn't work correctly anymore because it gives the parent size rather than the child size. All in all, inheritance in C is a nightmare. By comparison, inheritance in Forth is easy --- yet ANS-Forth culture absolutely forbids having structs inherit from each other --- Pelc went out of his way to give us STRUCT[ which has no purpose at all except to force the starting offset to be zero and hence to make Forth look like C along with C's restrictions against inheritance.
>
> If Forth would embrace inheritance and general-purpose data-structures, this would give Forth an obvious advantage over C --- but the Forth-200x committee seem to be dedicated to imposing C's restrictions on Forth --- the Forth-200x committee wants Forth to be an RPN version of C, with no distinction between Forth and C except postfix-versus-infix (which is really meaningless).
>
>
I been looking at the printed listing and I'm not sure it will be 
practical to translate it to Forth, it makes heavy use of structures, 
pointers to structures. With many people demanding that Forth continue 
to stay in the 1970s, no libraries, no structures, no decently built 
object system, it will be hard to duplicate the Pascal code. Most likely 
I will work eventually in an interface to MySQL and leave it at that, no 
hurry there. I need MySQL capability eventually as I have several web 
sites I maintain and they run on MySQL, I would like to build some 
conversion programs to manipulate and modify MySQL databases used in 
those sites.

First I need to decide on what Forth system I will use for my desktops 
computers, that is why I been playing with different Forth and Forth 
like systems. I will be using two different Forths, one for desktops, 
with decent library system and tools. The other a stripped down Forth 
for embedded systems, I been using eForth for that purpose lately and 
it's not bad for that purpose,  there are plenty of versions available 
for various CPUs, but I have sources to one version that is easily 
migrated, I been using it with FPGA Forth CPUs and it's working well.


>> I also have been looking to see if anyone in the past has created a
>> decent library system, which is another item that is considered heresy
>> in the Forth community here, yet ANS Forth uses primitive libraries but
>> most won't admit it, they are called word sets. Recently I saw a post on
>> ideas for a library system where  you can have public and private words,
>> I will be looking at it next week and see if the ideas are useful for
>> what I need.
>
> As I mentioned in that thread, I had this working under UR/Forth 30 years ago, but I had to delve into UR/Forth internal workings, so my code wasn't Forth-83.
>
> There has been no improvement in ANS-Forth --- this is still banned, but you may be able to get it working for a specific compiler by delving into the internal workings of that compiler.
>
> What is sad about this, is that it is trivial to implement --- most of the time is spent in disassembling the compiler to figure out how dictionary headers are stored internally --- if you have this info though (the compiler-writer obviously does) then the implementation is the work of one hour or less.
>
> This was banned from ANS-Forth specifically for the purpose of making code-libraries difficult to implement --- you end up with a lot of name clashes --- this makes the code-library less useful, proving the point of those you say that code-libraries are taboo.
>
I remember UR/Forth, never owned it, but they advertised all over, maybe 
I should have spent the money but there were many free versions 
available so I used those. I wasn't fond of Forth83 just like WinForth 
later, it tried to have everything but little in terms of useful modern 
programing features.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-02 09:33 -0700
  Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-02 10:35 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-02 11:46 -0700
      Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-03 00:04 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-04 00:41 -0700
          Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-08-04 09:35 -0400
            Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-04 10:08 -0500
  Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-08-02 15:45 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-02 19:56 -0500
      Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-02 22:43 -0700
      Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-03 00:12 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-03 02:42 -0500
          Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-03 10:41 -0700
            Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-03 12:56 -0500
            Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-03 13:09 -0500
              Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-08-03 14:15 -0400
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-08-03 18:00 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-05 20:35 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-06 00:16 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-06 16:58 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-06 18:01 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-06 21:28 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-06 19:46 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-06 22:54 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 21:39 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-06 22:28 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-06 23:49 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-07 02:32 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-07 01:06 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-07 07:05 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-07 13:01 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-07 16:02 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-07 14:20 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-08-08 03:13 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-08 11:25 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-07 13:55 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-07 16:22 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-07 15:03 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Håkan Thörngren <hth313@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 23:02 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-08-07 21:10 -1000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-09 00:36 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-08 09:06 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-07 09:33 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Håkan Thörngren <hth313@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 11:31 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-07 12:35 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-07 16:11 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Håkan Thörngren <hth313@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 22:43 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Håkan Thörngren <hth313@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 22:48 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-08 08:34 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-08 23:59 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-09 13:53 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-10 19:56 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-08-11 00:33 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-11 11:58 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-11 13:16 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-08-11 23:36 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-11 20:49 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-28 11:20 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-28 17:33 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-28 21:10 -0500
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-28 22:49 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-12 23:10 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 20:20 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-07 09:58 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 11:08 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-08 09:10 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-08 10:47 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-08-08 13:44 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc mhx@iae.nl - 2016-08-08 11:32 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-09 06:13 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-09 06:19 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc mhx@iae.nl - 2016-08-09 02:54 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-09 10:22 +0000
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-08-15 20:33 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-16 10:40 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-08-17 02:21 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-17 11:14 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2016-08-03 18:21 -0400
    Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-08-03 02:46 -0400
  Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc endlessboomcapitalism@gmail.com - 2016-08-13 09:51 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-13 12:18 -0700
      Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc endlessboomcapitalism@gmail.com - 2016-08-14 19:13 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-15 07:43 -0700
          Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-15 12:34 -0500
            Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-08-17 22:08 -0700
              Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-18 15:26 -0700
      Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc endlessboomcapitalism@gmail.com - 2016-08-14 19:18 -0700
      Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-15 08:24 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series  - Programming Forth - Stephen Pelc JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-15 08:31 -0700
          Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth- Stephen Pelc "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-19 23:54 +0000
            Re: The Fourth Forth eBook in our little series - Programming Forth- Stephen Pelc JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-20 01:43 -0700

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